Looking for help with a switch hitter build Ranger.


Advice


I apologize if this is the incorrect place for this thread.

Any cutting to the chase. I built my current toon for Kingmaker campaign and we are now level 9. Just turned 9 actually.

I built a switch hitter Ranger based on Treeants original thread from way back when not bothering to check for any updates.

Having forgot the guides layout I googled it and came across a ton of differing threads, so I am looking for some help in guiding my toon forward.

I am curious if a second companion is worth it thinking falcon/eagle for flanking and aerial survailence etc. If so boon companion is a must and what balance of levels?

Also what feats to get to lvl 20, do you recommend and ranger archery weapon style feats are recommended as I only shoot ranged targets or before we get into melee.

What about companion feats

Stats are as follows

LvL 9 Human (Kellid) Ranger Beast Master.
Str (19) 21
DeX (14) 16
Con 14
Int 10
Wis (16) 14 picked up spare headband +2 Wis
Cha 9

Spells:
Nothing great mostly utility based, didn't want to give up scrolls and wands for skirmishes tricks thinking I may have missed out though ona better option.

Feats:
Rànger style feat = Rapid Shot
Quick Draw
Power Attack
Mounted Combat
Boon Companion
Deadly Aim
Haven't picked 9th lvl feat yet

Traits:
Bastard
Reactionary

Weapon:
+2 Keen Falchion
+1 Shocking Composite Longbow +5 Str bonus

Current Companion Large cat
Imp Natural Armour
Imp Natural Attack Bite
Imp Natural Attack x2 Claws
Power Attack

Tricks:
Attack, attack any target, Combat riding, come, defend, down, guard, heel, stay, track.


What is a toon? Another word for character, or is there a difference?


Imho an archer should have: Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot. Don't take a second companion - it's a trap option.


Honestly, ever since Rangers got access to Point Blank Master in the Advanced Player's Guide there hasn't been a reason to build a switch hitter.

A switch hitter does ranged combat for approximately 1 round, until the enemy gets in melee range. Then the switch to melee combat (which admittedly doesn't take much to be competent at).

The switch hitter worked well at the time. It was able to do melee and range passably well, and didn't get itself into trouble by focusing on ranged attacks and getting backed into a corner by a melee monster.

But those times have long passed by. With Point Blank Master you can safely fire your bow right next to the enemy and not provoke. You can focus your character entirely on ranged attacks.

And general speaking, ranged attacks will enable you to do way more damage than any melee routine. Ranged characters are almost guaranteed a full attack every round, where melee characters are not.


Toon refers to my PC yes. Slang term from video gàmes I believe.

I cannot rebuild my character so he has everything that you see here unless I wìsh to die/walk away and stat a new character 2 levels back, which is an in game house rule. I can stream line towards 1 form of combat or another.

As I can ride my tiger thoughgetting into and staying in combat should be easy, no?

I have also given thought to switching to barbarian via multi-classing or prestige via Mammoth Rider.


Staying in melee combat isn't the problem, the problem is every time you move, even if it's just your mount that moves you, you don't get a full attack. You only get to make a single attack.

There is a late stage feat that can fix this, with Mounted Skirmisher. But it's not available until level 14.

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I think there is still a place for the switch hitter ranger. The advantage of the build is that you don't need a huge dex (since ranger combat style ignores prerequisites) while giving flexibility.

A great sword wielding ranger can dish out quite a bit of damage without needing a lot of feats.

Kingmaker having a lot of outdoor action is an especially good AP for this concept.

Personally, I would be pretty happy with just rapid shot and many shot for my ranger style feats. There are some other nice ones, but those would be my focus. I probably wouldn't bother with deadly aim.

You don't say what you don't like (if anything) about your character as it is. If there is something you have identified as a problem, you are more likely to get useful advice.


Does switch hitter mean he has 2 weapons?


Yqatuba wrote:
Does switch hitter mean he has 2 weapons?

