Dunno, I'm still not completely clear on what your perceived problem is, actually.
Actually, I'm not really sure here either, can you clarify this?
We've got a few things covered:
- They are heavy, which carrying capacities can be a problem, and drowning.
I think we've gone through this more than enough. High STR characters who don't mind carrying a heavy-load can carry a metric ton of stuff - way more than a low-STR character who's trying to stay under their light-load limit.
- Armor check penalties are abound for skills.
There are ways around this, or you can just let someone else cover the skills that suffer from armour-check penalties.
- Mobility is also a problem for travelling, sneaking and even attacking.
Ok this might actually be a part of the problem you're having. You only take an armour-check penalty to attack-rolls if you're not proficient with that armour. A Fighter wearing Full-Plate isn't taking a -6 to all attack-rolls. A Rogue wearing Full-Plate would if they didn't spend the feats on proficiency, but that's why Rogues wear light armour.
Traveling isn't a hige problem. Overland travel you're probably on horses or in wagons (or sailing near the land), so Armour won't have much to do with it.
Skills I think we've already covered.
I recommend making a high STR character and playing them, see what you think.
- Mobility is also a problem for travelling, sneaking and even attacking.Ok this might actually be a part of the problem you're having. You only take an armour-check penalty to attack-rolls if you're not proficient with that armour.
I think that was about the trouble of getting close enough to attack in one round.
Using a Reach Weapon is an option, but they tend to be two-handed, and we want a shield.
There are various other ways of achieving greater reach (Lunge feat, for example).
Or we could increase movement with mounted combat or magic or feats.
An option I've seen is to make a Dwarf Cleric with Full Plate and a Tower Shield. No proficiency, no mithral. And no weapon.
You're slow, but so are all dwarves. You get massive penalties to physical skills and attacks, but since you're a full caster, you probably don't need to do those things.
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An option I've seen is to make a Dwarf Cleric with Full Plate and a Tower Shield. No proficiency, no mithral. And no weapon.
This is a terrible idea. Full-Plate has an armour check penalty of -6, a Tower shield has a penalty of -10. That's a -16 to all STR/DEX based skills. One of those skills is Acrobatics ...
Acrobatics DC’s to Cross Narrow Surfaces:
Greater than 3 feet wide: 0**No Acrobatics check is needed to move across these surfaces unless the modifiers increase the DC to 10 or higher.
Congratulations you now have to make a DC:16 Acrobatics check to walk.
You know characters fully decked in big armors and such, probably wielding a two-handed weapon or a shield? Yeah, how would you make them viable for adventuring?
- They are heavy, which carrying capacities can be a problem, and drowning.
- Armor check penalties abound for skills.
- Mobility is also a problem for travelling, sneaking and even attacking.The thing is that... you just can't forbid someone to play such a character. I mean, if your player wants to play Reinhardt or Steiner, you should just let him/her to do. If s/he wants to be a devoted bodyguard, "go for it".
What classes, feats, skills, abilities and items would make it easier for these characters to be adventurers and not burdens? I say "classes", because fighters, paladins, cavaliers, samurias and certain archetypes can become a walking tank, so anything goes.
Any class granting a Fighter's Armor Training class feature will eventually ameliorate heavy armor penalties, potentially down to nothing at all with the right selection of other feats and gear.
Note that Cavaliers waive armor-check penalties while mounted right from 1st level. (But they're screwed if they fall off their horse while fording that raging river without ranks in Swim, so maybe toss a point or two at that, yeah....)
- Mobility is also a problem for travelling, sneaking and even attacking.Ok this might actually be a part of the problem you're having. You only take an armour-check penalty to attack-rolls if you're not proficient with that armour.I think that was about the trouble of getting close enough to attack in one round.
Using a Reach Weapon is an option, but they tend to be two-handed, and we want a shield.
There are various other ways of achieving greater reach (Lunge feat, for example).
Or we could increase movement with mounted combat or magic or feats.
An option I've seen is to make a Dwarf Cleric with Full Plate and a Tower Shield. No proficiency, no mithral. And no weapon.
You're slow, but so are all dwarves. You get massive penalties to physical skills and attacks, but since you're a full caster, you probably don't need to do those things.
Emphasis mine
That's exactly it, that's one problem to cover, as your opponents might stay out of reach or shoot with ranged weapons or spells. If you have a heavy armor, your speed and overall mobility are impeded. Yes, you will better tank hits, but... you'll also be an easy target for other kinds of attacks.
If you want to wear heavy armor and use a shield, but you allow yourself to have impeded movement, you did it to your character.
There are PLENTY of work arounds.
If you can't keep up with just random adventuring movement... your own fault.
If you can't close the distance with the enemy, or allow them to just avoid you... your own fault.
