So this is probably one of the oldest requests in the book but here goes.
I want to play a human paladin and I'm looking at feats such as:
Bolstered Resilience
Stalwart (improved)
But aside from being tanky and dealing decent damage, I want the paladin to take the attack an ally within range is supposed to receive. Now I remember there being feats for this kind of thing.
Can anyone point me in the right direction or give any other suggestions?
I had a Paladin build kind of like this.
Take the CAUTIOUS WARRIOR trait.
At some point (I was thinking level 5) take a 1 level dip into Monk (unchained for full BAB). Take Dodge as your bonus feat and Crane Style for your level 5 feat.
If you've put 3 ranks into Acrobatics you can now take -2 to hit for +5AC while in Crane Style.
At level 7 take a 1 level dip into UNBREAKABLE FIGHTER and take Stalwart as your level 7 feat. You can now take -2 to attack to give yourself DR:5/-.
At level 9 take Bolstered Resiliance (didn't know this feat existed, so thanks).
At level 11 take Improved Stalwart (-2 to attack for DR:10/- while in Crane style).
This takes a lot of feats (hence the dips), but probably makes you the hardest character to kill with HP damage.
I don't know about feats but Paladins have some spells to take damage in place of their allies. Shield Other is the usual, but Paladin's Sacrifice is another way to do it (although it uses an immediate action so won't be usable with Bolstered Resiliance).
I say just go Pally, don't focus too much in getting massive AC that's not gonna matter against touch attacks and Reflex-targeting effects.
It' not about AC, it's about stacking DR with LoH to make you immune to hp damage.
|
To build a really efficient paladin tank, Take this combination of feats, items and a 1 level dip:
-One level of falcata swashbuckler (sometimes called rondelero swashbuckler). This gives you the ability to parry attacks coming towards you as an opportunity attack, and a better than average weapon. Since you are a paldin, your cha is high and you have more penache than most, so more parries.
-Take the feats martial versatility (falcata), slash from the air and smash from the air. You can now make attack of opportunities against any incoming ranged attacks, eventually including even spell touch attacks and huge/unusual projectiles, and if your melee attack roll is higher, the ranged attack/spell fails. But the best part, YOU CAN ALSO DO THIS TO PROTECT ADJACENT ALLIES. So, flavorfully you just shove them aside and casually slap away that maximized empowered disintegrate that would have one shotted them otherwise. Or that huge rock that would have crushed them. Or that barrage of bullets that no one saw except you, since you are ultra instict Goku.
-Both the above are opportunity attacks so they don't interfere with action economy. Also, combat reflexes is now a very good feat since it gives extra opportunity attacks per round.
-Buy a lesser rod of reach and a lesser rod of extend. Then use the shield other spell (paladin 2) on all your allies. Now, no matter where they are on the battlefield, even way on the other side of the map, you automatically take half the damage they would have received. And unlike them, you heal yourself every turn as a swift action. it doesn't get much more tanking things for your allies than this.
-Worship Iomedae to prepare good hope as a third level spell. This boosts everything everyone else does, including all their saves. If you have spare feats, take encouraging spell and extra traits (good hope) for magical lineage. You can now metamagic cast it for no additional cost at an upgraded +3 to all all saves/attack rolls/ability checks (such as initiaitive) and skill checks. This is perhaps the best overall party buff in the game before the endgame spells. For tanking, the +3 to all saves for everyone will protect them against many spells and effects they otherwise would have failed.
You can combine the above frame with anything else you find flavorful for a tank. I think with the above and the targeted mercy at 6, perhaps added to feywild foundline feat at level 1 if you don't care about the poor fluff there, you have all your defensive and tanking abilities covered and should focus the rest on getting some offensive abilites, so perhaps oath of vengeance as an archetype. And you need power attack anyway.
It' not about AC, it's about stacking DR with LoH to make you immune to hp damage.
DR doesn't apply to energy is my point, and it doesn't prevent you from being useless if otherwise attacked through other means as controlling abilities, terrain tricks and so on.
