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Greetings all. Recently, i've lost my third character to this AP-
Another PC also died in the same session- the party's Suli Bloodrager, our primary frontliner. Who is now considering a full caster, possible druid. So, now we're lacking a front liner with the rest of the party being a Bard w/ Ninja cohort, a Kineticist, and the GM's Pity-PC Healbot cleric.
So, i'm thinking of resuming a front liner position, with an animal companion. Top choices being a Hunter or Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor.
Hunters get access to nifty animal buffing Druid spells; Inquisitor has Bane.
Racewise, i'm leaning towards Dwarf or Half-Orc for flavor reasons. Maybe try to convince the GM to let me play a Skinwalker.
So, currently i'm looking to brainstorm ideas for 9th level build. I'm not against Mounted combat, though i'm unfamiliar with all the mechanics of such a build.
Lastly, i want to try to work in Scribe Scroll into the build. I do like the novelty of crafting scrolls outside of combat to not waste the spells slots.
I'll post my own ideas for such a build for critique when i get an idea of a direction.
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Yea, sorry- the character would be built at lvl 9.
also, just to clarify, i'd like an animal companion- as i'd be the primary front liner, and i'd rather have something that could take some of the aggression off of me.
I could go Pack Rager Barbarian and work in a way to get an Animal companion.
Alternatively, i could multiclass. Go 5 Inquisitor for Bane [possibly the Sanctified Slayer archetype] + 3 Hunter and build from there.
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Staying alive is an issue the way your GM runs games. An animal companion for a meat shield has failed to work at least once & a bloodrager died recently too. I think you need to think about keeping your AC as high as possible and the inquisitor spell list is better than the hunter list for that IMO.
9th level, non-human, first feat scribe scroll; that leaves you 4 feats to work with. Magda's back on this forum and reminding us all of the merits of using a reach weapon, so I'll suggest getting something like combat reflexes, bodyguard, improved unarmed strike and snake style. It's pretty defensive but that's what you look to need in this game.
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With Improved Spell Sharing and divine favor and power I think the inquisitor is strictly more powerful at this level.
The one warning is this inquisitor list lack flying spells so have a solution for that (you could go reach mounted flying is you wanted). I fount flying powerful in this AP.
Dont forget spell storing armor with stricken heart in it.
Rage domain or anger inqusition are great for DPS. Growth domain makes reach much more useful.
At 10 you can get greater invis which is awesome for a reach fighter.
Finally a high crit weapon keen Fauchard and paired oppertunit and outflank should make you a meat grinder.
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Staying alive is an issue the way your GM runs games. An animal companion for a meat shield has failed to work at least once & a bloodrager died recently too. I think you need to think about keeping your AC as high as possible and the inquisitor spell list is better than the hunter list for that IMO.
our deaths were on our own heads- we hadn't rested beforehand, nor did we scout or make a plan. we should have fled after we discovered our adversaries- all of whom could hit Touch AC at range. we opted a "kick in the door" assault, which is never the optimal plan when the enemy knows they're being assaulted.
And those four feats sound more like a monk build, than a hunter. Scribe Scroll isn't important, but just more utility than anything.
I could talk to my GM about getting an Ankylosaur animal companion [my PFS Druid has one]. We are planning on assaulting an encampment that's housing beasts that'll be used in a seige- maybe my companion was stolen from me... give me an excuse to join the party.
we have unfinished barding at another camp, we could use to armor up my companion.
Mounted Reach build? My GM was actually pushing a mounted archer Ranger build... i could go Ranger instead, get Mounted combat style and Boon Companion...
Ranger vs Hunter vs Inquisitor...
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For an archer build being mounted is great but you give up the melee damage and hp soak of your animal companions which is a lot to give up. Not to mention the improved to hit if you build a grappling companion.
