Would giving kineticists an enhancement bonus be that bad?

[Trast-9000]

At the moment if you have kineticist on one hand and a Magus, Inquisitor, Skald, Paladin, Bloodrager, Monk, Druid etc, on the other. If the party was deprived of being able to magically enhance their attacks with items it would be a huge penalty to the latter classes but have no affect on the kineticist.

Now I believe the idea is that the kineticist is suppose to have this sort of feature baked into the class but does it equal out, almost all of the described classes have boosting methods baked into the class as well.

So the question is simple. If an item existed, similar to say the Amulet of mighty fists for monks that worked for the kineticist, would it be imbalanced or would it just help for a class that seems to have a dire lack of item support?

[Belafon]

It really depends on how you define the kineticist. You compare it to a bunch of (mainly melee) classes dealing damage with a natural or manufactured weapon. (Usually boosted by class features, but still attacking with a weapon.)

I'd define the kineticist as being closer to a blaster/ray-attacking caster. Compared to those, the kineticist has about the same amount of items that can boost attacks.

And overall, the Elemental Overflow class feature really does make it "even out." +1attack/+2damage every three levels, plus size increases to physical scores. Kineticists hit A LOT and do pretty good damage. Most importantly, they do it consistently for long periods of time. Adding an AoMF-type item would make them even better than they currently are.

[Trast-9000]

Belafon wrote:

It really depends on how you define the kineticist. You compare it to a bunch of (mainly melee) classes dealing damage with a natural or manufactured weapon. (Usually boosted by class features, but still attacking with a weapon.)

I'd define the kineticist as being closer to a blaster/ray-attacking caster. Compared to those, the kineticist has about the same amount of items that can boost attacks.

And overall, the Elemental Overflow class feature really does make it "even out." +1attack/+2damage every three levels, plus size increases to physical scores. Kineticists hit A LOT and do pretty good damage. Most importantly, they do it consistently for long periods of time. Adding an AoMF-type item would make them even better than they currently are.

Oh I definitely wouldn't compare them to ray casters who have vastly superior utility.

That's why I tried to compare them with other classes that have similar utility but also have a damage focus.

A lot of damage compared to a wizard casting a ray spell or the classes I listed?

[Meirril]

So wait till you've got 33k to blow on a weapon. Spend a feat on Firearms. Now pick up a +2 Conductive Reliable Musket. Boom! Now you hit on touch within 80', and you get +2 to hit, and you get to add the musket damage to your blast.

Also you can make physical blasts hit touch.

The way its worded you are basically paying for 2 blasts every time you use the conductive property. That probably means you need to pay twice for any special infusions you conductive.

Also if you get the money, make it a Shadowcraft weapon. For only an extra 12,500gp it doesn't need to be reloaded and if you want to you can shift it to be any 2 handed ranged weapon. While someone could disbelieve the bullet, it would still mean your blast hits for full damage.

[Claxon]

My experience was once kineticists got to about level 10 they were dealing as much, if not more, damage than any martial class.

It wasn't my character, so I don't know the exact build but I remember playing with my friend who had one and he put up ridiculous damage numbers.

So no, I'm not inclined to think they need any help.

[Belafon]

Trast-9000 wrote:

Belafon wrote:

It really depends on how you define the kineticist. You compare it to a bunch of (mainly melee) classes dealing damage with a natural or manufactured weapon. (Usually boosted by class features, but still attacking with a weapon.)

I'd define the kineticist as being closer to a blaster/ray-attacking caster. Compared to those, the kineticist has about the same amount of items that can boost attacks.

And overall, the Elemental Overflow class feature really does make it "even out." +1attack/+2damage every three levels, plus size increases to physical scores. Kineticists hit A LOT and do pretty good damage. Most importantly, they do it consistently for long periods of time. Adding an AoMF-type item would make them even better than they currently are.

Oh I definitely wouldn't compare them to ray casters who have vastly superior utility.

That's why I tried to compare them with other classes that have similar utility but also have a damage focus.

A lot of damage compared to a wizard casting a ray spell or the classes I listed?

