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The AoO occurs as they move out of square X
The readied action occurs as you enter square Y
I would say that younhave to move out of square X before entering square Y, so the AoO wouod happen first.
Also no you wouldn't get 2 AoO's. You only ever provoke once (per enemy) for a single move action.
If you want 2 attacks you could ready an action to attack them when they come within 15 feet. After the readied attack triggers you'd get your AoO if they move out of your threatened square (You get 2 attacks from one enemy move action because one attack is a readied action and not an AoO).
The AoO occurs as they move out of square X
The readied action occurs as you enter square Y
I would say that younhave to move out of square X before entering square Y, so the AoO wouod happen first.
Also no you wouldn't get 2 AoO's. You only ever provoke once (per enemy) for a single move action.
If you want 2 attacks you could ready an action to attack them when they come within 15 feet. After the readied attack triggers you'd get your AoO if they move out of your threatened square (You get 2 attacks from one enemy move action because one attack is a readied action and not an AoO).
There is only one action, moving from square X to square Y.
The readied action occurs first, you teleport without getting the AoO.
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Charge is rather an all-in Mainchance option, and it is telegraphed besides. If you make rulings to mitigate those risks it becomes your only option if it is available at all. This is true, both fo the GM (NPCs) or the players (PCs). Since the PCs will more reasonably know your demons are teleporters, they rather deserve what happens if they over-rely on charge. Now feinting that charge to hopefully cause missed actions, and not making this trick so obviously a fight-winner. This gives the edge when one side can reasonably expect teleportation as a tactic. I both disagree with your ruling and you spoiler's reason for ruling that way. Also, Meirrils pique as a GM, being predictable as a GM deserves tactics being developed, it isn't cheating, and the teleportation trick causes lost lost actions as often as often as successes if you aren't predictable. This isn't rocket science.
The readied action occurs first, you teleport without getting the AoO.Incorrect, if they have 15ft reach the attack of opportunity triggers before they actually enter the 10ft away square (it occurs as they go to exit the 15ft square).
This is why when you have a reach weapon and someone charges you, if you trip as an AoO they fall prone in the 10ft square, not the 5ft square.
So they'd trigger the AoO as they leave the 15ft square, and then get their readied action when the person enter the 10ft square.
The original scenario was with 10' reach.
If the triggers occur at different points, the answer changes. (You are now moving from X -> Y -> Z)
Charge is rather an all-in Mainchance option, and it is telegraphed besides. If you make rulings to mitigate those risks it becomes your only option if it is available at all. This is true, both fo the GM (NPCs) or the players (PCs). Since the PCs will more reasonably know your demons are teleporters, they rather deserve what happens if they over-rely on charge. Now feinting that charge to hopefully cause missed actions, and not making this trick so obviously a fight-winner. This gives the edge when one side can reasonably expect teleportation as a tactic. I both disagree with your ruling and you spoiler's reason for ruling that way. Also, Meirrils pique as a GM, being predictable as a GM deserves tactics being developed, it isn't cheating, and the teleportation trick causes lost lost actions as often as often as successes if you aren't predictable. This isn't rocket science.
Mechanically there is no way to feint a charge, and the readied action is triggered by actual movement.
So, just to be sure, even without a feint, the readied action doesn't happen, and the action is lost, right? Also, charging versus a reach fighter is risky as well, even without teleportation, so neither the charge or readying versus charge are 100%.
So, just to be sure, even without a feint, the readied action doesn't happen, and the action is lost, right? Also, charging versus a reach fighter is risky as well, even without teleportation, so neither the charge or readying versus charge are 100%.
In the case of a charge, the charge is lost if something interrupts the movement or the target of the charge moves in a way that invalidates it.
In the case of the readied action, if the trigger never occurs the action never goes off.
Can you also voluntarily abort a charge if you think it looks too risky, say because that reach fighter just looks a bit too ready for you?
Can you also voluntarily abort a charge if you think it looks too risky, say because that reach fighter just looks a bit too ready for you?