No Maybe, depends on what you mean by two weapons. When you say two weapons it makes me think "two weapon fighting". Switch hitting means to switch between melee and ranged attacks. Usually a longbow and something like a greatsword or nodachi.


There's also the Empty Quiver Style chain.


My problem is that I feel that I may be doing some stuff wrong and that the original guide may be out of date. That being said our group is confined to what is found in the Core Players, Advanced Players. Ultimate Combat and Ultimate magic the world guide and kingmaker players companion.

My magic is there spells I should be taking? And casting no matter what? Most spells seem pretty weak at level for combat short of buffs e.g. but are spells like lead blades worth losing an attack to get?

Is there a gain to a second companion even only a level 1 with boon feat making it level 5 with my main tiger becoming level 19 effectively when I hit 20. Not for combat but tracking etc where the beast master sees through the eyes of the eagle etc.?

Ranger 20 or Mammoth Rider prestige class dm allowed it if I want to take it. It seems very heavy companion buff but little for the PC.

Also someone at our local store told me to make my companion into a full PC thru a spell somehow?


Claxon wrote:

Staying in melee combat isn't the problem, the problem is every time you move, even if it's just your mount that moves you, you don't get a full attack. You only get to make a single attack.

There is a late stage feat that can fix this, with Mounted Skirmisher. But it's not available until level 14.

Curious though I dont get full attacks on the move my Great Cat does through pounce if I can charge and then I get mine. Also been thinking of taking vital strike to help offset this.

Would you recommend mounted feat progression? With remaining feats or even Mammoth rider?


With the exception of instant enemy, I don't find many ranger spells to be worth casting in combat. There are several buffs that are useful if you can cast them before combat however.

I also like having a cure or two handy for an emergency.

Boon companion will stop working for you at level 12, when you get full ranger levels as druid levels (unless you multi-class out of ranger of course) and you can't do something like 9 druid levels, 5 for one animal + 4 (boon companion) and 4 for another. The boon companion bonus comes first, capped by your level and then divided between your companions. As you rise in levels, even a full level animal companion tends to fade in power (since a 20th level druid has a 15 Hit Dice AC) so even a single HD hurts. If you were just an archer, relying on your AC for maneuverability but not direct combat I would say it wouldn't hurt to put a HD or two into a scout, but since you want your cat to be in melee with you, I wouldn't recommend it.

I don't think Mammoth Rider is a great choice. For one thing, an animal companion being huge can often be a negative.


Now I am confused I found an FAQ thread regarding Boon Companion and they stated that due to the write in the feat that it applies to the companion boosting its level effectively by 4 but not to exceed the level of the of Player character (total level) which would mean that I could divide my total available companion levels between however many companions I then apply boon companion feats purchased by the PC to a single companion for each feat taken the companion with noon companion applied now counts as being effectively 4 levels higher as long as it doesnt exceed the level of the PC. So a lvl 20 druid with a level 20 companion cant make use of boon companion. But if the level 20 druid had 2 companions they could be lvl 14 each.

Has this been overruled again?

Also you mentioned level 12 ranger getting full level companion? I will have to reread the ranger class again for higher levels.

Also what is Empty Quiver Style Chain?


Found he 12th level part in beast master. Thanks for making me look. Still unsure on Boon companion understanding.


My understanding is that a ranger beast master with 2 companions could have a lvl 16 companion and a level 4 companion procure boom companion feat twice applying it once to each companion and the effective companion levels would be 20 and 8 respectively and as neither companion exceeds the PCs level of 20 then everything is kosher. Am I reading this wrong and misunderstanding the FAQ I read last year regarding this?


I played a great sword and bow switch hitter in RoftRL and it was a blast! Archery really is the back-up style or a way to draw enemies to you so you can squash them in melee. I would suggest Furious Focus and Vital Strike chain for your feat selection, especially if you ride your AC around the battlefield. Greatsword would be best IMO.