I prefer to build more generally for this reason, rather than multi-dip builds.
I had a Paladin build kind of like this. ...
Now this does seem interesting and some parts are definitely useful even if I don't take the build entirely but I do indeed wonder about things as spell damage or super natural. Knowing my DM he will just exploit that weakness. What would you suggest?
... -Take the feats martial versatility (falcata), slash from the air and smash from the air. ...
Correct me if I'm wrong but that feat requires you to be a 4th level fighter so aren't I dipping more than just one level in swashbuckler?
I had a Paladin build kind of like this. ...Now this does seem interesting and some parts are definitely useful even if I don't take the build entirely but I do indeed wonder about things as spell damage or super natural. Knowing my DM he will just exploit that weakness. What would you suggest?
I had this planned on a Human Paladin, so I took the UNSCATHED trait and use the human FCB to get some elemental resistance in acid/cold/fire/electricity.
He doesn't have th best combat numbers, but if you stand in front of your allies with a reach weapon you can convince the enemies to attack you. When it's boss-killing time you've got Smite Evil, Full BAB and Power Attack.
Between your saves, healing and DR/ER you should be pretty well covered. Your weakness is that you won't have the damage output of a different build because you've put all your resources into not-dying.
Stack Fey Foundling, Greater Mercy, and Extra Channeling into a paladin -- and, so long as you're not one-shotted, are basically unkillable.
... -Take the feats martial versatility (falcata), slash from the air and smash from the air. ...
Rereading what you said just gives me more to doubt about. Even the "cut from the air" feat which you didn't bother looking up for the correct name even states specifically ranged attacks while parry and riposte specifically states melee attacks. So either I'm missing something or this was a troll.
I had a Paladin build kind of like this. ...Now this does seem interesting and some parts are definitely useful even if I don't take the build entirely but I do indeed wonder about things as spell damage or super natural. Knowing my DM he will just exploit that weakness. What would you suggest?I had this planned on a Human Paladin, so I took the UNSCATHED trait and use the human FCB to get some elemental resistance in acid/cold/fire/electricity.
..
While I like the idea I don't think you can use that trait afterwards. If you have no resistance from the start then no resistance should be upped by 2 I'd wager. Even if you get resistance in the future.
Stack Fey Foundling, Greater Mercy, and Extra Channeling into a paladin -- and, so long as you're not one-shotted, are basically unkillable.
By taking feats (didn't know greater mercy) such as these, that'll prevent me from the part where I take the hits of enemies for my allies.
|
|
Rereading what you said just gives me more to doubt about. Even the "cut from the air" feat which you didn't bother looking up for the correct name even states specifically ranged attacks while parry and riposte specifically states melee attacks. So either I'm missing something or this was a troll.
Gee, thanks. Well, yeah. I did misquote the feat since it's actually Martial Focus, which totally doesn't have like 50 very similarly named feats. But here I spelt it for you, since you seem to not bother looking up the weapon mastery feat entries which the other two feats fall under and take all but two seconds to realize it had to be this feat instead, since that is called out there specifially as the qualifying feat for the weapon mastery feats if youre not a fighter. I guess that makes us even, you're welcome.
I have no clue what you're on about regarding parry and reposte. Parry is a class feature to block only melee attacks. It seems you somehow believe you need to combine this with something else, for reasons unclear to me. It is however true that both parry and the below two feats are all opportunity attacks.
For everything other than melee attacks, you have these two feats:
Cut from the Air (Weapon Mastery)
Prerequisite(s): Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +5, weapon training class feature with a melee weapon.
Benefit(s): When a ranged attack is made against you or a target adjacent to you, you can cut the weapon (or ammunition) out of the air, deflecting the attack so the target takes no damage. As an attack of opportunity, make a melee attack roll at your highest bonus. If the result is greater than the attack roll total of the ranged attack, the attack is deflected. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by spell effects cannot be deflected.