I have a mounted (lance using) halfing buld that works in most situations great damage very hard to hit. Mine was an inquisitor (due to rangers having limit Animal choices) but you can make either work. If your on the ground 3 Int and dragon style is helpful.
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The one drawback i'm seeing about going Mounted combat oriented, is it won't leave me any feats for supplemental abilities.
1> Mounted Combat
AC> Toughness
2> -
AC> Dodge
3> Ride-by-Attack
AC> -
4> -
AC> -
5> Combat Reflexes
AC> Mobility
6> -
AC> -
7> ?
AC> -
8> -
AC> Improved Natural Attack
9> Vital Strike
AC> -
10> -
AC> ?
Alternatively, there is the Treestrider archetype- i get IUS as a bonus feat, and being wisdom base, i can go down various Style trees. And there's nothing about not being able to ride an Ape into combat.
Yeah. You could spend several more feats on mounted combat by 9th level, notably on spirited charge which would likely be much better than vital strike, but trick riding, wheeling charge and indomitable mount all have cases to make as well.
A climb speed seems like a weak replacement for animal focus and despite being useful I'm not sure IUS is a good replacement for outflank. Getting combat expertise then taking pack flanking as one of the hunter's teamwork feats makes outflank a near-permanent +4 to attack. Yes that's 3 feats (2 of them class bonus feats) but still, a +4 is a sizable amount.
This is your 4th character in this campaign as I understand it (and others have died too) which I'd have thought indicated that it was time to make a defensive and/or paranoid character. Which may indeed look monk-ish. That sort of death rate doesn't seem normal to me. Edit: I get that there's an immediate cause, but still, 4th character by 9th level.
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If your not taking spirited charge I would skip mounted combat and ride by attack and take things like power attack, pack flanking.
It's unlikely you will have the feats or stats but evoloved companion is good.
I maintain always taking iron will for animals.
If you go inquisitor that have tons of supplemental ability without needing to spend feat on those abilities. There are many good dips that can help the build.
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The one draw back to this build is one of my stats would be hurting to get my Wis high enough to cast spells. currently, the GM will approve on my gear [going to ask for a +2 Str Belt, and a +2 Wis headband]...
Currently, stats look like-
Human 18 (+2R, +1@4), 12 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 14 Wis (+1@8), 10 Cha
Hunter-
1> Power Attack, Mounted Combat
2> *Outflank
3> Combat Expertise, *Pack Flanking
4> -
5> Combat Reflexes
6> *Distracting Charge
7> Spirited Charge
8> -
9> Vital Strike/Trick Riding? *Escape Route?
if this character comes to fruition and survives long enough, i'd like to see him reach Mounted Skirmisher by 15th (since you need 14 ranks in Riding to qualify.). Until then, i could Quick Mount/Dismount after the charge.
I could take Dirty Fighting in place of Combat Expertise, then maybe i could consider Paired Opportunist at 9th.
my GM has okayed gaining an ankylosaur, with the story that my hunter and beastie are traveling mercenaries- and beastie was captured, and i'm aiming to get it back.
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The escape route is great.
There is a lot of debate about if a companion can attack on a flyby if it's reach is less than the riders. So, look it up and ask your GM because it could make distracted charge worthless.
What weapon are you using? Powerful charge is best with a lace. But for all the teamwork feats you and your AC have to be adjacent and they are best with high crit weapons.
Outflank paired opportunist with a high crit weapon is more damage in a round but escape route, lance, fly by, spirited charge is way safer and laughs at DR.
If you go charge horn of the Criosphinx is nice.
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Flying mounts like the owl has the same starting con as a tiger as does the buzzard as do a few others. Heron starts with 14 con. Most animal companion have good ac as the have scaling natural armor bonuses, a scaling Dex bonus and can use items.
A flying mount with ride by and escape route + mounted combat + skimeriser tricks is durable and cannot be targeted easily.
The Ankylosaur has good ac but it's starting con and str suck so it misses all the time thus drawing very little Argo. I have found them to be underwhelming tank and animal companions.