Both.

One thing that makes it difficult to compare kineticists to other classes is that they make huge jumps in power at certain levels, while most other classes are more gradual. 5th, 7th, and especially 11th are all major upgrade levels for kineticists.

At 11th level, a kineticist can fling out one ranged touch attack a round doing at least 12d6+10 damage, with 3 additional points of infusions, FOREVER. Because their abilities mitigate all the burn they would take from that. If they are willing and able to take burn, they can do even more. That's with just the base class features.

So they easily beat any blaster caster (from a damage-dealing viewpoint, not from pure utility). It's pretty close to the damage a full-attacking melee PC is going to do as well, even with the items the melee PC has. Except for a few builds/situations, the kineticist beats almost any melee who only gets a single attack because he needed to move.

The big thing the kineticist has going for it is the "I can do this all day" factor. Compare a geared-up 11th level magus with a plain kineticist: If they both go all-out (kineticist empowers blasts, magus spellstrikes/spell combat), the kineticist will probably do more damage but will run out of burn well before the magus runs out of spells. But when the magus does run out of spells the kineticist is still humming along doing that same 12d6+10 damage a round. Well more than the magus can do without spells.

[PossibleCabbage]

Where an enhancement bonus would come in really handy was for melee kineticists who want to hit on iterative attacks with kinetic blade/whip. Since a lot of kineticists snag a touch attack sooner or later, I think this would need testing.

[Trast-9000]

Belafon wrote:

Trast-9000 wrote:

Belafon wrote:

It really depends on how you define the kineticist. You compare it to a bunch of (mainly melee) classes dealing damage with a natural or manufactured weapon. (Usually boosted by class features, but still attacking with a weapon.)

I'd define the kineticist as being closer to a blaster/ray-attacking caster. Compared to those, the kineticist has about the same amount of items that can boost attacks.

And overall, the Elemental Overflow class feature really does make it "even out." +1attack/+2damage every three levels, plus size increases to physical scores. Kineticists hit A LOT and do pretty good damage. Most importantly, they do it consistently for long periods of time. Adding an AoMF-type item would make them even better than they currently are.

Oh I definitely wouldn't compare them to ray casters who have vastly superior utility.

That's why I tried to compare them with other classes that have similar utility but also have a damage focus.

A lot of damage compared to a wizard casting a ray spell or the classes I listed?

Both.

One thing that makes it difficult to compare kineticists to other classes is that they make huge jumps in power at certain levels, while most other classes are more gradual. 5th, 7th, and especially 11th are all major upgrade levels for kineticists.

At 11th level, a kineticist can fling out one ranged touch attack a round doing at least 12d6+10 damage, with 3 additional points of infusions, FOREVER. Because their abilities mitigate all the burn they would take from that. If they are willing and able to take burn, they can do even more. That's with just the base class features.

So they easily beat any blaster caster (from a damage-dealing viewpoint, not from pure utility). It's pretty close to the damage a full-attacking melee PC is going to do as well, even with the items the melee PC has. Except for a few builds/situations, the kineticist beats almost any melee who only gets a single attack...

The 5th and 11th boost is the classes attempt to mimic attack progression. 7th level is not a major boost, permanently weakening yourself for the day to gain extra damage is counter-intuitive.

I said I wasn't comparing them with casters, casters have utility, there primary purpose is not damage but the sad thing is they do not actually beat casters made to be blasters. Even without using the dual archetype they can take safe options that at 11th level let them do 12d6 + 20 damage, that's with an archetype, feat and blood thing and surely other feats to enhance it.

But then casters also have METAMAGIC RODS, items, for 9'000 they slotlessly increase the damage they deal by 50%.

Then evem further casters have the ability to use the dazzing feat which far surpasses any of the riders kineticists can attach to a blast.

It also makes no sense for you to compare the kineticists single blast with any melee class when the blast requires a full around and is should be compared to other ranged attackers

[pad300]

Meirril wrote:

So wait till you've got 33k to blow on a weapon. Spend a feat on Firearms. Now pick up a +2 Conductive Reliable Musket. Boom! Now you hit on touch within 80', and you get +2 to hit, and you get to add the musket damage to your blast.