You would have to make that decision before you triggered his readied action or AoO.
The original scenario was with 10' reach.The readied action occurs first, you teleport without getting the AoO.Incorrect, if they have 15ft reach the attack of opportunity triggers before they actually enter the 10ft away square (it occurs as they go to exit the 15ft square).
This is why when you have a reach weapon and someone charges you, if you trip as an AoO they fall prone in the 10ft square, not the 5ft square.
So they'd trigger the AoO as they leave the 15ft square, and then get their readied action when the person enter the 10ft square.
This is incorrect. The OP said: "Suppose I have 15 ft reach and the travel cleric domain ..."
If you only had 10' reach then yes, the readied actio would trigger when you enter the square 10' away, and the AoO would occur when you left that square.
So if they move towards you, they can change direction. If they charge you...technically its a botched charge since they can't continue traveling in a straight line to get to you. But if you did this teleport thing often I'd get pissy and as a GM I'd allow the enemy to continue the charge as long as they could do a valid charge from their current position to your new location.
If you're talking about changing direction during a charge then that's against the rules. This is the rules forum, so I just want to point that out.
Also if your players are playing tactically and you break the rules to stop them then you're invalidating their choices. This seems like a very "GM vs Players" mentality, and unless it's what everyone signed up for this kind of thinking has been known to break up groups.
PS, there are options to change direction during a charge, WHEELING CHARGE is the most obvious, but I'm sure there would be others.
Not sure if Mr Charisma had all his pronouns correct but believe his intent is correct.
Woops =P
It should have read like this:
The AoO occurs as they move out of square X
The readied action occurs as
youthey enter square YI would say that
youthey have to move out of square X before entering square Y, so the AoO would happen first.Also no you wouldn't get 2 AoO's.
YouA creature only ever provokes once (per enemy) for a single move action.
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If you're talking about changing direction during a charge then that's against the rules.
True, but there are some very tricky issues when someone readies an action to move. It doesn't have to be teleporting; the player can say something like, "I ready an action to walk away as soon as I've made my AoO."
A GM might well start adding house-rules to prevent the player from abusing the rules as they are.
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you know you can just ready to attack after you take an aoo.
trigger it as "as soon as i finish taking an aoo on approaching target' or something. you don't have to have the trigger off someone else.
hack you can trigger a ready action at almost anytime if you trigger it to go off "as soon as i say 'XYZ' " since you can talk as free action out of turn. (i used it for gunslinger with saying 'boom')
If you're talking about changing direction during a charge then that's against the rules.True, but there are some very tricky issues when someone readies an action to move. It doesn't have to be teleporting; the player can say something like, "I ready an action to walk away as soon as I've made my AoO."
A GM might well start adding house-rules to prevent the player from abusing the rules as they are.
I don't want this to escalate too much, but I don't see this as even close to "Abuse". In this scenario the player has given up their turn to ready an action. The action they've readied negates an opponent's turn, but doesn't have any real effect on combat (other than to negate an opponent's turn). To accomplish this task the player has also presumably used up some daily resources (spell/etc to teleport). The enemy has NOT used a limited resource.
Compare this to counter-spelling. You're spending your action (and resources) to negate the enemy's action (and resources). Counter-spelling is usually considered a sub-par option. This option is slightly less powerful than counter-spelling (you're not using the enemy's resources).
This also depends on the enemy charging. If the enemy doesn't charge then you've wasted your action for nothing.
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To accomplish this task the player has also presumably used up some daily resources (spell/etc to teleport). The enemy has NOT used a limited resource.
The PC has used up 10 feet of their 100 feet per day Travel Domain ability; the enemy has used up one of the three rounds that has left to live before the party's ranged attacks and AoOs kill it. Advantage: PC.
And that's assuming they teleport. What if it's just the PC moving their fifty foot base speed? That costs nothing.
This also depends on the enemy charging. If the enemy doesn't charge then you've wasted your action for nothing.