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I wonder if there's a god with an Owl as a sacred animal. If i were to go Inquisitor with Rage domain abilties, that limits the gods i could choose from. i was leaning towards Ragatheil...
Bane + Rage would make me a wrecking machine. it'd also allow my be viable on the ground, even though the character is built more for mounted aerial combat.
I don't know if Wheeling Charge/Fly-by-Attack would be needed
Now i just got to talk my GM into allowing me a Giant Owl mount...
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That death rate seems excessively high, although the OP clearly said the high death rate is on them. According to The Forge of Combat, where Sun Tzu meets Pathfinder, this party is not well balanced:
OP - unknown
Bard w/ Ninja ally - squishy support
Kineticist - squishy DPS
GMPC Healer - pure liability
So that's a party of three PCs and a DMPC healbot. WHile a team of only 3 main PCs can work, they'd better have their *&^*&^ together. Seems like the Bard provides support, filling the role of Arm.
Does the Kineticist do any Battlefield Control, aka the Anvil role? If not, then no one is filling that role, which is an obvious reason for group failure and high casualty rate.
The presence of a DMPC healbot makes things MUCH MUCH harder for the party. Not easier. Here's why:
* presence of GMPC healbot means that , chances are, no one is handling Damage Mitigation. The most efficient way to heal damage is no avoid it entirely. Mitigation >> Healing.
* presence of GMPC healbot indicates that PCs lack the tactical teamwork to function without one.
* the fact that GM thinks they need a GMPC healbot is a red flag that the GM thinks the group is weak.
* IMHO, the presence of a GMPC healbot tends to lead PCs towards awful tactics. After all, they have a healbot safety net. The fact that they recently tried a poorly considered 'smash in the front foor' approach bears this out.
* Good tactics should completely eliminate the need for a GMPC healbot. Balanced team that covers Tank, Battlefield Control, and Support should also eliminate need for healbot.
* Presence of healbot indicates weakness and vulnerability in team. A balanced, competent team is almost always better off without a healbot.
Other suggestions:
* As people said above, adding a defensive reach screen may help a lot. As I GM, I've observed that teams who deploy an effective reach screen tend to be more successful than those who do not. I hope the Bard already does his/her part to protect the party and carries a longspear!
* Perhaps get the other players thinking about Battlefield Control and Damage Mitigation. Those two tactical approaches can drastically improve surivival rate and general team effectiveness.
Good luck!
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Focus is rarely used after level 5 for your primary stat because it you have a belt and you want your primary up all the time so the focus goes into con. The second focus only ads a bit to AC or a utility power.
@ Magda kineticist are con based. Every one I have ever seen has the most hp at the table. Most don't accumulate enough non leathal for this not to be true for the whole day.
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OP - unknown
Bard w/ Ninja ally - squishy support
Kineticist - squishy DPS
GMPC Healer - pure liability
Party was:
Suli Bloodrager (DPS)Arcanist (Occulist arctetype)
Bard w/ Ninja Cohort
Kineticist
and Pity-PC Cleric
yes, we realized the party was horribly unbalanced... we managed though. The Cleric was a possible replacement for another character that had died- but he never returned to the party, so the GM kept the Healbot around.
*We originally started this campaign with 6 players, but two dropped out with IRL stuff interfering with availability.
Our recent deaths came as a result of poor planning and failure to read the situation as a poor one.
Though, with our DPS unit opting for a possible caster unit, that leaves the need for a DPS unit... Hunter or something with martial abilities and an animal companion means double the DPS potential.
If i go Aerial- i rely on Fly-By-Attacks; on the ground- i could go reach and command my bird for a swoop and swipe. is there a skirmisher trick for "grab and drop?"
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Here's one outrageously strong animal companion approach that combines especially well with any PC who wields a reach weapon.