Also you can make physical blasts hit touch.

The way its worded you are basically paying for 2 blasts every time you use the conductive property. That probably means you need to pay twice for any special infusions you conductive.

Also if you get the money, make it a Shadowcraft weapon. For only an extra 12,500gp it doesn't need to be reloaded and if you want to you can shift it to be any 2 handed ranged weapon. While someone could disbelieve the bullet, it would still mean your blast hits for full damage.

A flask thrower is a non-firearm alternative for this strategy (especially for the shadowcraft weapon version, that makes it's own ammunition). I am in not sure why Meirril wants the weapon to be a +2 though - only a +1 is needed to add weapon properties, and a shadowcraft weapon may (DM's ruling) not need to be a +1 weapon at all (see the examples of advanced shadowcraft weapons - lashing and enervative...) .

Another interesting weapon for this strategy is the poison sand tube; it has an effect in a 15 ft cone, which could be a useful area effect, and requires no to-hit roll at all.

It's probably too much of an investment, but EWP Net, and Net Adept feet makes the aforementioned shadowcraft Musket/Flask Thrower for a touch range melee attack tool, that entangles as well as delivering damage...

Finally, of course, a Greater Magic Weapon spell would apply to all of these weapons...

[PossibleCabbage]

Trast-9000 wrote:

7th level is not a major boost, permanently weakening yourself for the day to gain extra damage is counter-intuitive.

7th level is when you get a 2nd element. If you're thinking of the size bonus from elemental overflow at 6th, the extra burn past the 2 you need to top off the elemental overflow bonus is cancelled out by the +2 to Con you get from that, so for the cost of "you can't get another size bonus" you get +2 dex (or str for kinetic knights) and a 15% chance to ignore crits.

I figure the 5 burn elemental overflow isn't worth it until level 12, when you're taking one extra burn for +4 Con (which puts you ahead) plus other stuff. For the 7 burn overflow at level 17 you're spending 2 extra burn for +6 Con (which puts you ahead) plus other stuff.

But the key to making Elemental Overflow work is to make that burn not wasted. It's best to put it towards a good defense (force ward, flesh of stone, or shroud of water are good choices), or wild talents with all day effects (kinetic form, shimmering mirage, etc.) If you're taking that burn and getting nothing, then it is a bad choice.

So for example for an aether kineticist, the elemental overflow breakpoints are

3rd: spend 3 HP to increase your temp HP pool from 3 to 4, it regenerates at 1/minute, you get +1 to hit and +2 to damage
4th: spend 4 HP to increase your temp HP pool from 4 to 6, it regenerates at 2/minute, +1/+2 to hit/damage
5th Spend 5 HP to increase your temp HP pool from 5 to 7, it regenerates at 2/minute, +1/+2 to hit/damage
6th Spend 18 HP to increase your temp HP pool from 6 to 15, it regenerates at 3/minute, you gain 6 HP, +3/+5 to hit/damage.
etc.

Since that 15 HP pool will refill several times in the course of a day (and can protect you from poison and other effects that require you to take damage), it's worth more than the net -12 hp your burn gives you.

[Belafon]

Trast-9000 wrote:

The 5th and 11th boost is the classes attempt to mimic attack progression. 7th level is not a major boost, permanently weakening yourself for the day to gain extra damage is counter-intuitive.

7th is when you get Expanded Element (composite blasts). I'm not sure what you mean by "permanently weakening yourself for the day." Elemental Overflow?

Quote:

I said I wasn't comparing them with casters, casters have utility, there primary purpose is not damage but the sad thing is they do not actually beat casters made to be blasters. Even without using the dual archetype they can take safe options that at 11th level let them do 12d6 + 20 damage, that's with an archetype, feat and blood thing and surely other feats to enhance it.

If you don't want to compare them to casters, that's fine. My original point stands that a non-archetyped, plain old kineticist is better than a blaster caster. Mainly because that 12d6+10 (or more) the kineticist puts out is ALL DAY LONG. Not limited by spell slots.