Or it moves up to you in any way, and you just move out of its range. If it's a melee-focused enemy and the rest of the party are standing back, what else is it going to do?
In any case where the party has a numbers advantage, spending an action to negate the enemy's action is powerful. If a party of level 8 PCs is fighting a solo lich (or even a lich with some trivial minions), and one of the party manages to counterspell the lich's only action for the turn, that's a good thing.
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Holy sht, this blew up. Thanks for all the responses. If anyone is curious, the reason I asked about this is for countering pounce. Specifically synthesist pounce.
Im trying to find ways to avoid getting 1-rounded by multi attack pounce, which means I need a way to stop them from just charging every round. This gives me a viable option to play a sort of poke-game with a pouncer. Forcing them to trade hit-for-hit instead of 5+ hits vs my s$@~ty iteratives. I could never beat a well-built synth in a slugfest.
That's a tough fight! Pounce is very strong. The odds are against you. As you've likely deduced, your best option is to trip or otherwise prevent the Pounce from landing. Even with a good CMB and Tandem Trip feat the pounce will eventually get through. Pounce defeats reach tactics in much the same way that reach tactics defeat non-pouncing multi-attackers.
pounce need a charge - straight line mostly. your best option is to make it a fight around corners - stone shape or walls etc. also if you can summon as standard action (which there are a at least 3 feats for and more options otherwise) summon monsters into the charge lane after you take your aoo.
as for fighting a synth. try going for the eidolon with spells that send it back, or rendering the summoner unconscious. there are also cheese ways to stack fear effects that have no save to force him to run away if he gets too close. (for example a skald with the rage power that make adjusted enemies shaken. giving it to party members \summon monsters with rage song)
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The AoO occurs as they move out of square X
The readied action occurs as you enter square Y
I would say that younhave to move out of square X before entering square Y, so the AoO wouod happen first.
Also no you wouldn't get 2 AoO's. You only ever provoke once (per enemy) for a single move action.
If you want 2 attacks you could ready an action to attack them when they come within 15 feet. After the readied attack triggers you'd get your AoO if they move out of your threatened square (You get 2 attacks from one enemy move action because one attack is a readied action and not an AoO).
There is only one action, moving from square X to square Y.
The readied action occurs first, you teleport without getting the AoO.
** spoiler omitted **
If a GM is going to play gotcha with exact wording of a readied action, then one just changes the readied action to "I ready an action for X with a trigger of I take an AoO".
GM's really should just understand the players intent behind declaring a readied action. This isn't a wish spell...
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).
Resolve the AoO immediately, then resolve the Readied Action.
Quicker cleric summons:
2 Ally Across Time
3 Summon Ancestral Guardian
5 Army Across Time
9 Wooden Phalanx
Pounce requires charging.
Difficult terrain prevents it.
Obstacles and active critters can prevent it.
It requires line of sight.
If you are in sufficient darkness and it cannot see then it cannot pounce.
If you are in obscuring mist then it cannot charge.
If another can land a Slow spell, it will be staggered and that shuts down pounce since it is not allowed a full round action.
I recently used this tactic with my cleric. I used it to AoO then dimension hop to it's other side. This left it easily flanked, since it was in a corridor.
Bonus was it was a giant that was squeezing, so it lost some AC and BAB. With me on one side and the rogue on the other, it died to the two of us.
/cevah
Difficult terrain prevents it.
The Synthesist is flying.
If another can land a Slow spell, it will be staggered and that shuts down pounce since it is not allowed a full round action.
That's not true, a staggered character can still charge up to their movement speed, and since pounce only asks for a charge, you still get all your attacks.
Difficult terrain prevents it.The Synthesist is flying.
Hmmm.... RAW has this to say:
Terrain and ObstaclesFlying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.
If another can land a Slow spell, it will be staggered and that shuts down pounce since it is not allowed a full round action.That's not true, a staggered character can still charge up to their movement speed, and since pounce only asks for a charge, you still get all your attacks.
