Emerald Spire Character Selection Help


Advice


If there's one thing I've learned over my past couple of games: You can bring the wrong character to a game. In my Starfinder game, I made an Intimidate-focused character with unarmed as their main weapon, only to find out pretty much everything was a plant, undead, or construct making nearly all my class abilities worthless. In a run of Shattered Star, I brought a character who had a really long period offline waiting for specific feats and the challenge ratings of the AP escalated too quickly to keep up.

So one of my friends picked up the Emerald Spire, and as of yet he doesn't quite know what the power level of the module is (other than going from levels 1-15). I've got 13 characters in the backburner of varying concepts I enjoyed and want to play, and of varying power levels. I don't wanna make my party obsolete (nor do I know what they want to play yet), but I wanna be on-par minimum for the module. So listed by my opinion on their power weakest (or most in need of investment) to strongest, which 3 would be best for the module? So I can pick one and have my mini ordered and painted before game start.

- Tiefling White Haired Witch
Focused on the grab mechanic of the White Hair (Su) ability and maximizing those chances. Very self-buffing and CC, but low BAB and feat reliance makes this probably my weakest character concept.

- Drow Wildsoul (Arachnid) Vigilante
I love this character. Unarmed focus around Boar Style, Nightmare Fist (with Greater Drow Nobility at-will Deeper Darkness), and intimidating all the things all the time. Downside takes about 5 levels to get properly rolling, and until then damage is bad. Also not sure hiw well a Vigilante will work in a superdungeon (will be consistently in one area for Renown, but simultaneously in a dungeon where things will likely not have heard of me).

- Dhampir Oathkeeper Inquisitor of Asmodeus
Pretty good character, only so low because of the focus on using the Heavy Wrist Launcher which without Rapid Reload available is an arguably horrible weapon. The archtype also likely won't come into play much in a superdungeon, but I could be wrong.

- Kitsune Weretouched Shifter
A good Natural Attacks build. Lots of stacked on damage with Shifter's Edge and the Bull Aspect. Skills wise this character is also a bit of a healer which is good diversity. Really not sure how well a wilderness character will fair though in a superdungeon. Plus Pounce with the character is really only do-able once at the beginning of combat without spending a turn returning all the way back to human form to trigger Vulpine Pounce a second time.

- Half-Elf Musket Master Gunslinger 5/Sniper Rogue
One of my few multiclass characters. All the racial traits have been swapped for a half-Drow, so much like the Vigilante this is another Deeper Darkness at-will abuse character. This time using the darkness, staying out of combat for the most part and just using the sniping rules for everything. Full concealment, See in Darkness, and basically no penalties for sniping just makes the character deadly, but lower on the list because if a party isn't prepared for deeper darkness it can be a detriment to the party they're in.

- Suli Gloomblade Fighter
Two-weapon fighting, high Str high Dex, Sawtooth Sabre build. Mix of combination feats with the racial elemental assault and Incremental Elemental Assault feat mean this character is all about the full attack as as much extra damage on each attack as possible. Downside, can't manifest 2 Gloomblade weapons simultaneously until level 7 which slows up the build a bit.

- Kobold Hinyasi Brawler
Throw rocks for dumb damage. Being small is arguably bad, a different race would be better, but making this character was a deliberate challenge. Shikigami Style with the Brawler damage dice leads to VERY powerful hits, even though the race is small. Heavy feat reliance though means Martial Flexibility is going to be burnt very quickly for the early levels just to keep up, and isn't really hitting the good damage levels till 6 since the Hinyasi focus is light thrown on the build for Finesse.
*I actually need to rework this character a little. It was the first thrown character I built, and didn't realize thrown uses Str without Finesse, so I need to squeeze Finesse early into the build, which means pushing the fully online level back, and likely losing out on something in the higher levels.