Quote:

But then casters also have METAMAGIC RODS, items, for 9'000 they slotlessly increase the damage they deal by 50%.

For one point of burn the kineticist increases the damage done by 50%. They also have options for maximize and quicken.

Quote:

Then evem further casters have the ability to use the dazzing feat which far surpasses any of the riders kineticists can attach to a blast.

That's a matter of opinion. In this case, I happen to agree with that opinion :) (Although the three spell level bump does hurt.)

Quote:

It also makes no sense for you to compare the kineticists single blast with any melee class when the blast requires a full around and is should be compared to other ranged attackers

But the first post of the thread compared them to "Magus, Inquisitor, Skald, Paladin, Bloodrager, Monk, Druid..."

And the blast doesn't require a full round, it's just usually better to gather power and use a composite blast than take burn.

Anyway, let's compare the 11th level kineticist to, oh, an 11th level archer ranger.

Spoiler:

The ranger is going to be Rapid-, Deadly-, Many-, Clustered-shotting. With a BAB of 11. So that works out to 4 attacks a round (the first of which does damage twice). +6 damage from Deadly, +3 or so from the weapon, and +4 or so from strength. So that's 5d8+70 damage if every attack hits. Average is 92.5. Not too shabby. That compares to the 52 or so damage from the kineticist. The difference being that the kineticist is targeting touch and the ranger is making two iteratives, so the ranger is much more likely to miss with an attack or two.

If the kineticist switches from an energy blast to a physical blast, she's no longer targeting touch but is now doing about 23 points more of damage a round, so 85 total. Really close to what the ranger does if she hits every time. The kineticist is slightly less likely to hit with her one attack than the ranger is with his first. (Elemental Overflow makes up for the 3/4 BAB, but our hypothetical ranger has a +3 bow.)

And all that is assuming the kineticist is gathering power and isn't accepting burn. (So no empower or anything.) We're also ignoring infusions, which could be attempting anything from knocking the target over to staggering it.

The ranger does more damage, but only if all the shots hit and not too terribly much.

So to answer the original question, I do think that items that enhance the kineticist's attack and damage rolls would be unbalancing. Right now it's in the sweet spot where she misses just often enough to not be an "auto damage roll."

[Trast-9000]

Belafon wrote:

Trast-9000 wrote:

The 5th and 11th boost is the classes attempt to mimic attack progression. 7th level is not a major boost, permanently weakening yourself for the day to gain extra damage is counter-intuitive.

7th is when you get Expanded Element (composite blasts). I'm not sure what you mean by "permanently weakening yourself for the day." Elemental Overflow?

Quote:

I said I wasn't comparing them with casters, casters have utility, there primary purpose is not damage but the sad thing is they do not actually beat casters made to be blasters. Even without using the dual archetype they can take safe options that at 11th level let them do 12d6 + 20 damage, that's with an archetype, feat and blood thing and surely other feats to enhance it.

If you don't want to compare them to casters, that's fine. My original point stands that a non-archetyped, plain old kineticist is better than a blaster caster. Mainly because that 12d6+10 (or more) the kineticist puts out is ALL DAY LONG. Not limited by spell slots.

Quote:

But then casters also have METAMAGIC RODS, items, for 9'000 they slotlessly increase the damage they deal by 50%.

For one point of burn the kineticist increases the damage done by 50%. They also have options for maximize and quicken.

Quote:

Then evem further casters have the ability to use the dazzing feat which far surpasses any of the riders kineticists can attach to a blast.

That's a matter of opinion. In this case, I happen to agree with that opinion :) (Although the three spell level bump does hurt.)

Quote:

It also makes no sense for you to compare the kineticists single blast with any melee class when the blast requires a full around and is should be compared to other ranged attackers

But the first post of the thread compared them to "Magus, Inquisitor, Skald, Paladin, Bloodrager, Monk, Druid..."

And the blast doesn't require a full round, it's just usually better to gather power and use a composite blast than take burn....