Warning: this approach is so powerful that you are in danger of eclipsing other PCs. Only do this if you really need the extra defensive power. With your imbalanced party it seems you do.
I've played several PCs with this type of animal companion/mount.
* It's OK to leave you mount at home, or outside the dungeon
* Sometimes in combat, when the pet is obviously dominant and especially when foes are already prone, both PC and pet would sometimes eschew their standard action, yell out, "Surrender or die" and only move. This still leaves foes prone & inside a reach screen. Foes have to decide to either stand up (which is almost certain death: 2+ AoOs at extra +8 to hit for ~20 hp each) or stay down, which is tantamount to surrendering.
* Pay careful attention to where you end your turn. Your combined defensive screen coverage is a 30 foot diameter circle.
* Very few foes can move through your defensive screen if you deploy a teamwork feat: either Paired Opportunists or Tandem Trip. Two trips, with either Advantage or at an extra +4 CMB, will take down most foes. The foe takes massive punishment (~40 hp) if it tries to stand up again.
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There is a raw case to be made that no animal companion except those that explicitly have reach in there stat block get reach. One example is Mokele-Mbembe. Animal companions have there own stat blocks and ther e size advancement says nothing about gaining reach becuase the creature from the bestiary gets it. I would double check with your gm.
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Question still begs- is two Animal Focus and more animal-friendly spells, better than bane, rage-domain?
Honestly, as a Hunter or Inquisitor, i'd want to keep Spell-Sharing- Shield/Barkskin on my AC will help keep it around.
also, wouldn't Standing up only provoke ONE attack of opportunity?
also, how do you estimate a 30* diameter circle as my threat range?
Axe Beak is definitely a smart choice, compared to a Great Owl or Ankylosaur
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I think natural attack focused spells are trumped by spell share and cleric buffs (divine favor/power, righteous might). Then blown out of the water by improved spell sharing and those same buffs. Rage and bane are icing on the cake.
Generally, if I want druid spells and an animal companion I play a druid. If I want to be a weapon uses with feats I play a natures fang, or if I want rage goliath or something like a Ranger 1, Goliath Druid Shapeshifting Hunter.
You don't need spell share for barkskin and shield is on neither list If your casting min per level for AC don't forget shield of faith.
Consider DR from defending bone, clay skin, resinous skin.
AOO: it is one per creature threatening it. Then those aoos proc a second because of paired opportunist.
Enemies that provoke attacks of opportunity from your ally also provoke attacks of opportunity from you so long as you threaten them (even if the situation or an ability would normally deny you the attack of opportunity).
30ft comes from 2 creatures with reach.
xxaxxpxx line formation
or riding formation (occupying all of the Animals squares).
xxxxxx
xxxxxx
xxaaxx
xxaaxx
xxxxxx
xxxxxx
Note that in many situations the corners drop off that bottom diagram Grandlounge. They're 15' away and while they exist in some virtual sense to prevent people avoiding AoOs for moving in via them, if someone is just trying to get past you rather than approach you they don't exist then.
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I don't know what you are trying to say. I don't know what you mean by 'corners drop of' in game terms. Though I'm a little rusty as
recent I have been playing less, so I may be being dense.
That's a large creature with 10ft of reach or a large amount medium rider with 10ft of reach, which I believe are covered by this faq the Xs are all the legal threatened squares if geared up appropriately.
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Can i charge with any reach weapon, or do only Lances have the "4x damage" on charge bonus?
There are few non-Evil gods that have Rage subdomain, and fewer have a reach weapon as a reach weapon as a "sacred weapon". I think Ragathel is still my best option
what sort of feats should i look into for an Axe Beak?
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It has nothing to do with number of round it has to do with losing you offensive ability when you need better senses and evasion. Think about it this way how much does evasion or blind sense cost for 90 rounds? Compared to buying permanent +1 to attack and damage. Different strokes either way can work it depends on varied the combats you experience are. This applies more to inquisitor who only have one for most of their levels.