- Aasimar Champion of the Faith Warpriest of Iomedae
That's a mouthful. Greatsword build that takes advantage of the Law and Sun domains to have a flaming smiting Greatsword. Build heavy into Power Attack, Hurtful, Cornugon Smash for intimidate multi-Power Attacking destruction. Pretty standard middle of the road power character.

- Kitsune Fractured Mind Spiritualist
Lust emotional focus on the phantom leads to a conflict, in that Fractured Mind doesn't have listed SLAs for it, which sucks. Default thought is that the SLAs just default to Spiritualist Standard. Pretty much an Enchantment spell abuse character with the Lust Phantom playing debuff tank rolls. Lots of battlefield manipulation but shut down by immunity to mind-affecting.

- Human Flying Blade Swashbuckler
What if I told you that every time this character was attacked, they got to make an attack of opportunity? A very powerful character when it hits 11, though comes online at 3 playing with Panache limits. A thrown-focus character with the dagger that cannot be approached for fear of free AoO. It's nice.

- Dwarf Makeshift Scrapper Rogue
Hit them with the shovel! Shikigami Style, Vital Strike, Sneak Attack... A Str-based rogue that will massacre you with a shovel. It starts arguably good, only thing stopping it from being top 3 is that there wasn't really a racial choice that supported it well enough that wasn't 3rd party (Half-Giant would have been fun). Good action economy in that standard action gets all the damage, or swaps sneak for disarm to keep getting sneak from Catch Off Guard.

- Sylph Sigilus Magus
Shocking Grasp ALL the things. Most people know metamagic abuse on casters, and how powerful casters can get. Biggest downside will be if there's an abundance of electric resist enemies, and thus waiting on Fencing Grace at level 11. Will be able to fly by then though without magic due to Sylph feats though, and the Sigilus bonuses are going to mean massive AC and resistances in light armor.

- Drow Synthesist Unchained Summoner
Another deeper darkness abuse character? What a surprise. Arguably the strongest character I've made. With the Shadow subtype on the Unchained Eidolon, more darkness=more abuse. Free See in Darkness, and without items all the stats wind up over 12, with at least 2 in surplus of 20. It's disgusting, though obviously weak to banishment. Even then though, augmented spider summoning and extra HP on HD for demons means that the enemy needs a lot of banishment ready if they're going to totally shut down this character.


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Without giving any spoilers: Emerald Spire (like many superdungeons) provides heavy combat and a wide variety of "dungeon-y" and magical challenges in a confined space. A versatile character will treat you better than a one-trick-pony. Even your more martial classes should be built with a range of combats in mind, with both melee and ranged options and answers to common hazards and challenges. Emerald Spire is also a "low wealth" adventure, so keep that in mind.

Many of the character concepts you've suggested here are going to be really effective when they work, and either disappointing or a liability when they don't, and they don't have access to a lot of problem solving tools. Not knowing the exact builds you're using, here are some broad categories:

Too Narrow/ Too Binary
Kitsune Fractured Mind Spiritualist - Focusing too hard on a strategy that gets blanked by common challenges and foes is risky.
Human Flying Blade Swashbuckler - These types of builds are only as good as the GM is willing to play monsters as brain-dead.
Dwarf Makeshift Scrapper Rogue - Another combat strategy that gets blanked by a lot of different situations.

Plays Poorly with Others
Drow Wildsoul (Arachnid) Vigilante - Deeper darkness every combat sounds like a way to get your party to strangle you.
Half-Elf Musket Master Gunslinger 5/Sniper Rogue - Deeper darkness again, see above.
Drow Synthesist Unchained Summoner - Just don't do this unless you're trying to solo the Emerald Spire.

Fine But Not Versatile
Kitsune Weretouched Shifter - Sounds like a big damage build without too many other tools. Fine, but it'll need support from casters.
Suli Gloomblade Fighter - Big damage build again, see above.
Kobold Hinyasi Brawler - Big damage, but at least this has a ranged option.