1.This should have been obvious, using composite at 7th requires burn which weakens you for the day.

2. A point that means nothing, there was no reason to compare them with casters other than false comparisons and as I pointed out, still does better damage, if we where to compare optimised, it would be no contest, the blaster sorcerer/wizard has options. I mean if you go the battering blast build it breaks the scaling formula with the intense feat

3. Awful for the same reason as in step 1, it brings the class closer to the grave, if they had some magical item equivalent it would be the same and I wouldn't have an issue. It also far easier for a blaster to quicken.

4. I question your judgement if you think that's a matter of opinion. The dazzing metamagic is infamously potent. Kineticist blast riders tend to be extremely weak, as if paizo fears giving them any good save or suck effects. I mean the best is probably being blind for a round.

5. Your choice of comparison is a ranger without factoring in spells or favored enemy in effect, that's barely above comparing it with the warrior npc class or other magic items and affects that exist for weapon users.

Surely you must realise the issue if you need to use awful choices to make it look good.

[JiCi]

What would have been nice is if they would have given gauntlets that allow kineticists to 1) enhance them as melee and ranged weapons and 2) apply those enhancements to blasts.

I feel like this class keeps getting the short end of the stick, especially when compared to spellcasters. It's technically supposed to be the equivalent of D&D's Warlock. Let's face it: Eldritch Blast = Kinetic Blast.

They can't use Metamagic Rods or even Metamagic Feats, they can channel their blast through weapons, the Conductive enhancement might not work for kinetic blasts since the kineticist doesn't "expend" uses; no extra rule was added, and the heavily reliance on touch attacks make weapons rather useless.

[PossibleCabbage]

JiCi wrote:

They can't use Metamagic Rods or even Metamagic Feats.

Well, Expanded Metakinesis gets you access to Disruptive, Ectoplasmic, Furious, Merciful, and Piercing. It's just those aren't the ones people want (people want Dazing).

[Belafon]

So Trast, I guess you aren't actually asking "would giving kineticists items that boost their blast be imbalanced?" You've already decided that kineticists need items.

I realize now I'm not going to convince you. If you are the GM and want to add enhancement items for kineticists in the game, go for it! Have fun, and make sure the players have some equally challenging NPCs to fight!

Quote:

Surely you must realise the issue if you need to use awful choices to make it look good.

I have to take issue with this characterization. I just took a quick typical archer build for comparison. Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim. You are correct. I didn't assume Favored Enemy bonuses. I didn't assume the archer was using gravity bow. I didn't assume heroism. But I also compared it against a kineticist with absolutely nothing, not even using Metakinesis, just the base class features.

Depending on the situation some classes will outdamage it. But the kineticist can do a lot of damage, and they never run out of blast.

And there's a lot more than just "max damage" to consider. We haven't even touched on survivability or utility of the kineticist, which play strongly into overall balance.

[JiCi]

Belafon wrote:

Depending on the situation some classes will outdamage it. But the kineticist can do a lot of damage, and they never run out of blast.

And there's a lot more than just "max damage" to consider. We haven't even touched on survivability or utility of the kineticist, which play strongly into overall balance.

I've tried to use those same arguments in a previous topic... I still couldn't convince that kineticists were better blasters than spellcasters...

[Firebug]

Meirril wrote:

Also you can make physical blasts hit touch.

Conductive doesn't work with Physical Blasts. Conductive requires the spell-like/supernatural ability to be a touch attack (of the appropriate type, melee or ranged).

Conductive Weapon wrote:

A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as...). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, which suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, she may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, ...

A given character can use this weapon special ability only once per round (even if she has several conductive weapons), and the power works only with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).

pad300 wrote:

Another interesting weapon for this strategy is the poison sand tube; it has an effect in a 15 ft cone, which could be a useful area effect, and requires no to-hit roll at all.

Since the Poisoned Sand Tube is a cone effect, you cannot make a successful attack of the appropriate type (melee or ranged) with the Poison Sand Tube, and it will not trigger Conductive.

[Egil Firehair]

Claxon wrote:

My experience was once kineticists got to about level 10 they were dealing as much, if not more, damage than any martial class.