Pathfinder has a feat for literally everything... and if you fail both your character and your party by being immobile, it's your fault.
Given the number of big dumb fighters I have played, and played with... if you are holding your party back, you absolutely did it wrong.
You should be the carry everyone without the climb or swim, guy.
You should be the jump across the gap with a rope, guy.
You should be the throw the Rogue over the wall, guy.
You are the party's Olympian, own it, do it right, or don't do it at all.
You pick an idiot simple, three feat build, and stick to that. Fill up your feats with adventuring and survival feats... like Run, Acrobatic, Dodge, Mobility, Skill Focus, Sea Legs... literally all of the feats available to make your character suck less.
Ever heard of Additional Traits? Use it.
That's exactly it, that's one problem to cover, as your opponents might stay out of reach or shoot with ranged weapons or spells. If you have a heavy armor, your speed and overall mobility are impeded. Yes, you will better tank hits, but... you'll also be an easy target for other kinds of attacks.
Do you often fight enemies that are between 120 and 105 feet away? That's the area where the armor's speed reduction makes a difference whether a hastened character can charge the target or not. For non-charge, 60 or 55 feet away.
Seriously, once your party has Haste, or you can afford Boots of Speed, movement speed reduction won't be a problem.
OP is bringing up the martials can't have nice things, I think...
We can...
Don't be dumb...
You actually can jump/swim/climb like the BEST of all...
Adventuring be d@mned, you got this...
An option I've seen is to make a Dwarf Cleric with Full Plate and a Tower Shield. No proficiency, no mithral. And no weapon.This is a terrible idea. Full-Plate has an armour check penalty of -6, a Tower shield has a penalty of -10. That's a -16 to all STR/DEX based skills. One of those skills is Acrobatics ...
Congratulations you now have to make a DC:16 Acrobatics check to walk.Acrobatics DC’s to Cross Narrow Surfaces:
Greater than 3 feet wide: 0**No Acrobatics check is needed to move across these surfaces unless the modifiers increase the DC to 10 or higher.
Wouldn't this apply even if the cleric were proficient? Have pretty much all players playing characters with tower shields been Doing It Wrong™?
Congratulations you now have to make a DC:16 Acrobatics check to walk.
This is not correct. The ACP is (as the name says) a penalty, not a modifier - the modifiers are the ones on listed in the "Acrobatics Modifiers" table in the skill's description. The penalty is also applied to the skill check, and not on the DC. A check with a 16 penalty and a DC of 0 is not the same as a check with no penalty and a DC of 16, even though the chance is the same.
I thought the accepted way to play a character in full plate without proficiency was be a psychic. As long as you don't need to make attack rolls, and are fine going last in initiative order, you can cast while being encased in an metal box with strategic viewing and breathing holes in it.
Congratulations you now have to make a DC:16 Acrobatics check to walk.This is not correct. The ACP is (as the name says) a penalty, not a modifier - the modifiers are the ones on listed in the "Acrobatics Modifiers" table in the skill's description. The penalty is also applied to the skill check, and not on the DC. A check with a 16 penalty and a DC of 0 is not the same as a check with no penalty and a DC of 16, even though the chance is the same.
Ooh, you know what I think you're right. I rescind my previous statement.
(I guess that also answer's Blaphers' question)
Congratulations you now have to make a DC:16 Acrobatics check to walk.This is not correct. The ACP is (as the name says) a penalty, not a modifier - the modifiers are the ones on listed in the "Acrobatics Modifiers" table in the skill's description. The penalty is also applied to the skill check, and not on the DC. A check with a 16 penalty and a DC of 0 is not the same as a check with no penalty and a DC of 16, even though the chance is the same.Ooh, you know what I think you're right. I rescind my previous statement.
(I guess that also answer's Blaphers' question)
Nice save, Derklord! My vanilla fighter and tower shield cavalier were worried for a bit there.
As long as you don't need to make attack rolls, and are fine going last in initiative order, you can cast while being encased in an metal box with strategic viewing and breathing holes in it.
Initiative isn't affected by ACP. Boosting initiative to be higher then that of a dex-based character is pretty easy, actually.
(I guess that also answer's Blaphers' question)
That was intended! I though it sounded wrong, but only Blaphers post made me check the actual wording.
One of the simpler solutions to this problem is grabbing a level of brawler so that you can use martial flexibility to pickup the advanced armor training feat and grab adaptable training allowing you to retrain your skills several times per day as long as you keep those skills trained in Acrobatics, Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (engineering), Profession (soldier), Ride, or Swim. Spend one of your two skill points on perception and the other one all in the same one of these feats, and you can change it a few times per day.
If movement speed was a problem, you could also use martial flexibility to pick up armored sprint in the same way.