Instant Ennemy and Gravity Bow/Lead Blade are nice buffs when you got time to cast before a fight. I discovered Bloodhound too, combined with pheromone arrows it gives a nice boost to your DPR. Works for the big cat too!

If you go with Vital Strike, some levels of barbarian could be nice along with Furious Finish.


I could see a strength ranger plinking with a bow and then going two hander maybe power attack / cornugon smash / hurtful version. I feel like dual wielding just takes too many feats to work as a ‘switch hitter build’. Vital strike seems like a strange choice: to me the whole point of a ‘switch hitter’ is that you always get to full attack, and the whole point of vital strike is that it gives a boost in the rounds where you can’t full attack.


Lt_Walke wrote:


Also what is Empty Quiver Style Chain?

Empty Quiver Style is a combat style (sequence of feats meant to be taken one after another) that uses a firearm, bow, or crossbow as a melee weapon.

The second feat in the sequence is Empty Quiver Flexibility, which gives all the benefits you have from feats and class features with ranged attacks to your melee attacks with the weapon as well.
The third, Empty Quiver Flurry will only matter for firearms or crossbows, as it speeds up reloading.

The Empty Quiver series is useful because it lets you focus on just one weapon's enhancement bonuses and enchantments, and you don't need to worry about switching between weapons when in melee.


Since you're riding your companion, I recommend Indomitable Mount.

In fact, since you have a one-level-remaining freebie from Boon Companion, dip a single level of Fighter[Dragoon], and pick up both Mounted Combat (so you can retrain the first instance of the feat) and Skill Focus:Ride (which will fuel both Mounted Combat and Boon Companion) -- and your companion continues advancing full level while you pick up three feats. Next level (at 10th), you'll be +6 to Ride checks.


Claxon wrote:

Honestly, ever since Rangers got access to Point Blank Master in the Advanced Player's Guide there hasn't been a reason to build a switch hitter.

I don't have the experience of the people who regularly post so maybe my opinion doesn't carry as much weight

I have been trying a switch hitter ranger and while maybe not as optimal as a dedicated archer it does seem viable. I get 1 to 3 rounds of full attack with archery then quick draw and smack it upside its head. I feel that a dedicated archer is basically a one trick pony while a switch hitter is more flexible

Based on personal experience there will be fights were being a dedicated archer is a lot better but not all fights. It all depends what kind of fights the DM is running

Does the OP feel he would better off as a dedicated archer or switch hitter?


I'd say that, since you don't have Precise Shot, you're basically forced to switch to a melee weapon at some point. As a Kingmaker DM, ranged combat can be SUPER useful to focus on.


Lt_Walke wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Staying in melee combat isn't the problem, the problem is every time you move, even if it's just your mount that moves you, you don't get a full attack. You only get to make a single attack.

There is a late stage feat that can fix this, with Mounted Skirmisher. But it's not available until level 14.

Curious though I dont get full attacks on the move my Great Cat does through pounce if I can charge and then I get mine. Also been thinking of taking vital strike to help offset this.

Would you recommend mounted feat progression? With remaining feats or even Mammoth rider?

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your sentence, so I will restate your question:

"If my cat has pounce and I'm riding him, he gets to full attack when he charges, so don't I get a full attack?"

The answer is no. Your cat has pounce, which enables him to make full attack. You do not have pounce, so you only get to make a single attack. As to the benefit of your cat making a full attack...well animal companions get weaker over time relative to enemies. Unless you spend a significant portion of your WBL to outfit them with magic items they will not keep up with enemy AC and their damage output wont keep up with enemy HP.

Vital strike would kind of offset the damage you lose, but honestly it's usefulneess depends on how quickly you kill things.

If you're charging a new enemy every round, vital strike can be very useful. If you're charge and then melee an enemy in place for two rounds before charging the next it's probably not that useful.

