Hit is VERY important. Its a roll you make frequently , its pretty irreplaceable, and hitting or not is very important to your group. Combat is a group activity, everyone being better at it contributes more linearly.
I have exactly the same point of view. Combat is a group activity, so your contribution is far lower than a skill check where you can be the only one able to make it. Hitting is, as such, secondary. And that's valid only if your character shoots. Most of my characters don't even bother bringing a weapon. We have a very different point of view on the importance of combat and the importance of hitting during combat. Repeating it over and over won't convince me.
Why not make a hacker operative? The bonus you think is fine on a mechanic (+9: 4 starting int 1 rank 3 trained +1 bypass) can be had by an int 14 operative with the hacking specilization ( 2 starting int 1 rank 3 trained 3 skill focus) or passed by starting with a 16.
True, even if it's valid for nearly no time (at level 2, the Mechanic is at 20 Intelligence, so, you need a 16 to be on par, and later on, you need a starting 18 to be on par, appart from the few levels where Operative Edge is higher than Bypass). So, as I said, it's something you do only if you are an expert player and can pay your 18 in Intelligence on an Operative without losing too much on your main abilities.
I'll take it at a +5 then. High enough that I'm not worried about the operative eating my ysoki's cheese sandwhich.
No, +5 is when the stars are aligned. It's the best you can get, but it's not common at all. On average, it's a +2 (unless you have infinite RPs and then it's +2.5). So, it's not bad, but it's very far from a +8.
If your party is planned, then you don't need to worry about what you're packing nearly as much. The operative just puts their skill points elsewhere once they hit +9 for the assist.
If your party is planned, there is no such discussion, as anything is possible.
+32
I haven't found the +2 hacking tools, but, I agree, you get to +30, you found a little more bonuses than me.
Still, the DC 35 can be failed, and we are speaking of an overly optimized character (I don't think we can find much more bonuses to Computers). So, it doesn't completely invalidate what I said before, there is no auto succeed on checks, and any bonus is interesting to take.
Most of my characters don't even bother bringing a weapon.
Okay, So why is an 18 starting int operative such an impossibility if you're going to value skills over combat to that extent? You start with a +3 at level 1 instead of having to wait for it and it scales up faster than bypass.
The dex based skills for an operative (acrobatics) really only matter when you're running around in combat.
I'd assume a damaya lashunta if you're going to go all in for a skill like that so you can have a starting 18 int (8 build points) and then a 14 dex (2 Build point): only 1 to hit behind a fair swath of other operatives.
No, +5 is when the stars are aligned. It's the best you can get, but it's not common at all. On average, it's a +2 (unless you have infinite RPs and then it's +2.5). So, it's not bad, but it's very far from a +8.
As long as you can keep your skill where even the hard DCs are a 10 and lower either the stars are aligned or you'll make the roll on a 2 regardless.
If your party is planned, there is no such discussion, as anything is possible.
I just don't know under what circumstances you're making characters for that you need to have the highest bonus possible or be relegated to an aid another all the time. Even then you seem to have this weird artifical restriction that you're not allowed to have offstat characters or that they won't work.
Okay, So why is an 18 starting int operative such an impossibility if you're going to value skills over combat to that extent?
I don't say it's an impossibility, I just say it's an expert build, not a beginner one (you max Dexterity on an Operative in general, as it's a bit more straightforward).
Also, I say it's an overpowered build, because, as you point it out, you have an incredible number of skills to awesome levels.As long as you can keep your skill where even the hard DCs are a 10 and lower either the stars are aligned or you'll make the roll on a 2 regardless.
Not at all what I experienced. The Dead Suns AP, first part, asks for a DC 30 check. So, thanks to my +16 at level 2, I made it. And was happy to make it :)
I just don't know under what circumstances you're making characters for that you need to have the highest bonus possible or be relegated to an aid another all the time. Even then you seem to have this weird artifical restriction that you're not allowed to have offstat characters or that they won't work.