Slow can charge, but they cannot do a full round action. Pounce requires the latter. Thus it is stopped.
Pounce (Ex)
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).Format: pounce; Location: Special Attacks.
An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. Creatures affected by this spell are staggered and can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.
Multiple slow effects don’t stack. Slow counters and dispels haste.
Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
Full Attack
...
/cevah
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Yet another FAQ that changes the rules rather than clarifies them.
Sigh....
/cevah
That's not a rule change.
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Is the character making a charge? Yes. Then it gets a full attack.
A full round action lets you do a full attack, that does not necessarily mean a full attack requires a full round action. Of course you need to find a way to get a full attack without that full round action to be allowed it... but pounce makes no limitations on action type required for the charge to qualify.
Bull rush strike, tripping strike, etc do a similar thing. Normally a standard action is needed to do a combat manuever. These feats let you tack them on to a critical hit without requiring an additional action. In fact these could even be used as part of an AoO.
And the ultimate test: what if the GM decided the idea was so good he was going to use it vs every melee based PC? If you think its perfectly reasonable, then creatures should do it too.Sounds good to me. If the PCs get wrecked by this they deserve to. It relies on the enemy having at least 15' reach, the PCs not having 15' reach, the enemy having superior movement speed, and the PCs not having ranged attacks. So... yeah. I'm okay with the PCs losing in that scenario. They didn't plan properly.
Any large creature with a reach weapon has 20' reach. Many also have natural attacks; no minimum attack range.
This starts at really low level and takes minimal investment for a large creature. No where near what a PC would need to invest.
GWhen they move up to attack, your Ready interrupts, you get an attack and then step back out of their range. Since they've already moved and started their attack, they can't move again
Exactly the kind of thing I'd house-rule around if any of my players tried it.
"OK, he doesn't attack, since you're no longer there; instead he uses his remaining movement allowance to catch up to you, and then he attacks."Or:
"You make your attack, but he still gets his attack immediately afterwards, while you're still doing your five-foot step."
GWhen they move up to attack, your Ready interrupts, you get an attack and then step back out of their range. Since they've already moved and started their attack, they can't move againExactly the kind of thing I'd house-rule around if any of my players tried it.
"OK, he doesn't attack, since you're no longer there; instead he uses his remaining movement allowance to catch up to you, and then he attacks."
Or:
"You make your attack, but he still gets his attack immediately afterwards, while you're still doing your five-foot step."
The bolded part is 100% legal provided they didn't charge. If the defender steps straight back it's legal even on a charge.
The 2nd part is cheating, and I cannot stress enough how much the GM breaking the rules to negate player tactics is a bad idea. The GM can ALWAYS win if they want to (heck, the easiest way to negate this tactic as a GM is simply have TWO enemies attack).
EDIT: I'm very tired and may have misread something. I'll come back in thenmorning and check again =P
"OK, he doesn't attack, since you're no longer there; instead he uses his remaining movement allowance to catch up to you, and then he attacks."The bolded part is 100% legal provided they didn't charge.
Surely once you've started to attack, and triggered the readied action, you're committed to doing it, just as if someone shoots an arrow at you while you're casting a spell you don't get to change your mind about casting the spell. And because Pathfinder has a rule (admittedly one that I already house-ruled away) that you can't act in the middle of your move action, your move is already over so there's no way to catch up and attack.
If you Ready an action to shut a door between you and an attacker if he throws a dagger at you, when he throws that dagger and your Ready triggers, you shut the door. The dagger still gets thrown at you and hits the door. The attacker doesn't get to change the target.
I just don't like readied actions that involve walking to another square. Maybe that's the cleaner house-rule (or 'cheat' as we're apparently calling them now) - no movement during a readied action.
Would you be happy with an NPC who uses a readied action to move to another square when you fire an arrow at him? "Sorry, it doesn't matter what you rolled to hit; by the time the arrow gets there, he's thirty feet away from where you were aiming at. No, you don't get to change your aim."