Probably Fine
Tiefling White Haired Witch - Disregarding the grabbing aspect, its still a full caster with all the tools that provides.
Aasimar Champion of the Faith Warpriest of Iomedae - Big damage build, but on a class with more flexible resources if needed.
Sylph Sigilus Magus - Big damage magus, and able to prep some utility spells when needed.

Not Sure
Dhampir Oathkeeper Inquisitor of Asmodeus - Being a six-level divine caster means you have some useful tools, but the comments about (Heavy Wrist Launcher) suggest a gimmicky build devoting too many resources to a weak combat strategy that will be a liability in the long run.


Yeah, I realize now lack of exact builds paints most of the characters in a binary nature, as most I only described their primary intention. Most if not all do have secondary function, or more information that changes things.

The Spiritualist is secondary healer, and does take Spirit Symbiosis as early as possible in order to branch out with different SLAs and Phantom Types for encounters. Though such a strategy does generally require some scouting from the party.

The Swashbuckler, I do know my GM. They don't tend to play monsters dumb, but a lot of my own playstyle either forces enemy hands or lets me get away with stuff. Deliberate steals without improved, lack of using Withdraw in order to provoke and escape with a Startoss. I encourage my GM to call me on my s*~!, and also anticipate my party to support my nonsense (I've earned a pretty good track record with them that I know what I'm doing).

Makeshift Scrapper... Yeah, it's a big focus on either Sneak or Combat Maneuvers. Rogue skill points are in a lot of the good areas, but without Trapfinding magical traps are a bit of a weakness.

Vigilante, deeper darkness doesn't come online for the build until 11, at-will not till 13. Most of the focus is into building the intimidate until then. By that point, True Seeing will be more than accessible to the party (plus as we discovered in our Iron Gods run, Darkvision races are pretty common choices at the table). I've also gotten away with worse that constant darkness and my table knows my nonsense. That said, the Vigilante's secondary functions include poison, and a variety of skills making them a secondary rogue-type.

Half-Elf won't get at-will deeper until 16, so same spell accessibility, however their 2/day deeper comes in at 10, so yeah. Skill monkey though primarily going for Stealth and Disable. They're actually a U Rogue with Catch-Off Guard and Dex-Damage with Improvised Light, namely the Stilleto Boots she wears. No Shikigami, just backup option for when she's snuck up on.

Synthesist, yeah. About what I expected, way too strong for party play Though as a point of interest, deeper at will is pushed to 19th level, instead favoring extra evolution for the combination of Poison, Frightful Presence, Pounce, Web and other options.

Shifter, secondary healer as said. Runs down stuff like Master Alchemist, Harvest Parts. Also the Keen Kitsune and swapped racials to get the Skilled trait, so a good number of skill points in a few useful places most Shifters wouldn't have enough for.

Gloomblade... Also yeah. Arguably he's probably the weakest character in terms of getting out of his primary comfort zone. He can manifest thrown weapons as a Gloomblade but he's way more focused on the one thing he can do as a fighter: damage.

Brawler, yep. Ranged primary, has unarmed secondary. He's fun for what he does, but you're more correct on lack of versatility outside of combat.

Witch. Pass for Human to count as humanoid, spell choices rely heavy on Transmutation to supplement combat (Strength patron Giant Form being a big one). They can always learn new spells though, so there's power there.

Warpriest, good to know. They are secondary healer since I got pretty much all the offense I wanted from feats, archtype and domains.

Magus has a few troubles with the more common utility spells just because of being a Sigilus. At least with Spell Combat, which is most of the Magus' action economy. They are pretty pure combat.

Inquisitor. The entire build only has 1 Heavy Wrist Launcher specific feat, and it isn't taken until 13. Prior to that, the Hand Crossbow does everything the same, it's standards like Shot on the Run, Parting Shot. I'm aiming for that enchantment that makes ammunition into a shadow so it doesn't need reloading. Like many others on my list, the Inquisitor is also a strong skill character. I have a problem with making non-skill characters.