I play Dead Suns AP with a 14 starting Wisdom Operative (quite a classical build when you think about it). At level 3, the only way for me to be better in Survival was to have a 20 in Wisdom (I don't speak of racial/theme bonuses which are quite limited in number). There was quite a few Survival checks, I made them, he made none. With a 14 in Wisdom, he would have made them, I would have made none. This case was cool, because you expect the Mystic to make the Survival checks.
I also play with a Solarian. My Overlord Mystic makes all the Charisma checks, because I have once again strong optimizations (Connection bonus + racial bonus + 14 starting Charisma).I've also played with an 18 Dexterity 14 Wisdom Mystic, once. I was there with my Mystic, there was an Operative in the party. He didn't make a single important check, only the classicals "Everyone roll Perception".
I have made a few adventures like that, with my character overshadowing another one. The Duskmire Accord 9 one was clearly frustrating for my partner who just got bored to death because he was completely and utterly useless during the whole module besides having the perfect character to shine. But he was overshadowed, sorry for him.
So, my experience is, in SFS, you are either overoptimized or you have to expect to sit in the back periodically during out of combat phases because someone just overshadows you on your main skills.
During combat, you can always act. So, you don't need to be much optimized, in my opinion. And my builds are far from being bad in combat.
Yeah, and here's the thing: I don't believe there's a big market for playing someone who has a bunch of skills but basically sucks at all of them.The Intelligence-based Operative has all the skills at higher levels than all his party members, save from Charisma-based skills if there is an Envoy. There is a market for that, it's called solo hero.
If skill checks were all there was to the game. Which, of course, is not the case.
At a table that specifically uses almost no other parts of Starfinder, of course, such a character would be legitimately OP. If that's your table, then certainly feel free to hate Int-based Operatives with the intensity of a thousand blazing suns. But it's going to be of limited relevance to most other tables, since Starfinder is pretty clearly designed (and I would speculate with some degree of confidence, more usually played) with a more balanced approach in mind.
and the expert rig counts as a specialty hacking kit (so +2 circumstance).I'm trying to find this rule, but all I see is that if you don't have a hacking kit, you take penalties. The custom rig class feature just ensures that a mechanic doesn't randomly get those penalties because he forgot to pick up a 20 credit item.
He's probably thinking of this line from the 7th level Expert Rig class ability:
In addition, your custom rig can now be used as any engineering
or hacking specialty kit of item level 6th or lower, and it has
the features of a computer with a tier equal to half your level
with the artificial personality, hardened, or security I upgrade
module.
Although you're right, I don't see any hacking kits that give +2. Probably thinking of the old Pathfinder masterwork tools.
On the other hand, there is:
Weaponsmithing/Armorsmithing tookit (+2 circumstance bonus to Engineering for making weapons or armor)
Trapsmith's tools (+4 to Engineering/Mysticism to arm or disarm traps)
Thieves’ tools (+4 bonus to Computers checks to hack a computer system
that controls a door and a +4 bonus to Engineering checks
to disable a mechanical or technological lock)
Thieves' tools, depending on how a build or ship is wired, are potentially very powerful for hacking into computers in a more general sense. Also its an untyped bonus so stacks with circumstance. So I hack in to open the door, but while I'm there, I also control the lights, AC, and maybe access their mainframe if they've got poor IT security and wired it all together to save on credits. I mean, does your ship have more than computer? Or does it have many small computers controlling each individual door?
It does mean with any of the cybernetic implant versions of the custom rig you've always got a set of really good lockpicks, even in prison. Or can hack the flying police car from the backseat. You might actually need caster level security measures when trying to keep such a mechanic prisoner.
Actually, at 7th, you potentially get free rolls on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks with a bonus approximately equal to your level from the scaling computer and AI personality. Since its got an audio/visual recorder, it can also make perception checks. You could for instance run a trap spotting script in the background.