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It sounds like your being dismissive I did not mean to start anything but how one buys gear for a build is on topic for which the OP would want to play. We are just sharing similar opinions just weighted slightly differently. It is also an important point in playing the different characters because inquisitor's do not necessarily want to spend thier first swift action on duplicating one of the big six as they have several better options. But like I said it's a matter of preference it gets you to the same numbers eventually.
A bunch of my thoughts on the comparison for the OP
The hunter gets one more feat not feats unless I'm miscounting.
Hunters have the edge in weapons but lance, grave, falcion, kukri, bastard sword, guisarme, great sword, ranseur, and naganata are available through worship. It's not the top tier fauchard, falcata, etc but it's not so simple as simple v martial. Some of these can require odd worship which I don't love but some people like the challange.
Spells divine favor and power are arguable the best person buff spells in the game. Heroism likewise. Instant weapon makes very dangerous Incorporeals a joke. Align weapon is a great low level solution to a tough problems. Inheritors smite is amazing on a charge build.
Magic vestment is great if you will be using a shield as a lance user.
Hunters have barkskin, magic fang and the greater version, resinous skin, several other great or good spells but I see the edge going to put inquisitor because the list has a limited selection of spells that help weapon based combat.
Destructive smite from the rage domain is a killer and should not be over looked. This ability with inheritors smite is a ver potetent opening move.
Interms of class features that save money. Furious + bane means you will be over coming Dr epic at this level. And you have magic weapon for you backup weapon which can cover BSP (which ever you are missing), magic, and what ever special material you make it out of.
Finally, I think I have a build the address most of Cavall's quite reasonable points.
Ravener Hunter and Sacrificed Slayer. You get an animal companion plus an additional revelation you get studied target and some sneak attack to off set rage loss, at level 8 you will catch up on feats while also skipping prereqs which would be huge for this build (you can use extra slayer talent at 9 to get spirited charge saving you on feat in the tree).
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No worries we are all jsut trying to help.
I will add to that resist energy comes in at a bargin, strong jaw, life bubble is a steal!
The one of the most entertain moves on a pouncing animal using flash forward.
Overall utility I'm undecide on the better spell list. I think the inquisitor wins for class features and skill.
True strike is an answer to concealment, more remove spells, see invis (though Hunters have dearie fire), lower level dispel for some reason, silence, restoration, sending, break enchantment, tongues.
Hunters have sever no save control spells, windwall, endure elements, insect spies, explorations spells, water walk, water breathing, echolocation.
For utility I would say it is really close. The deciding factors for me would be what does the group have access to and what do you expect to face. Undead, outsiders, etc. inquisitor seem better, outdoor adventure seems like your going to want some of those druid/ranger spells.
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Right now, i'm leaning more towards Hunter, as someone pointed out- Inquisitor doesn't get Fly.
And Hunter makes more sense than a traveling Inquisitor of ragathel finding himself in Nirmathas, amidst the invasion... Hunters can play the part of travelling mercenary a bit more- and that's how i'm pitch the character to the GM.
Granted, i am losing a lot of DPS by opting out of Bane and Rage Domain.
in hte worst case- if the hunter build dies, i'll just rebuild him as as inquisitor as see how that goes.
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Currently, stats look like-
Human 18 (+2R, +1@4), 12 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 14 Wis (+1@8), 10 Cha
Hunter-
1> Power Attack, Mounted Combat
2> *Outflank
3> Combat Expertise, *Pack Flanking
4> -
5> Combat Reflexes
6> *Distracting Charge
7> Spirited Charge
8> -
9> Vital Strike/Trick Riding? *Escape Route?
Axe Beak:
21 Str/19 Dex/16 Con/3 Int/11 Wis/10 cha
i'm thinking featwise, it'd be funny to do something like:
Iron Will, Body Guard, In Harm's Way, Combat Reflexes as feats for the Axe Beak.