Silver Crusade

@OP: I've played and GMd in Emerald Spire Superdungeon. Expect lots of dungeon combat of varied sorts. Most of those characters would be viable with the right team. Leave the Synthesist at home as way too powerful. Perhaps discuss party composition [The Forge of Combat, where Sun Tzu meets Pathfinder] with the other players.

I'm slightly surprised that your wide PC selection includes only one character who protects their team with a reach screen: the white haired witch. As a GM, in my experience those parties which deploy a credible reach screen tend to have an easier time of it than those parties which do not. It's super-obvious to the GM, because the GM moves all the monsters and must thus contend with any defensive screens the party deploys.

I don't know whether this observation is due to the actual defensive reach screen, or due to the teamwork required to effectively deploy the screen. Either way, I've observed it as one indicator of a teams' general combat prowess.

P.s. I'll add that, looking at those PCs, the White Haired Witch strikes me as the 2nd most powerful (after broken Summoner), not the weakest, of that lot. WHW may be a weak archetype, but it's still a Tier I Full Prepared Caster.

P.P.s. When I say "powerful" just above I mean "brings the most to a team" not "able to defeat the other in single combat".

Grand Lodge

Just to clarify a few things...
1. The Emerald Spire is a 16 floor dungeon, with 3 level spread limits as to what level characters you can have in each floor. Frex, you start in floor 1 using character sizes 1-3, then go on to a 2-4 floor. As there are 16 floors and the last floor is 11-13, you are going to have to go slow (if you are doing this in PFS), or otherwise not outgrow the dungeon.

2. Are you running the dungeon only? There are plot threads that occur in and around the nearby town. My group (which is 13 floors down/level 9-11) are going dungeon only, so I can't speak to/spoil things going on in town. But it makes a difference if you are building only for a dungeon; your characters don't need as much versatility. Ask your judge.

3. The nearby town is exactly that: a town. You can't get a lot of the more potent gear there (if you are in PFS, then you have downtime to travel to a big city). A build that needs equipment not found in the loot could be a problem. Once again, ask your judge.

4. My group has waffle-stomped multiple levels for two reasons: a) the dungeon was designed for 4 PCs, and we often have more. b) two of the players have really brutal swashmonklers, that generate 3-6 attacks of opportunity each round. Not just for each other, but for other melee players too. Our group is combat heavy and skills/knowledge light; we would have significant problems in many PFS scenarios.


Witch. My answer to everything. While I like the white Haired witch for its flavour/quirkiness I could never bring myself to give up witch hexes (the ability to ignore SR, be almost immune to any effect with a fort save, the ability to effectively debuff/shutdown enemies even when I've run out of spells and so on). I wonder if the WHW would be any good using the Bodyguard feat? I would think you as a tiefling you'd have good dex so you could make the most out of Combat Reflexes for extra attacks of opportunity. I don't know how feat intensive the WHW is but vmc cavalier with the order of the dragon would allow you to grant allies a +5 to AC with Aid Another. If you want to focus on CC/restraining enemies the order of the penitent could be a good option with it giving Expert Captor.