Its not great, but it is Aid another fodder. Certainly a +10 Diplomacy check at 10th is another +2 in the aid another department and is certainly worth more than my expected -1 Diplomacy roll from my current Mechanic. Presumably, a low charisma Mechanic lets his AI personality talk for him.
Interestingly, +10 is likely what a typical Operative might have in Diplomacy if they put ranks into it but didn't have operative's edge apply.
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Look at it the other way.
I want to play the computers guy. What class should I play?
If you line up the classes, the Technomancer actually comes across more as the computer guy than the mechanic.
I'm kinda shocked the mechanic doesn't ride into battle using a car or at least a motorcycle - ideally, a mecha.
A drone doesn't quite fit the flavor of a sci-fi mechanic, at least to me.
Look at it the other way.
I want to play the computers guy. What class should I play?
If you line up the classes, the Technomancer actually comes across more as the computer guy than the mechanic.
I'm kinda shocked the mechanic doesn't ride into battle using a car or at least a motorcycle - ideally, a mecha.
A drone doesn't quite fit the flavor of a sci-fi mechanic, at least to me.
I'm considering a power armored exocortex mechanic (possible at 7th with just 1 feat). Flight Frame power armor is basically a mecha. Its huge, it flies, and can mount multiple heavy weapons and punch things. Throw in a computer interface armor upgrade, and you can get free actions to fire off weapons which are mounted to it. Like heavy weapon explosives. Macross missile massacre is totally doable. :)
And there is absolutely nothing preventing a mechanic from buying a vehicle. And driving it, or alternatively, having their drone pilot it at high level (an 11th level Mechanic can have a drone with up to +17 in the piloting skill, which they can use by themselves as a standard action) while they shoot things or jump off or already there and want it to come by and pick them up.
Now consider that 11th level Mechanic, with their drone with the piloting skill left on the bridge of the ship say, 5 miles away. That's what I would call starship class "fire support".
Mechanics basically get a bunch of random rules interacting with technology and skills that let them do things that a raw skill bonus doesn't let you do (or at least, not without a bunch of credits thrown at the problem or leaving gaping holes in your computer system for NPC hackers to exploit). Like be in two places at once.
If you line up the classes, the Technomancer actually comes across more as the computer guy than the mechanic.
because they're going to get more out of an uber int or what do they have in their pockets to help?
I'm kinda shocked the mechanic doesn't ride into battle using a car or at least a motorcycle - ideally, a mecha.
Biker Ysoki from Akiton riding their drone that looks like a motercycle is a legit mechanic build.
But yes, the class really doesn't have a whole lot of things i think of when i hear mechanic besides the drone.
A drone doesn't quite fit the flavor of a sci-fi mechanic, at least to me.
its a battle bot. They're in almost every sci fi setting.
Not at all what I experienced. The Dead Suns AP, first part, asks for a DC 30 check. So, thanks to my +16 at level 2, I made it. And was happy to make it :)
Or you could have rolled a 13 and it was all for nothing
Or you could have a +10 and nat 20 it.Individual datapoints aren't really helpful in character design. The fact is the skills have a strong tendancy to be around needing a 10 with reasonable optimization rather than a random spread.
I play Dead Suns AP with a 14 starting Wisdom Operative (quite a classical build when you think about it). At level 3, the only way for me to be better in Survival was to have a 20 in Wisdom (I don't speak of racial/theme bonuses which are quite limited in number).
Okay that is really really weird.
You really should be coordinating that sort of thing rather than competing. If your operative is the survival one you should just find another skill to make yourself useful in rather than improving your parties effectiveness at that one thing by 5% per point you can eke out over them.
If everyone needs to go all in to beat the operative even in the 2 skills their class/specialization is supposed to be giving them, that is definitely a sign there's definitely an issue with the operative or with the other classes skill allocations.
I also play with a Solarian. My Overlord Mystic makes all the Charisma checks
Even with the soulfire infusion, going all in on charisma isn't the usual solarion build so I wouldn't expect them to be the uberface.