It wasn't my character, so I don't know the exact build but I remember playing with my friend who had one and he put up ridiculous damage numbers.

So no, I'm not inclined to think they need any help.

While playing Mummy's Mask with my level 13/14 Pyrokineticist, he was out-damaging everyone else at the table. Including the Fighter 8/Slayer 6 archer build. He also out-damaged most of the characters he played with in levels 1-11 of Emerald Spire. (It's hard to compare him to the pair of Swashmonklers... they were built to have huge synergy with each other. I am not familiar with the build, but they both have Paired Opportunist, Broken Wing Gambit, etc. They end up boosting each others AC and saves by about 7, as well as producing 3-5 AoOs for each other most combat rounds. The Pyro was clearly ahead of them until around level 9, but I think they've been pulling ahead now.)

The Kineticist doesn't need help laying out damage; his weak points are SR and Immunity to his chosen element. At level 14 the Pyro has this pretty well covered, but from around 7 to 12 it was a problem to varying degrees.

[Meirril]

pad300 wrote:

Meirril wrote:

So wait till you've got 33k to blow on a weapon. Spend a feat on Firearms. Now pick up a +2 Conductive Reliable Musket. Boom! Now you hit on touch within 80', and you get +2 to hit, and you get to add the musket damage to your blast.

Also you can make physical blasts hit touch.

The way its worded you are basically paying for 2 blasts every time you use the conductive property. That probably means you need to pay twice for any special infusions you conductive.

Also if you get the money, make it a Shadowcraft weapon. For only an extra 12,500gp it doesn't need to be reloaded and if you want to you can shift it to be any 2 handed ranged weapon. While someone could disbelieve the bullet, it would still mean your blast hits for full damage.

A flask thrower is a non-firearm alternative for this strategy (especially for the shadowcraft weapon version, that makes it's own ammunition). I am in not sure why Meirril wants the weapon to be a +2 though - only a +1 is needed to add weapon properties, and a shadowcraft weapon may (DM's ruling) not need to be a +1 weapon at all (see the examples of advanced shadowcraft weapons - lashing and enervative...) .

I suggested saving up for a +2 because I don't think a +1 weapon is worth the cost. While you could cast Greater Magic Weapon to boost the +1, that isn't worth the effort either. The Kinetisist can't cast it, so they would need to acquire a rather expensive disposable magic item to boost the +1 weapon to an acceptable level. You're better off saving the gold for a permanent solution.

Other casters could use their time to boost the Kinetisists weapon...but that isn't very efficient. The Kinetisist could get a cohort to do this. That would save on spell resources and gold. I'm just not convinced that a cohort that is two levels behind the party casting Greater Magic Weapon is going to be all that significant. All in all, just delaying until you can afford a bonus that is significant sounds better to me.

Also when you're talking the difference between a +4 weapon and a +5 weapon a Shadowcraft weapon cost of 12,500gp doesn't sound bad vs a Shadowshooting cost of +1. When you're talking from +3 to +4 that extra +1 is cheaper, but if you intend to keep raising the bonus the flat 12,500gp is cheaper in the long run.

Oh, and instead of using a Musket constantly, you could shape it into a Culverin when its convenient.

[Trast-9000]

Belafon wrote:

So Trast, I guess you aren't actually asking "would giving kineticists items that boost their blast be imbalanced?" You've already decided that kineticists need items.

You compared the damaging abilities of a kineticist with full casters and what was essentially the warrior npc class. So do not try to spin this.

You're even aware that you used a class without modifiers, what was the point? you are aware that is a terrible representation of any character in combat.

[Trast-9000]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

JiCi wrote:

They can't use Metamagic Rods or even Metamagic Feats.

Well, Expanded Metakinesis gets you access to Disruptive, Ectoplasmic, Furious, Merciful, and Piercing. It's just those aren't the ones people want (people want Dazing).

But those again still depend on resources, in this case your characters health.

It is not directly comparing the power of the metamagic feats but that the caster has metamagic rods, essentially money for resources, the kineticist does not have this option.