When it come to other vmc options I think the rogue adds a nice mix of abilities that provide increased utility (Trapfinding), offence (sneak attack) and defence (Evasion, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge). I can see all of these being useful for the WHW (would sneak attack apply to the constrict ability?) Actually the more I look at vmc the more I think it's a good option for the WHW. The sorcerer could be a good option with bloodlines that grant a touch attack ability that would benefit from your increased reach, however these are usually 3+Charisma mod per day which might hurt. Another vmc option you could look into is the monk (it gives some nice defensive abilities and witches tend to lack strong defensive options) to see if you're allowed to use you hair as an unarmed strike thus increasing your damage. The magus vmc (which I like the most) ties in nicely with the shared key stat; arcane pool let's you enhance your hair attacks (I think an enhancement bonus to you hear should also apply to your hair-based grapple CMB and at later levels you could have flaming hair), there's definitely a few magus arcana that would be very useful (use int for wand DCs with Wand Mastery and Maneuver Mastery would be good if it uses your character level as your magus level) spellstrike would let you cast a touch spell (chill touch is a good candidate), make an attack and grapple in one round. I've not looked at all of them but I'm sure other classes such as the oracle and alchemist have lots to offer too. Witch. My answer to everything. While I like the white Haired witch for its flavour/quirkiness I could never bring myself to give up witch hexes (the ability to ignore SR, be almost immune to any effect with a fort save, the ability to effectively debuff/shutdown enemies even when I've run out of spells and so on). I wonder if the WHW would be any good using the Bodyguard feat? I would think you as a tiefling you'd have good dex so you could make the most out of Combat Reflexes for extra attacks of opportunity. I don't know how feat intensive the WHW is but vmc cavalier with the order of the dragon would allow you to grant allies a +5 to AC with Aid Another. If you want to focus on CC/restraining enemies the order of the penitent could be a good option with it giving Expert Captor.

Actually I take back what I said at the start, with vmc options I could very well be tempted to give up hexes for the WHW.


The White Haired Witch is enormously too feat dependent to variant multiclass effectively. At least the build I went for.

Finesse was good, but grapple isn't a finessable combat maneuver, and you only get Int to grapple on the initial check, not to maintain. There's essentially all sorts of little things that bite at what the White Haired Witch is supposed to do. You need Feral Combat Training for pretty much all grapple-boosting feats, and without it your 1/2 BAB is going to make hitting with your hair to get Int grabs nearly impossible.

The Magus VMC does offer Maneuver Mastery, which is a +4 boost at the earliest level you can get it (7th), and respectable, but it means you're locked out of Feral Combat Training until 9, which is way too late for investment. By that point the non-vmc build has Improved Grapple and Kraken Style supplementing the build for the same value, and continue prereqs for Greater Grapple (takeable at 12 using the granted Rogue Talent, the earliest it can be taken) which lets you start grappling multiple times to stack damage since hair is a super weird limb. The vmc would push Greater Grapple to we'll say 13 assuming your rogue talent was now spent on Improved Grapple.

You'd have no room for magic feats at all just getting the vmc version rolling.

Originally I did the build regular multiclass with 1 level of unchained monk in order to kickstart the feats and BAB, since you get Improved Unarmed and Improved Grapple at start, but in the long run that version of the build leaned on Stunning Fist into Neckbreaker, which because of a lack of Grapple maintenance you were never in a position to really use.


Egil Firehair wrote:

Just to clarify a few things...

3. The nearby town is exactly that: a town. You can't get a lot of the more potent gear there (if you are in PFS, then you have downtime to travel to a big city). A build that needs equipment not found in the loot could be a problem. Once again, ask your judge.

4. My group has waffle-stomped multiple levels for two reasons: a) the dungeon was designed for 4 PCs, and we often have more. b) two of the players have really brutal swashmonklers, that generate 3-6 attacks of opportunity each round. Not just for each other, but for other melee players too. Our group is combat heavy and skills/knowledge light; we would have significant problems in many PFS scenarios.

(3) After discussing the game, Half of My players came back with characters that likely would have broken half a dozen Laws before getting out the front gate, so I had to go with the alternative town of Thornkeep, good if you were lucky to grab a copy when it came out.

(4) Also seeing some stomping with a 5 PC + Animal Companion, which an Animal Companion is not recommended as it can both cause problems and in some encounters, be a serious liability(party just entered that stage...)


Isaac Zephyr wrote:

The White Haired Witch is enormously too feat dependent to variant multiclass effectively. At least the build I went for.

Finesse was good, but grapple isn't a finessable combat maneuver, and you only get Int to grapple on the initial check, not to maintain. There's essentially all sorts of little things that bite at what the White Haired Witch is supposed to do. You need Feral Combat Training for pretty much all grapple-boosting feats, and without it your 1/2 BAB is going to make hitting with your hair to get Int grabs nearly impossible.