So, my experience is, in SFS, you are either overoptimized or you have to expect to sit in the back periodically during out of combat phases because someone just overshadows you on your main skills.
You seem to be a little binary about it. Sure The more you're into a skill the less it happens to you, but you have to prepare for that on occasion anyway (because you could meet your evil(er) twin who's a level higher than you) and sometimes the party doesn't have a secondary skill ( On multiple. occasions, my 10 charisma Mystic has been the face at a dinner party) It's not like you're never going to get to roll a skill thats not absolutely cranked.
And sometimes there are skills where everyone rolls (anyone know if this roadkill animal here is wildlife, a pet, or the guy we were supposed to meet?)
And there is absolutely nothing preventing a mechanic from buying a vehicle. And driving it...
Sure, but nothing encouraging them either.
Anyway, I'm fine with the mechanic not being the computers guy. At least he's the best/only pet class at the moment, and can also get good results in computer checks.
Although neither has anything with to do with the image of a sci-fi mechanic.
Well, the operative can't outclass him when it comes to pets.
At least until Alien Archive 3 comes out.
Sure, but nothing encouraging them either.
Anyway, I'm fine with the mechanic not being the computers guy. At least he's the best/only pet class at the moment, and can also get good results in computer checks.
Although neither has anything with to do with the image of a sci-fi mechanic.
I'm curious what abilities do you associate with a sci-fi mechanic? Do you have an example from literature or film your thinking of? Perhaps we should suggest them to the developers for future supplements.
I'll note there are a couple mechanic tricks that interact with vehicles in the armory:
1) Combat maintenance lets you add hardness to your vehicle (or other item) as a move action. If it comes with autopilot, you can still shoot with your standard action, or alternatively pilot it with your standard.
2) Recalibrate engine lets you give an enhancement speed bonus to a vehicle. That plus the Sky Jockey feat I believe are the only way to increase vehicle speeds.
In the core rulebook there's some tangentially related abilities:
3) Quick Repair + vehicle you crafted yourself can be repaired fully in 15 minutes, irregardless of the amount of damage, which is arguably better than a Technomancer's Make Whole's 10 minutes and 5d6 roll.
4) Techmaster lets you build vehicles in a few minutes at level 20.
I expect as more books come out, more mechanic abilities will be related to starships, vehicles, technological equipment and computers. By their nature, operatives and envoy abilities have to span a much broader skill set, where as mechanics really do focus on computers, technological items, and starships.
I'll also note of the core mechanic's class abilities which all mechanics get, bypass, custom rig, remote hack, expert rig, advanced rig, and superior rig all are related to computers in some way. So saying that a mechanic isn't a computer person feels like you're selling a bunch of abilities short.
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To begin with, I am going to explain why I believe that the expert rig class feature of the Mechanic provides a +2 circumstance bonus to all engineering checks and hacking checks. I am not interested in engaging in a discussion about this, therefore I will not humor a discussion with anyone. If you decide to discuss or debate with my point, so be it, but I will not respond.
and the expert rig counts as a specialty hacking kit (so +2 circumstance).I'm trying to find this rule, but all I see is that if you don't have a hacking kit, you take penalties. The custom rig class feature just ensures that a mechanic doesn't randomly get those penalties because he forgot to pick up a 20 credit item.He's probably thinking of this line from the 7th level Expert Rig class ability:
In addition, your custom rig can now be used as any engineering
or hacking specialty kit of item level 6th or lower, and it has
the features of a computer with a tier equal to half your level
with the artificial personality, hardened, or security I upgrade
module.Although you're right, I don't see any hacking kits that give +2. Probably thinking of the old Pathfinder masterwork tools.