Smash from the Air (Weapon Mastery)
Your powerful and swift attacks can slice ranged attacks out of the air.
Prerequisite(s): Str 13, Cut from the Air, Power Attack, base attack bonus +9, weapon training class feature with a melee weapon.
Benefit(s): You can use Cut from the Air against unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by spell effects. Spell effects that do not require attack rolls cannot be deflected.
Take care that the below one is no longer PFS legal, in case your character is for pathfinder society. In that case, I still believe martial focus and cut from the air are worth it though.
Also, I do not believe other feats exist that allow you to take damage for your allies the way cut from the air and lesser metamagic rod reached Shield Other spells can. You are very tight on feats and better served realying on spells and possibly class features. There's the sacred shield or divine defender/guardian archetypes which offer some added defense, but you should think very hard on giving up smite evil and your main source of damage, even as a tank.
... -Take the feats martial versatility (falcata), slash from the air and smash from the air. ...Rereading what you said just gives me more to doubt about. Even the "cut from the air" feat which you didn't bother looking up for the correct name even states specifically ranged attacks while parry and riposte specifically states melee attacks. So either I'm missing something or this was a troll.
That's a real hostile tone to take when talking to someone who's trying to help you.
Cut/Smash From The Air are fairly feat-intensive for a Paladin, but they do allow you to block attacks directed at your allies. Opportune Parry won't let you protect your allies, but they negate damage directed at you and fit a similar theme to Cut/Smash From The Air.
Re: Unscathed, it definitely works the way I said it. If this is a home game you can check with your GM (worth doing for most traits), if it's for PFS you should be fine.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
By taking feats (didn't know greater mercy) such as these, that'll prevent me from the part where I take the hits of enemies for my allies.Slim Jim wrote:
Stack Fey Foundling, Greater Mercy, and Extra Channeling into a paladin -- and, so long as you're not one-shotted, are basically unkillable.
--You need to lock down the part where you can survive those additional hits before you go looking for more than your share.
If you're human, you could have all three of those feats by third level as a straight-class.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Archon Style and Vanguard Style both allow you to protect your allies in combat. They're kinda feat intensive for paladin though.
The Antagonize feat and spells like Compel Hostility and Knight's Calling will help get the enemy to target you instead of your allies in the first place rather than letting you intercept the attacks. The spells allow saves, though, so boosting the DCs and/or having other party members reduce the enemy's saves would be a good idea.
An old (here updated) Paladin tank-ish concept of mine went like this:
Unchained Scaled Fist Monk 1 and Paladin of Sarenrae, focus on DEX and CHA. Go DEX scimitar with Dervish Dance. Sarenrae Paladin may take Crusader's Flurry at level 5, which means Unchained Flurry of Blows with a Dervish Dance Scimitar. You gain your stacked DEX and CHA to AC with no armor on, which is just awesome from both a mechanical and roleplay perspective.
If you take Unsanctioned Knowledge, you can pick up Mirror Image and Displacement, which is just crazy good for a 'tank'. Also some other really cool options...
On the 'defend the party' angle, there's Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf with Amateur Swashbuckler: Dodging Panache - gain a Panache pool and then use CHA and Panache to dodge and dance around the battlefield with a reach scimitar. Oh, and Cornugon Stun with Scaled Fist Monk/ Paladin of Sarenrae/ Crusader's Flurry allows for CHA-based Stunning Fist attacks with scimitar.
This original concept turned out pretty fun-time in the days before there was Scaled Fist Unchained Monk. With that option on the table...
Unfortunately the Blue Scarf Swordmaster's flair doesn't work with scimitars, since the item calls out "light or one-handed piercing weapon".
Unfortunately, none of the LG-adjacent dieties have rapiers as their favored weapon.
Dervish dance lets you treat a scimitar as such a weapon for feats and class abilities. It's not a huge stretch to let it work with the flair too (outside PFS.)
Tho' for sticklers there's the black feather hood's flair which works with any weapon to a similar overall effect.