Axe Beak uses Body Guard/In Harm's Way to take the damage from an attack, then i use my Riding check through Mounted Combat to negate the damage if that a way In Harm's Way works with Mounted Combat.
Question becomes- if i use my Animal Focus to give my Companion claw attacks, does that enable the Multiattack feat she's gotten at 9th?
At 11th, I'll most likely take that Planar Focus feat, and give us levitation if we are ever knocked out during combat.
At 10th, I'll most likely give the Axe Beak Improved Natural Attack.
And as i said, in the worst case, if he dies- he comes back as an Inquisitor of Ragathel with a Giant Owl.
>edit<... ... Um, i don't think Fly is on the Druid list. There's Raven's Flight and Air Walk, but not Fly...
Spirited charge requires ride-by attack as a prereq.
If I were running the game then if the companion gained more natural attacks they'd get the multiattack feat and lose the extra bite attack while they had those attacks. However animal focus doesn't have an option for adding natural attacks, and if you added claws to the existing bite attack multiattack would be useless since neither bite nor claws is a secondary natural attack anyway.
@Grandlounge: yes, you're right. It looks like they reversed that FAQ five years ago and I never noticed.
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Multiattack is odd. SKR said that if you have greater then three attacks you get and extra one at -5. This was never formalized into an faq but was used for the example animal companions which in the NPC codex. ( Here is one of many examples
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Air walk is effectly a fly spell with fewer checks. It fills the roll of a fly spell.
What kind of armour will you be wearing because it can make depending on mounted combat hard.
Remeber to check with your gm to see if animal companion get reach when they go large. Becuase if they don't outflank and pack flanking are doing nothing.
I love bodyguard animal companions. I'm undecided if that combo works with mounted combat but I'm leaning towards it working but I need to think on the wording a bit.
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GM has approved that a Large Axe Beak animal companion would have Reach.
I'm thinking- charge with Lance, switch to something else- like a Guisarme or Lucerne Hammer, since i'm not charging.
As for my Mounted Body Guard build,
Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as an immediate action) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll.
When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s AC. You may not use the aid another action to improve your ally’s attack roll with this attack.
While using the aid another action to improve an adjacent ally’s AC, you can intercept a successful attack against that ally as an immediate action, taking full damage from that attack and any associated effects (bleed, poison, etc.). A creature cannot benefit from this feat more than once per attack.
if it works, it's double chance to negate damage. Granted, since IHW is an immediate action, i can only do it once per round.
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Never mind, found An old thread where a Dev says "No, doesn't work" Logic being the mount is purposefully intercepting the attack. There is no attack roll made against the mount, for Mounted Combat to skirt around.
Ah well, Body Guard would still a worthwhile feat
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@Selvaxri: Bodyguard and In Harms Way may disappoint. Read it carefully. You must be adjacent not just in reach. Interpreted strictly RAW, Bodyguard rarely procs. It seems like it should be great but often fails when you need it to work. It depends too heavily upon precise unit placement on the map grid.
I suspect you'll not want to bother switching weapons after a charge. Maybe just pick one and stick to it. Of course, lances break, which is why a squire would ways carry a spare or three.
Consider delaying your mounted feats until at least 4th level. Through 3rd level your mount will be Medium and thus too small to ride.
I've played a mounted PC with Mounted Combat and found it not very helpful. My mount was killed frequently by magic. I'd instead take a Teamwork feat or something else. It doesn't provide the degree of protection one might want or expect.
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It's true. There is an FAQ that makes the reach part explicit.
The tricks to mounted melee combat are:
Be small or have a non-charge option (cavaliers should save challange for when they can't charge).
Have a mount with good con and focus on durability (toughness, iron will).
Use shield companion so your mount can tank like crazy. Let them focus on your mount. It will be to there folly.
I have a tiger solo tank a double session in Eye's of the Ten so it can be done.