On the other hand, there is:
Weaponsmithing/Armorsmithing tookit (+2 circumstance bonus to Engineering for making weapons or armor)
Trapsmith's tools (+4 to Engineering/Mysticism to arm or disarm traps)
Thieves’ tools (+4 bonus to Computers checks to hack a computer system
that controls a door and a +4 bonus to Engineering checks
to disable a mechanical or technological lock)Thieves' tools, depending on how a build or ship is wired, are potentially very powerful for hacking into computers in a more general sense. Also its an untyped bonus so stacks with circumstance.
It does mean with any of the cybernetic implant versions of the custom rig you've always got a set of really good lockpicks, even in prison. Or can hack the flying police car from the backseat. You might actually need caster level...
It explicitly states that all of the bonuses for the tool kits are circumstance bonuses in the paragraph describing general tool kits (pg. 221).
Now, to the point at hand... (All references will be from the CRB. I will add "" and/or (pg. xx) to denote these references.)
In the description of the Custom Rig class feature from the Mechanic it states, "While using this rig, you always count as having the appropriate tool or basic kit for any Computers or Engineering skill check you attempt." (pg. 69) This says that you effectively have the engineering kit and hacking kit (pg. 221) from the tool kit section in the equipment chapter.
Expert Rig, the level 7 Mechanic class ability states, "In addition, your custom rig can now be used as any engineering or hacking specialty kit of item level 6th or lower..." (pg. 70). Now this ability specifically calls out specialty kit which is a separate item in the Equipment section than the tool kit. It states, "Tool Kit, Engineering Specialty" then, "These kits provide a +2 circumstance bonus to a specific use of the engineering skill. Using an armor crafter kit gives you a +2 bonus to repair, resize, or upgrade armor. A weaponsmithing kit gives you a +2 bonus to repair weapons." (pg. 221). Now, the expert rig feature says "any engineering or hacking specialty kit", therefore I deduce that the expert rig essentially provides a +2 circumstance bonus to every engineering check you would make (except maybe identification checks). It also applies to hacking checks as a hacking specialty tool kit would apply to hacking checks.
That is where I get the +2. You may do with this whatever you like.
Or you could have rolled a 13 and it was all for nothing
Or you could have a +10 and nat 20 it.
You can't have a +10 at level 2 without optimisation. You have +7 with a 14 as starting stat.
Also, if you always roll 1s and 20s, you don't need anything.What I mean is: I don't remember to hit checks, I remember skill checks, that's why I think about them when building my character.
Also, as you say, skill checks DCs are properly chosen so you nearly never make them on a 1. Having a +2 to Mysticism is important (especially considering that I'm, in general, the only one having the skill).
You really should be coordinating that sort of thing rather than competing. If your operative is the survival one you should just find another skill to make yourself useful in rather than improving your parties effectiveness at that one thing by 5% per point you can eke out over them.
If everyone needs to go all in to beat the operative even in the 2 skills their class/specialization is supposed to be giving them, that is definitely a sign there's definitely an issue with the operative or with the other classes skill allocations.
- You can't coordinate yourself with other players in SFS. All I say here is not valid in a normal party where you can discuss (even if, considering the type of bonuses the Operative has, it may happen during the course of a classical adventure).
- I've taken Survival because it was the check I had to do. But I'm speaking of all the Wisdom based skills. So, if the Operative is the Wisdom-based skills one, then I can just grab a book, my character is useless outside combat. I know in a game you can't have a proper balance between players' contribution, but if my character is next to useless, I don't have fun at all. And aiding another on my main skills is not something I like to do.- I don't think it's an issue with the Operative. For me, it's by design. Having a 14 as starting Wisdom for a Mystic really looks unnatural the way the class is built. It's like having a 14 Dexterity range Soldier and whining because other characters are better in combat. If you don't focus on what your supposed to do, then expect to be outclassed.
You seem to be a little binary about it. Sure The more you're into a skill the less it happens to you, but you have to prepare for that on occasion anyway (because you could meet your evil(er) twin who's a level higher than you) and sometimes the party doesn't have a secondary skill ( On multiple. occasions, my 10 charisma Mystic has been the face at a dinner party) It's not like you're never going to get to roll a skill thats not absolutely cranked.