With the level your character is at I don't really have much advice. You've split your character build between mounted combat, melee combat, and ranged combat. Without retraining your feats I'm not sure anything can really be pulled together cohesively.


huggin wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Honestly, ever since Rangers got access to Point Blank Master in the Advanced Player's Guide there hasn't been a reason to build a switch hitter.

I don't have the experience of the people who regularly post so maybe my opinion doesn't carry as much weight

I have been trying a switch hitter ranger and while maybe not as optimal as a dedicated archer it does seem viable. I get 1 to 3 rounds of full attack with archery then quick draw and smack it upside its head. I feel that a dedicated archer is basically a one trick pony while a switch hitter is more flexible

Based on personal experience there will be fights were being a dedicated archer is a lot better but not all fights. It all depends what kind of fights the DM is running

Does the OP feel he would better off as a dedicated archer or switch hitter?

If you're just looking at damage dealing, an archer pretty much always exceeds melee. Mostly because of full attacks. The biggest reason why people built switch hitters was survivability. It was very dangerous to try to shoot someone while engaged in melee. But once Point Blank Master allowed us not to provoke, it really stopped being an issue.

The major things you lose with archery over melee is no threatening (though you can pick up armor spikes or a gauntlet) and no being able to do the normal sort of melee lock down stuff or maneuvers.


If his cat pounces (meaning, by definition, that it moved) while being ridden, the only way he-the-rider also gets a full-attack is via the Mounted Skirmisher feat, which is only available at 14th, or via a Sohei monk bonus feat.


Sorry about that I meant with pounce my cat gets a full attack on the charge plus my (one) attack.

Other than the style feats deadly aim is the only archery feat I took not from combat style as per the original switch hitter guide. Nor do I plan to spend any other feats beyond combat style ones on archery.

So far I only took mounted combat as we spent so much time on horseback that fighting without it in Kjngmaker seemed a bad idea.

The big thing is I guess spending fears between mounted or straight melee feats.

I will look more I to the mounted feats tonight.


I think the feats that you've chosen so far are perfectly fine. The weapons, I would prefer to see done a little differently:

* An Adaptive/Seeking longbow
* A lance (for mounted charges)
* A bardiche or fauchard (for other melee reach-weapon fighting)
* A greatsword or butchering axe
* A one-handed weapon of some type (necessary for you to continue fighting while in a grapple).

All elemental damage weapon enhancements are actually inferior to straight bonuses, and some argue that Keen isn't either.

~ ~ ~

Animal companion feats.... Prior to Strong Jaw and that sort of stuff, I don't know if the Improved Natural Attack feats are pulling their weight, especially the claws which only gaining 1pt. I would like to see Combat Reflexes, and maybe something that dovetails with exploiting grab/grapple (something your big cat is very good at, especially most humanoid spellcasters whom you would love to see forced to grant AoOs to you and your cat, which is especially sweet if you have the Fortuitous enhancement on a polearm).


I prefer the great sword and honestly the great axe or earthbreaker as my weapon of choice normally. This time I took the falchion little less dmg than great sword but with keen I got a 15 to 20 threat range which I must say has worked well for me. Need to look into a small single handed weapon though not only for grapple but also for when swallowed.

So do you prefer damage over critical slim jim or just think it is better as a feat instead of keen? Or don't bother with expanding threat rànge at all?

Will look into other option when I get home at work currently.


Curious is there any magic gear I could give my cat to alter its size on command ? Or a feat? Thinking of how to ensure utility if I go mammoth rider.

Liberty's Edge

I don't believe an animal companion can use a magic item that requires a trigger (a familiar can).


Cool. I remember reading to increase my companions int ro or 4 does anyone know why?


Extra skill point? 3 means it can take any feat it qualifies for, not just the animal feats. 4 was probably because if you're a human with Eye for Talent, you can raise INT to 4 at level 1. Otherwise you have to wait until level 4 to put the bonus point into INT and raise it from 2 to 3.

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