The Magus VMC does offer Maneuver Mastery, which is a +4 boost at the earliest level you can get it (7th), and respectable, but it means you're locked out of Feral Combat Training until 9, which is way too late for investment. By that point the non-vmc build has Improved Grapple and Kraken Style supplementing the build for the same value, and continue prereqs for Greater Grapple (takeable at 12 using the granted Rogue Talent, the earliest it can be taken) which lets you start grappling multiple times to stack damage since hair is a super weird limb. The vmc would push Greater Grapple to we'll say 13 assuming your rogue talent was now spent on Improved Grapple.

You'd have no room for magic feats at all just getting the vmc version rolling.

Originally I did the build regular multiclass with 1 level of unchained monk in order to kickstart the feats and BAB, since you get Improved Unarmed and Improved Grapple at start, but in the long run that version of the build leaned on Stunning Fist into Neckbreaker, which because of a lack of Grapple maintenance you were never in a position to really use.

From what I can see on the d20pfsrd Weapon Finesse page I think you could make a case that that the WHW can use Weapon Finesse to grapple with their hair. Their hair is a natural weapon and Weapon Finesse sates that "Natural weapons are considered light weapons". Now the FAQ on Weapon Finesse does state that "Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver" and that For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB ( Str instead of Dex). Note however that is says "normally", this leave room for 'not-normal' situations and the WHW is very much 'not-normal'. Weapon Finesse excludes grapple not because of a clear proscription but rather a de facto outcome of the lack of finesse weapons with which the grapple combat manoeuvre can easily be performed. There might be something somewhere that I'm not aware of my as I see it you should be allowed to use Weapon Finesse for you hair-based grapple CMB.

Could you not forgo Feral Combat Training and take Dirty Fighting instead? That way you won't have to take Weapon Focus (giving it up is not ideal but there's more interesting feats out there and you can use arcane pool to add a +1 to hit and damage for one minute which helps offset this loss) and once you take Improved Grapple you'd get a +4 bonus to grapple flanked opponents. Since you're playing a tiefling you could also ask you GM if they'll allow you to select the +2 bonus on combat manoeuvre checks in place of your spell-like ability.

Assuming one can take the alternative race trait and use Weapon Finesse with grapple the WHW might look something like this:

1: Weapon Finesse
3: Arcane Pool
5: Dirty Fighting
7: Arcana: Maneuver Mastery
9: Improved Grapple

Also if you have dex to hit/cmb the Agility might make the better patron as you's get Cat's Grace and the every useful Haste.


here is something with a lot of flexible options and a secret top weapon to boot (that can be set out from level 1):
Undine, Adaptive shifter. the archtype give you a LOT of options that can be pulled out in a moment notice. AND the ability to get a BITE attack on a race with ACID BREATH ability as one of it's alt racial abilities let you start out with one of the most broken feats EVER Noxious Bite.(don't forget to take 'ability focus(breath weapon)' when you can for +2 dc)
-have fun with that...

Silver Crusade

Were I going to play a White Haired Witch in Emerald Spire I'd probably specialize in something unrelated to the hair, like battlefield control and/or summoning. The hair, with it's lone Combat Reflexes feat, would be my primary defense. For example, perhaps combine the Rime Spell feat with some [COLD] magic like the Frost Fall witch spell for 100% lockdown battlefield control.

Hair would be my defense when it's not my turn. If a foe wants to close to melee distance they must contend with a trip and grab from the hair. I'd rarely want to use the hair on my own turn: Witch is a primary spell caster.

The primary combat role of such a PC would be Battlefield Control. I.e. Set up the battlefield to give your side tactical advantage. That's generally enough to guarantee a win, even if that's all you do.

Anyway, that's how I might do such a PC.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
Hair would be my defense when it's not my turn. If a foe wants to close to melee distance they must contend with a trip and grab from the hair. I'd rarely want to use the hair on my own turn: Witch is a primary spell caster.