If I play with my evil twin, one of us will be outclassed on his main skills, and it's sad, whether it's me or him (it's bad party composition). I'm more annoyed when I'm outclassed on what I consider my main skills by someone who's not specialized in them, like an Operative with a few more levels.
So, for me, if you play a Mystic with a 14 in Wisdom, you have Wisdom as secondary stat, so, chances are high you won't be the Wisdom guy at the table. Which is perfectly ok if you know it. But you have to be aware of it. If you don't have an 18 as a starting stat, then it's not your focus. My Mystic may end up with better Charisma-based skills than your Envoy if there is a small difference in level (I have +13/+15 at level 5, I'm pretty sure you didn't had that at level 3 (for example, if we consider a small difference in level)). So, your character may not be the face if we play together. Sad but true.Currently, I've never been outclassed on my main skills with this logic, and I've outclassed a few other characters. So, looks to me that it works fine.
And yes, of course, sometimes you are the party face with a 10 in Charisma. But as you don't have a focus on that, you rarely consider it important, just funny.
You can't have a +10 at level 2 without optimisation. You have +7 with a 14 as starting stat.
Again. you're being very binary.
Your options are not Optimized to all heck and completely useless. If you can have a +16, somehow, you can dial it back a bit and have a +10.
I don't remember to hit checks, I remember skill checks
Until your party misses enough of them on the wrong monster.
- You can't coordinate yourself with other players in SFS. All I say here is not valid in a normal party where you can discuss (even if, considering the type of bonuses the Operative has, it may happen during the course of a classical adventure).
By what you're saying here none of my SFS characters should EVER be making skill checks because they're not optimized to the nines for skills. But they almost always do. Either
the skill check is for the party rather than an individual/ there's a dinner party mechanic where the whole party needs to contribute
no one has first tier optimization for the skill in question and its a skill I have second tier optimization in
No one has third tier optimization for the skill in question and it's a skill I've put a few ranks in
The Vesk party thinks diplomacy is Vesk for "bad fighter" and he's thrown to the front.
The skill is a REALLY niche profession or perform ( Weird uses for profession cook or gym teacher...)
And on the other hand sometimes during the intro I hear about how someone is all into hacking and the my mystic with skill focus doesn't run at the computer despite having the higher modifier. I aid another, can't miss the 10. Let someone else fulfill the narrative role they have for their character.
Again, odds are important, not binary. The better you make your optimization the more likely (not certain but likely) that you'll be the one making the roll. You can go mostly in on a skill and still usually be the one rolling on it. You can hit that level with very little reduction in combat effectiveness.
- I don't think it's an issue with the Operative. For me, it's by design. Having a 14 as starting Wisdom for a Mystic really looks unnatural the way the class is built. It's like having a 14 Dexterity range Soldier and whining because other characters are better in combat. If you don't focus on what your supposed to do, then expect to be outclassed.
Beating a 14 with a 14, no. Beating a 14 with a 14 if its one of your connection skills, something you have a fundamental connection to on a deeper level of the universe... yeah that's a little much.
I don't think it's an issue with the Operative. For me, it's by design. Having a 14 as starting Wisdom for a Mystic really looks unnatural the way...
It may be counter to intent but it really works for SFS. If you're not brain blasting all you need are the condition removers , a haste spell, and the occasional magic missile to cast kill steal. None of those care what your wisdom score is.
The 14 wisdom Mystic at level 8
I also just have a thing for off model builds. I hate showing up to the game wearing the same thing as everyone else.
By what you're saying here none of my SFS characters should EVER be making skill checks because they're not optimized to the nines for skills.
I don't want to make skill checks, I want to play the role my character is supposed to play. My Envoy is the face, period. And not out of pity. Because it's what I want to play. Hence the level of optimization.
It may be counter to intent but it really works for SFS. If you're not brain blasting all you need are the condition removers , a haste spell, and the occasional magic missile to cast kill steal. None of those care what your wisdom score is.
