Using telekinesis to grapple

[Skaterfoever]

Is there a size limit when using telekinesis to grapple? This discussion came up when my sorcerer leveled up and I decided to take telekinesis

[Sam Phelan]

Moved to Pathfinder RPG Rules Questions.

[blahpers]

Nothing in the spell. Nothing in the general grapple rules. You're good to go as long as you can beat their CMD.

[Syries]

Technically there's nothing stopping (outside of IMHO a justifiable GM fiat) a diminutive character initiating a grapple with a colossal creature if their bonus is high enough.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Syries wrote:

Technically there's nothing stopping (outside of IMHO a justifiable GM fiat) a diminutive character initiating a grapple with a colossal creature if their bonus is high enough.

I have long maintained that any size limit on attempts on Combat Maneuvers is a stupid rule for stupid stupidheads. I'm glad that in the transition from 3.5 to Pathfinder, the size limit was removed from Grappling at least.

I mean, come on! If the Halfling thinks he's so awesome, he can Grapple the Tyrannosaurus, why on Earth would ANYONE not want to see him try?! Succeed or fail: how will the results not be hilarious?

[Ryze Kuja]

The size is taken into account with the Special Size Modifier to the target's CMB/CMD. It is much harder for a diminutive-sized target (-4 CMB/CMD) to grapple a colossal-sized target (+8 CMB/CMD), and it is much easier for a colossal-sized target to grapple a diminutive-sized target, but both are possible.

[Syries]

Oh at the end of the day I agree, if a player builds a halfling to be able to grapple a t-rex they should be able to.

but I do have a hard time wrapping my mind around how, from a thematic standpoint over a mechanical one, they would grapple a t-rex.

If it's a home game and the GM tells me a creature just does not have the ability to hinder a creature 4 sizes bigger than it by means of grappling I definitely would understand.

[ErichAD]

Small joint manipulation? Maybe an arm lock?

[Scott Wilhelm]

Syries wrote:

Oh at the end of the day I agree, if a player builds a halfling to be able to grapple a t-rex they should be able to.

but I do have a hard time wrapping my mind around how, from a thematic standpoint over a mechanical one, they would grapple a t-rex.

If it's a home game and the GM tells me a creature just does not have the ability to hinder a creature 4 sizes bigger than it by means of grappling I definitely would understand.

Nah-UHHH!!!

Get ready to Rumble!

[Moorningstaar]

Syries wrote:

Oh at the end of the day I agree, if a player builds a halfling to be able to grapple a t-rex they should be able to.

but I do have a hard time wrapping my mind around how, from a thematic standpoint over a mechanical one, they would grapple a t-rex.

If it's a home game and the GM tells me a creature just does not have the ability to hinder a creature 4 sizes bigger than it by means of grappling I definitely would understand.

You think that's bad? I had a halfling gunslinger knock a T-Rex prone with a gunshot. I mean, the bullet's the size of my pinkie finger, maybe! How the hell could he have knocked it prone? But by the rules he did.

I did get him to agree to going against CMD instead of touch ac for future attempts, as that was ridiculous.

As to this, no there's nothing wrong with building mighty mouse if you can make it work.

[PFRPGrognard]

Some folks on this thread must get pushed over by five year olds.

That ain't how grappling works.

[Ultrace]

ErichAD wrote:

Small joint manipulation? Maybe an arm lock?

Not to be the killjoy, but even that wouldn't be possible unless your halfling somehow had superhuman strength. The sheer size differences mean that the most it would be able to affect is maybe a claw nail or something...

I would actually allow the attempt. And then I would let them know that their attempt was partially successful -- they are considered grappled, but the T-Rex is not. Essentially, they are hanging onto the colossal beast while it moves about its business, unhindered.

[Scott Wilhelm]

PFRPGrognard wrote:

Some folks on this thread must get pushed over by five year olds.

That ain't how grappling works.

Every time somebody tries to bring scientific reality into the worlds of science fiction or fantasy, somewhere in the world, a catgirl dies.

It's fine to say that Alexander Karelin, the greatest Greco-Roman wrestler in the history, if he were to wrestle a grizzly bear, the bear would break his back and start eating him in 5 seconds where it would normally take the bear 3 seconds against a lesser man. Humans can't wrestle bears. But Hiawatha could wrestle a bear.

You could say that Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of the martial art Aikido, would never be able to Trip an Elephant. But Xena the Warrior Princess could.

You could say that Akebono, the legendary Yokozuna sumo wrestler, the first non-Japanese wrestler to ever be given that title, would never be able to Bull Rush a rhinocerous. But Ram Man from the He Man cartoon could.

Pathfinder and Dungeons and Dragons characters have more in common with Hiawatha, Ram Man, and Xena the Warrior Princess than they do with Alexander Karelin, Morihei Ueshiba, and Akebono. Amiri the Barbarian is really just like Xena the Warrior Princess, only she's just lower level.

Fantasy heroes are made of our imaginations, not bones and meat. The rules should allow for the possibility for a Halfling Sumo Wrestler to Bull Rush a Triceratops. To arbitrarily rule that Bilbobono just can't do that because it's too heavy goes against the whole idea of the heroic fantasy genre.

Ryze Kuja wrote:

The size is taken into account with the Special Size Modifier to the target's CMB/CMD.

Another good point: from a rules and game-mechanics perspective, imposing an arbitrary size limit is redundant, and executing any Combat Maneuver against an opponent more than 2 sizes bigger than you is already extremely difficult. There should be no need to simply overrule a Player Character who is badass enough, desperate enough, or self-deluded enough to try.

For these reasons, I maintain and iterate that the size limit rule is a stupid rule for stupid stupidheads. This paying customer applauds Paizo Publishing for creating the Punishing Kick, Tangle Feet, and Harder they Fall Feats and the Belt of Impossible Maneuver which allow PCs to get around the size limits.

[Undead Catgirl]

BUT BY DYING . . . I LIVE AGAAAAIN!

[Evilserran]

PFRPGrognard wrote:

Some folks on this thread must get pushed over by five year olds.

That ain't how grappling works.

I regularly get knocked over by both my 3 and five year olds, i have several different handicaps that make balancing VERY hard.....

I also think the size thing for grapples was dumb. Pressure points exist in all living things, if you know how to properly use them, you can "grapple" or incapacitate almos anything regardless of size...