Yeah, I'm good. I'm pretty much plastered after coming from work and doing these long debates after getting out of bed ain't working out too well, either. Let's call it a draw.
Creative Director
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At this point, shouldn't ye seriously stop this derail? :p I mean this still isn't Ravounel thread mk 2 or wherever this conversation first started
Like at first it was okay to recap whatever the heck was being referred to, but now this is starting to get silly
Agreed. If folks want to keep talking about Ravounel or whatever, start a dedicated thread please. Let this one focus on Sorshen and New Thassilon; thanks.
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Agreed. If folks want to keep talking about Ravounel or whatever, start a dedicated thread please. Let this one focus on Sorshen and New Thassilon; thanks.At this point, shouldn't ye seriously stop this derail? :p I mean this still isn't Ravounel thread mk 2 or wherever this conversation first started
Like at first it was okay to recap whatever the heck was being referred to, but now this is starting to get silly
Since you're here, what are some holidays of New Thassilon?
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Creative Director
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Since you're here, what are some holidays of New Thassilon?Agreed. If folks want to keep talking about Ravounel or whatever, start a dedicated thread please. Let this one focus on Sorshen and New Thassilon; thanks.At this point, shouldn't ye seriously stop this derail? :p I mean this still isn't Ravounel thread mk 2 or wherever this conversation first started
Like at first it was okay to recap whatever the heck was being referred to, but now this is starting to get silly
Have put zero thought into that. So... dunno.
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Agreed. If folks want to keep talking about Ravounel or whatever, start a dedicated thread please. Let this one focus on Sorshen and New Thassilon; thanks.At this point, shouldn't ye seriously stop this derail? :p I mean this still isn't Ravounel thread mk 2 or wherever this conversation first started
Like at first it was okay to recap whatever the heck was being referred to, but now this is starting to get silly
Returning to maps. . .
Is "Varisia" still going to be presented in the new World Guide as a unitary region? It's pretty well carved-up by territorial states at this point, both north and south of the Storval Rise. Or if it is still presented as a unitary region, will it be accompanied with a map of its subdivisions, a la the Lands of the Linnorm Kings and the River Kingdoms in the Inner Sea World Guide?
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Creative Director
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Agreed. If folks want to keep talking about Ravounel or whatever, start a dedicated thread please. Let this one focus on Sorshen and New Thassilon; thanks.At this point, shouldn't ye seriously stop this derail? :p I mean this still isn't Ravounel thread mk 2 or wherever this conversation first started
Like at first it was okay to recap whatever the heck was being referred to, but now this is starting to get silly
Returning to maps. . .
Is "Varisia" still going to be presented in the new World Guide as a unitary region? It's pretty well carved-up by territorial states at this point, both north and south of the Storval Rise. Or if it is still presented as a unitary region, will it be accompanied with a map of its subdivisions, a la the Lands of the Linnorm Kings and the River Kingdoms in the Inner Sea World Guide?
Varisia is part of the Saga Lands, which also includes New Thassilon, Irrisen, Mammoth Lords, and Linnorm Kings.
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Varisia is part of the Saga Lands, which also includes New Thassilon, Irrisen, Mammoth Lords, and Linnorm Kings.
Oh that's interesting. I presume the Inner Sea Region countries are getting consolidated into regions about the size of countries on other continents, so as to minimize 1) the quasi-Eurocentrism of the setting and 2) the work that would have to be done creating smaller countries on other continents to accomplish Item 1 from the opposite direction?
It didn't really answer my question, though. Are the territorial states of rump-Varisia going to be represented on maps in any way?
And now a follow-up: what other countries are getting consolidated?
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This blog post pretty well covers what they're going to be doing with the new meta-regions. They're not consolidating countries so much as grouping them out-of-world by theme so they can more easily address areas inside them without running into situations like you described, where a tiny country gets more detail simply because it gets the same 2/4 page spread as everywhere else. At least, that's my interpretation of it.
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Creative Director
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Varisia is part of the Saga Lands, which also includes New Thassilon, Irrisen, Mammoth Lords, and Linnorm Kings.Oh that's interesting. I presume the Inner Sea Region countries are getting consolidated into regions about the size of countries on other continents, so as to minimize 1) the quasi-Eurocentrism of the setting and 2) the work that would have to be done creating smaller countries on other continents to accomplish Item 1 from the opposite direction?
It didn't really answer my question, though. Are the territorial states of rump-Varisia going to be represented on maps in any way?
And now a follow-up: what other countries are getting consolidated?
We consolidated regions mostly out of a page-management issue. With 45 or so regions in the first book combined with the decision to spend 4 pages on each region, many areas ended up feeling shorted—large regions like the Darklands and the Mwangi Expanse felt way too brief, for example, when compared to smaller ones like Mediogalti. By consolidating the regions, we avoid that complication and give ourselves a less cluttered method of presenting the Inner Sea region in a book.
ALL of the countries are getting grouped into these regions, but it's in large part an artificial construct for us to organize our words and not a restructuring of political borders in world.
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This blog post pretty well covers what they're going to be doing with the new meta-regions.
/me mentally replaces "Old Cheliax" with "Greater Cheliax," seeing as how "Old Cheliax" was far more extensive than the meta-region.
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So, question. If, as I understand it (boy, me not being quite up to Pillers 2 Deadfire this week and reading the boards instead is getting me a LOT of apparently recent setting infomation I was completely unaware of), if Nocticula has become non-evil and Sorshen (who is simialrly themed) had become non-evil and some succubi lass from Wrath of the Righetous has become non-evil and this sort of thing becomes common knowledge...