Well, if it works for you :)
I clearly don't play my Mystic the way you play yours.My Mystic's role is to disable the big blasters through Command (free AoOs) or Hold Person (Humanoids are far more frequent in Starfinder than in Pathfinder, Hold Person is now quite a good spell).
I also just have a thing for off model builds. I hate showing up to the game wearing the same thing as everyone else.
And I clearly understand you. We all play what we love to play.
My first 3.0 character was a Fighter, not optimized enough, so, he was always worse than the equivalent level frontliners. I really hated playing it. Levels after levels, thinking the next one with the new feat would be the one where I would shine. And level after level, feeling that I was just there to suck damage, well, actually, just to suck.I don't always optimize all my characters like crazy, it really depends on what I plan on doing. Sometimes, class abilities are enough. But in Starfinder, if you just want a +2/+3 over your comrades, you really need some level of optimization. In my opinion, the system is made for that. And, I still think that a party with everyone maxed in their class main attribute is far more efficient than a party with everyone having the ability to wield a blaster. I've never found that weapons were doing damage, outside the hands of characters supposed to wield them.
It explicitly states that all of the bonuses for the tool kits are circumstance bonuses in the paragraph describing general tool kits (pg. 221).
Ah, good catch. I'm used to the bonuses being listed explicitly next to the bonus, but you're absolutely right. On the bright side, circumstance bonuses generally stack unless from essentially the same source, so its not too different.
I don't want to make skill checks, I want to play the role my character is supposed to play. My Envoy is the face, period. And not out of pity. Because it's what I want to play. Hence the level of optimization.
Right, but I don't think you NEED the level of optimization you're going for in order to be the face 90% of the time.. on an envoy. An envoys D6 is worth 3.5 out of the gate and for their main skill is probably going to have a reroll on tap. The only thing that's going to compete with that is... another envoy. I think that means that the envoy is doing its mechanical job as a class by letting the player fulfill the narrative role.
The mechanic isn't doing that. Its bypass ability scaling up their specialty slower than an operative doing everything means that you have to really work at the mechanic to make it work. That's a problem with class design. That you have to go so all in on skills that you're useless in combat just to be a little bit better than a battle capable operative not even trying indicates a problem.
Well, if it works for you :)
I clearly don't play my Mystic the way you play yours.
My Mystic's role is to disable the big blasters through Command (free AoOs) or Hold Person (Humanoids are far more frequent in Starfinder than in Pathfinder, Hold Person is now quite a good spell).
You're playing a brain blaster. You absolutely need that starting 18 wisdom, and the DC boosting feats, and more luck with the DMs rolling than I have....
I could argue for a 16 though. If you start with a 16 you're the same for levels 5 to 10 and 15 to 20.
In my opinion, the system is made for that. And, I still think that a party with everyone maxed in their class main attribute is far more efficient than a party with everyone having the ability to wield a blaster. I've never found that weapons were doing damage, outside the hands of...
Ahhh. There's a point of data rather than preference.(assuming it's not a maxed strength vesk soldier with the ring of fangs or bust)
An envoy with an unwieldy weapon (long arm or heavy weapon if ranged) can absolutely bring the pain. (Much easier with a soldier dip and the armory's advent of the starfinder backpack and the weapon harness)
If you're going improved GET EM there's absolutely no reason not to make your own shot hurt. I think the envoy is hurt more by the reputation as a spoony bard that can't fight and the perceived need to max out charisma rather than any actual limitations of the class. My little mouse with the big gun has gotten more than a few "wait.. why is the envoy killing things?" type comments.
A mechanic with a heavy weapon and a robot with a heavy weapon/longarms hurt. The exocortex mechanic isn't bad either. But it involves going outside the box of "you are this class you use these weapons"
Being 10% more effective than the next guy at a skill means your party is a bit more effective at a skill.