You'd have a very rough time with the trip. Primarily because it's a Swift action to use on hit, so you can only trip on your turn. Secondary because unlike the grab it doesn't get Int to the CMB roll, so you're looking at raw Str and 1/2 BAB.

This is kind of what I mean with the White Haired Witch being self-defeating. If it functioned like the Prehensile Hair Hex where the hair's Str = your Int, then pretty much all of its pitfalls would be solved. It wouldn't need all this extra feat support to function.

Silver Crusade

@Issac: I think there's some minor misunderstanding about how the White Haired Witch archetype works. At least, how we understood it to work the various times I've GMd for various WHW PCs in PFS. it's not great but it's not as bad as you seem to think.

It's actually a free action, not a swift action, to grab. That leads to this FAQ [Is there such a thing as an Opportunity Grab]. Short version: monsters get opportunity grab, so PCs do also. I know that's how it's typically done in PFS play.

Second, one can totally trip as an AoO, that's always allowed. It provokes an AoO unless one has Improved Grapple, which is why one does it from out the target's reach. I believe (someone please confirm this) that CMB in this case is calculated the same as would be an ordinary attack to hit, so BaB + INT. Even though WHW doesn't specifically say INT-to-CMB for trip, INT is the driver for the attack so it's also the driver for the trip CMB. Hit-and-grab is better than just tripping. If only the WHW could hit reliably.

All that said, the WHW archetype doesn't get you much. Any PC can accomplish much the same thing by not dumping STR and just carrying a reach weapon. The witch's poor BaB means that a 2/3 BaB class using STR with a longspear will eventually trip better than an INT-based WHW. Had they given the WHW archetype full unequivocal INT-to-hair-attack PLUS full BaB on any attack that uses the hair THEN the WHW would be competative.

Summary: Isaac, it's not as bad as you think, but it's still not very good. One can accomplish much the same thing (trip instead of grab) with the full Witch (hexes and all) plus decent STR & carry a longspear. WHW is still kinda cool.


Magda Luckbender wrote:

It's actually a free action, not a swift action, to grab. That leads to this FAQ [Is there such a thing as an Opportunity Grab]. Short version: monsters get opportunity grab, so PCs do also. I know that's how it's typically done in PFS play.

Second, one can totally trip as an AoO, that's always allowed. It provokes an AoO unless one has Improved Grapple, which is why one does it from out the target's reach. I believe (someone please confirm this) that CMB in this case is calculated the same as would be an ordinary attack to hit, so BaB + INT. Even though WHW doesn't specifically say INT-to-CMB for trip, INT is the driver for the attack so it's also the driver for the trip CMB. Hit-and-grab is better than just tripping. If only the WHW could hit reliably.

You said trip, I thought you were referring specifically to their "Trip (Ex): At 4th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to trip the creature as a swift action*."

And you are correct it would use the same calculation as the ordinary attack. However, the White Haired Witch doesn't get BAB + Int to attack. Specifically "At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier." Int modifier is added to damage, but not used for the attack roll. She can only sub her Str for Int on the grapple check made as part of the grab.

This is why just the Prehensile Hair Hex does most of what this archtype does better, because it's just Str = Int for the hair, so it applies to all this stuff and makes it more viable.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
Summary: Isaac, it's not as bad as you think, but it's still not very good. One can accomplish much the same thing (trip instead of grab) with the full Witch (hexes and all) plus decent STR & carry a longspear. WHW is still kinda cool.

Yeah. Literally the Prehensile Hair Hex which would let them Int to trip with their reach hair. Although it would only last x minutes per day.

And I made the White Haired Witch. I agree it's cool and I like it thematically. It just has very weird design choices. It would have been infinitely better had they just used the Str = Int from the Prehensile Hair Hex (which already existed) and built it up into the class focus with the grab, trip, extended reach etc.

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