Would being able to pay for an extra +3 to hit and damage at level 11 break the kineticist? That's the important question.

[Claxon]

Trast-9000 wrote:

Would being able to pay for an extra +3 to hit and damage at level 11 break the kineticist? That's the important question.

Probably yes.

[PossibleCabbage]

Trast-9000 wrote:

But those again still depend on resources, in this case your characters health.

Well, the standard way one would use the 1 burn metakineses is by spending a move action to gather power (this is how people put empower on their blasts.)

If you want empowered and disruptive on the same blast you have to take burn, spend a whole round gathering power, or wait until you get supercharge, though.

[Egil Firehair]

Eh, +3 to hit and damage isn't a big deal to my previously mentioned Pyromancer. He does 6d6+16 damage, thanks to Elemental Overflow & Deadly Aim. (Or did, at 11th level.) The +3 damage isn't a big deal.

The +3 to hit isn't a big deal either, as Fire is Ranged Touch. It would become a much larger deal for most other elemental types, as they are _not_ touch. So no, don't do it.

VS metamagic rods/feats: empower, maximize & extended range(s) are already baked into the class, so skip those too. Note that there was a thread on Kineticists during the playtest that ran hundreds of posts, so the devs (principly John Compton) got a lot of feedback. So, generally speaking, the class does not need to be tweaked.

You game may vary. If the campaign is featuring enemies with elemental immunities & SR that affect the Kineticist more heavily than other players & it happens a lot, than maybe do something.

Note: by level 11, Gather Power has been bumped to 2 Burn for a move action, so empower, maximize or composite blast are all 'free' if you don't have to move. The 6d6+16 blast when maximized is 36+16=52. And the composite blast is 12d6+16=58 average. The Kinetic Blade is considerably weaker, as you don't get elemental overflow damage adds, but can be used iteratively in melee, including Haste. So the potential is there for more damage, plus no AoO if you are being crowded by your foes.

[PossibleCabbage]

Egil Firehair wrote:

Note: by level 11, Gather Power has been bumped to 2 Burn for a move action, so empower, maximize or composite blast are all 'free' if you don't have to move.

Note that at level 7 Mobile Gathering is available so you can gather power and move at half speed and do all this.

[Firebug]

Egil Firehair wrote:

Eh, +3 to hit and damage isn't a big deal to my previously mentioned Pyromancer. He does 6d6+16 damage, thanks to Elemental Overflow & Deadly Aim. (Or did, at 11th level.) The +3 damage isn't a big deal.

Deadly Aim does not apply to Touch Attacks (except Firearm attacks, and that is specific to firearms).

[Egil Firehair]

You are correct, Deadly Aim is there for the +1 Bane - Outsiders (Evil) Light Crossbow. As a Pyromancer, Egil has Fire's Fury, which gives extra damage for Elemental Overflow when using blasts with a 'fire' component & I confused the math.

The 6d6+16 should have been 6d6+13. Still not worrying about +3 damage too much. Note that an Earth blast (frex), not being ranged touch, would be 6d6+16.

[Trast-9000]

Egil Firehair wrote:

VS metamagic rods/feats: empower, maximize & extended range(s) are already baked into the class, so skip those too. Note that there was a thread on Kineticists during the playtest that ran hundreds of posts, so the devs (principly John Compton) got a lot of feedback. So, generally speaking, the class does not need to be tweaked.

That is no more the equivalent of a metamagic rod than a metamagic feat, unlike the rod, the feat and metamagic are not a boost, they require you pay the difference in either burn or higher level spell slots.

But it seems there is a rod equivalent, a really poorly designed one. It maximises blasts but costs the same as a greater maximise rod. I understand why they did this but it borders on useless, something that almost no game will reach high enough level to afford and even if they did they are unlikely to buy this.

A better way of mimicking it would have been to have had rods that are restricted based on the amount of infusions and such being applied to the blast.

[Egil Firehair]

Quote:

But it seems there is a rod equivalent, a really poorly designed one.

Please be more explicit: what equivalent? from what source?