Being 10% less effective than the next guy at combat than the guy next to you still means you're contributing 10 or 15 percent more damage to the party.
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It explicitly states that all of the bonuses for the tool kits are circumstance bonuses in the paragraph describing general tool kits (pg. 221).Ah, good catch. I'm used to the bonuses being listed explicitly next to the bonus, but you're absolutely right. On the bright side, circumstance bonuses generally stack unless from essentially the same source, so its not too different.
If your bonuses both come from tool kits, that is essentially the same source. The datajack and specialty tool kit are from different sources, so that is why I stack them. But if you've got the expert rig and thieves' tools, you'll only be getting a +4.
It explicitly states that all of the bonuses for the tool kits are circumstance bonuses in the paragraph describing general tool kits (pg. 221).Ah, good catch. I'm used to the bonuses being listed explicitly next to the bonus, but you're absolutely right. On the bright side, circumstance bonuses generally stack unless from essentially the same source, so its not too different.
When trying to compare operatives and mechanics and the other classes skill this kind of thing is something very important. Two bonuses of the same type don't stack. The biggest one I have seen mess people up is insight bonuses. Operatives often at a glance look really out of whack but once you realize insight bonuses don't stack mechanics and operatives stay pretty close with the mechanics pulling ahead over time.
Also if you take the technomancer/engineer/operative they tend to be good with different kinds of computer systems.
Technomancers are great with alien/ancient tech. Being able to deal with any language helps a TON on your checks for this kind of thing a couple quick spells and they are good to go.
Mechanics especially exocortex ones are the best in combat hackers being able to wirelessly hack stuff while you are not in physical contact with the device is a huge plus. It allows for stealthy hacking of personal computers at bars or other social gatherings that would not be possible for others.
Operatives especially early on are really good sit down and concentrate type hackers. Also they and the envoys are generally competent enough to attempt most computer checks reasonably even if not really specializing in it.
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It explicitly states that all of the bonuses for the tool kits are circumstance bonuses in the paragraph describing general tool kits (pg. 221).Ah, good catch. I'm used to the bonuses being listed explicitly next to the bonus, but you're absolutely right. On the bright side, circumstance bonuses generally stack unless from essentially the same source, so its not too different.When trying to compare operatives and mechanics and the other classes skill this kind of thing is something very important. Two bonuses of the same type don't stack. The biggest one I have seen mess people up is insight bonuses. Operatives often at a glance look really out of whack but once you realize insight bonuses don't stack mechanics and operatives stay pretty close with the mechanics pulling ahead over time.
While this is mostly true, "Circumstance bonuses arise from specific conditional factors affecting the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with other circumstance bonuses unless they arise from essentially the same source, in which case they do not stack."
When trying to compare operatives and mechanics and the other classes skill this kind of thing is something very important. Two bonuses of the same type don't stack.
Agreed. With circumstance bonuses being the only exception on page 266 of the core rule book.
In my case, since I do not think the custom rig provides a generic +2 circumstance bonus in SFS play (until such a tool kit is in print with a level of 6 or lower), the stacking I was considering was the datajack, coordinated assault, and the thieves' tools (depending on your reading, the rig counts as thieves' tools) when hacking the biometric locked doors on a starship for example.
On the other hand, I could see some GMs interpreting the hacking kit as your method of access rather than the data jack, so their might be some difference in interpretation on exactly which ones stack.
Mechanics especially exocortex ones are the best in combat hackers being able to wirelessly hack stuff while you are not in physical contact with the device is a huge plus. It allows for stealthy hacking of personal computers at bars or other social gatherings that would not be possible for others.
To be honest, places I wouldn't want to fight a high level mechanic include anything with a lot of automated heavy machinery. Or a high tech parking lot. Every single vehicle with an autopilot becomes a potential battering ram. Especially the one you're using for cover.
Its a definite no on the datajack being a +2 tool kit. The tool kit doesn't exist so the datajack can't be that tool. It would work as thieves tools, but thats only on a door