How much more are people going to be tacitly encouraged to summon succubi in the mistaken belief that they can be redeemed (and of course the underlying idea being "I can get myself a hawt sex-demon waifu!") and how much easier is the succubi's jobs going to be? And thus will there be something of a noticable spike towards Abyssal power (especially towards whichever succubus lass takes over Nocticula's job? Maybe making the succubi rise in demonic heirarhcy?)
I'm not even being facetious or anything - people is people, and I can't see the denizens of Golarion being anymore immune to the whole "sex appeal redemption" than Earth-humans...
It strikes me as something of an interesting thought, does it not?
Demons just suffered a major setback in the closing of the Worldwound, so that would be a very interesting way to keep them relevant; the redemption of Nocticula would reasonably convince people that evil outsiders are not as locked into their alignment as previously believed.
Well, that probably *would* be the side-effect on low-wisdom arcane caster nerds. :p
Well, that probably *would* be the side-effect on low-wisdom arcane caster nerds. :p
I was more thinking low-wisdom Paladins. Redeeming a demon is an awfully romantic legacy to leave behind.
I don't even specifically mean succubi here, Nocticula opens the floodgates for people to try peace with all sorts of planar beings that otherwise would be written off as non-negotiable forces of evil. This hope could lead to some... unfortunate errors.
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Maybe that's what Nocticula wants. Maybe she's still evil!
I sense a conspiracy theory forming.
I reckon that if you summon/try to diplomacy a succubus to get a waifu means that the whole thing is tainted and thus non-effective.
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Plus all city states had sent expeditions to Xin-Shalast to try to loot it/claim it for themselves, so they are probably bit annoyed that additional party appeared out of nowhere to win that race for them :D
Even if all outcasts want to move to New Thassilon, just accepting outcasts and exiles in general is also gonna add some Ire. So I'm kinda interested in knowing whether Sorshen's mythical charisma is good enough that she is well liked even though she has bad reputation.(both from the past and present)
A bigger problem is that she actually is what Razmir claims to be.
After an army or two abruptly disappear, other nations will tend to "like" her regardless of her reputation.
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My PC group includes an 11,000+ year old Azlanti paladin buried by Sorshen beneath the Sunken Queen. I don't think she will think much of Sorshen's protestations "You have to like me, I'm CN now!"
We're currently on Book 6 of Shattered Star, and have played most of Runelords too (not Runeforge or Book 6, so Karzoug still alive). I'm looking forward to using parts of Return of the Runelords in my campaign but I expect it'll turn out very different from canon.
Oh, good, then she gets to have a personal storyline where she probably falls from grace due to her feelings of personal revenge getting the better of her despite Sorshen genuinely trying for redemption. Of course that is probably after failing completely at doing any lasting harm to the level 20/tier 10 character.
I don't know, sounds like a road to player frustration to me.
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Oh, good, then she gets to have a personal storyline where she probably falls from grace due to her feelings of personal revenge getting the better of her despite Sorshen genuinely trying for redemption.
The character has a legitimate grievance against Sorshen, alignment notwithstanding. If anything, the character's instransigence is an opportunity for Sorshen to do the thing which the passage of time has largely rendered impossible (and in my eyes renders her all but irredeemable): make amends and restitution to one of her victims.
Oh, good, then she gets to have a personal storyline where she probably falls from grace due to her feelings of personal revenge getting the better of her despite Sorshen genuinely trying for redemption.The character has a legitimate grievance against Sorshen, alignment notwithstanding. If anything, the character's instransigence is an opportunity for Sorshen to do the thing which the passage of time has largely rendered impossible (and in my eyes renders her all but irredeemable): make amends and restitution to one of her victims.
Not sure what 'genuinely trying for redemption' here means - in Return Sorshen has decided that CN is more practical than CE for establishing a lasting rule. It's not exactly "I feel really bad about everything I did", which might imply a shift to a Good alignment, just a minor shift away from Evil.
The PC is a Lawful Good Paladin of LN Lissala - the original early Thassilon era Lissala, rather than the LE modern version. The game is 5e so Paladins don't have Alignment restrictions, but need to adhere to their Oath. She is Oath of Devotion and could certainly serve LN Lissala while opposing CN Sorshen without breaking her Oath, although I can imagine her not opposing Sorshen either. I'm not railroading either way. All the PCs are level 20 with Epic Boons. When I stat Sorshen for 5e she'll be at most Challenge 30, which is the highest in the game (Tiamat is Challenge 30) and could certainly be potentially defeated, that's pretty hardcoded into the system.
If anything, the character's instransigence is an opportunity for Sorshen to do the thing which the passage of time has largely rendered impossible (and in my eyes renders her all but irredeemable): make amends and restitution to one of her victims.
That could be interesting, but probably not something demanded by her Oath or her devotion to Lissala. Another issue is she is a fanatical servant of First King Xin - she is currently very sad about having to oppose Xin's mad ghost in the finale of Shattered Star - and Xin has reason to hate Sorshen as one of the leading Runelords who assassinated him. That apart from the PC's resentment at being used as a battery for 11,000 years.
I could imagine the PC ending up working with Sorshen against even worse Runelords like Zutha, who IMC is free at full power and ruling Belkzen, about to conquer Lastwall with his orc and undead legions. I think that could be cool, but certainly not something I would force on the PC. The PCs already rejected overtures from Runelord Krune, who is likewise free and ruling Kaer Maga as his new capital.