I say just go Pally, don't focus too much in getting massive AC that's not gonna matter against touch attacks and Reflex-targeting effects.I didn't see anyone mention this, but Paladins can cast Shield Other. It does not look to me like Damage taken from Shield Other bypasses DR.
If you are taking Stalwart. I recommend playing a Half Orc. One of the Prereqs for Stalwart is Endurance, and Half Orcs can get Endurance as an Alternate Racial Trait.
I'm, like, myeh on Stalwart. --You can only pull DR 5 out of it, and, if you're seriously pursuing a Defensive Fighting build, you can easily generate a lot more than +5 in Dodge bonuses to AC.
I'm, like, myeh on Stalwart. --You can only pull DR 5 out of it, and, if you're seriously pursuing a Defensive Fighting build, you can easily generate a lot more than +5 in Dodge bonuses to AC.I say just go Pally, don't focus too much in getting massive AC that's not gonna matter against touch attacks and Reflex-targeting effects.I didn't see anyone mention this, but Paladins can cast Shield Other. It does not look to me like Damage taken from Shield Other bypasses DR.
If you are taking Stalwart. I recommend playing a Half Orc. One of the Prereqs for Stalwart is Endurance, and Half Orcs can get Endurance as an Alternate Racial Trait.
Well with IMPROVED STALWART you can get DR:10/- (and it only takes 1 more feat).
Having said that, 4 feats is a big investment for a Paladin, so it's not the go-to for negating hp-damage.Also combining it with Bolstered Resliliance nets you DR:20/- when you need it ... but again that's more feats.
Well with IMPROVED STALWART you can get DR:10/- (and it only takes 1 more feat).
So now we have Diehard, Endurance, Stalwart, and Improved Stalwart (four feats) detracting from pursuing a maximal defensive-fighting concept (in additional to other things your character will have going on), and in order to realize that DR10 you need to have your fighting defensively bonus that high in the first place...which is going to be very difficult without spare feat slots. And, if it were that high, how often do you expect to get hit to even need that DR, and why would a paladin -- already the highest damage soak in the game -- need so much? Is he expecting to face way-over-the-top-of-the-CR-curve challenges that would flat-out splik the rest of the party in an instant?
Basically, the hypothetical build has taken four or so feats to get AC+10 from defensive fighting mechanics, then thrown that AC bonus away to convert it into DR10 gained from four or so other feats. What paladin not near retirement has room for all this?
Basically, the hypothetical build has taken four or so feats to get AC+10 from defensive fighting mechanics, then thrown that AC bonus away to convert it into DR10 gained from four or so other feats. What paladin not near retirement has room for all this?
The way Improved Stalwart works you only need to get AC+5 for fighting defensively and it will convert it to DR:10. But yes you're correct 4 feats on a Paladin is a LOT of feats. I did propose in my first post a way to do this (2 dips and a trait), but I do understand that even this is a huge investment for a Paladin who already has great abilities available. As Scott Wilhelm said, this is giving the OP options.
As for "How close to retirement", Improved Stalwart comes online at level 11 (at the earliest). For PFS this would be the end of your career, think of it as a capstone. If you're planning on playing to later levels remember that Paladins get DR:5/Evil at level 17, and DR:10/Evil at level 20, so it may not be worth 7 feats and a trait for something you'll get anyway if you're playing at that level =P
If he has his Fey Foundling and Greater Mercy squared away, and didn't dump his charisma, he'll be last person in the party to drop, and not until after everyone else has already been dead for at least a couple rounds.
In PFS, concentrate on maintaining a positive attrition ratio regards DPR dished out versus healing expenses (which, for a paladin, should ideally be near zero), and being a team player aware of your character's class strengths (i.e., remind everyone about your aura bonuses, see if there's feats or gear to extend their power and/or range, and get in the habit of visiting the city watch or other in-mod officials for diplo-intel because being charismatic and lawful-good will opens doors for you which remain closed to nefarious riffraff, etc).