Can Brawlers become Invested Regents?

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

The Invested Regent is a Monk Archetype (suitable for both traditional and Unchained Monks) that replaces only the class's bonus feats (and even that is technically optional for all but the 1st).

Brawlers get bonus feats just as Monks (and Fighters) do, albeit more of them, and not always at the same levels (2-5-8-11-14-17-20 vs the Monk's 1-2-6-10-14-18).

Given that "Hybrid" classes CAN assume Archetypes from their "parent" classes provided the Archetype replaces only class features that the "Hybrid" class still has, does this combination work?

For what it's worth, I am interested in this for Organized Play.

[Meirril]

First thing, what makes you believe a Hybrid Class can assume an Archetype from a different class? Hybrid classes only count as the parent class for any features that explicitly say they are counted the same. If features with the same name don't stack between hybrid and their parent classes, why should they count the same for an archetype? Also there is nothing in the rules for either Hybrid Classes or Class Archetype rules that would indicate that a hybrid class can take an archetype from a parent class.

And even if there was such language, the rules on Archetype stacking would explicitly prohibit this particular selection because the class features must be replaced at the stated level, and since they aren't available at the correct level it is invalid.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

Meirril wrote:

First thing, what makes you believe a Hybrid Class can assume an Archetype from a different class?

*sigh* I'm POSITIVE I had reason to think that was the case. Unfortunately, I can't find print to back that up at the moment...although I have discussed similar things in other threads that made that sound like exactly the case.

[willuwontu]

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Meirril wrote:

First thing, what makes you believe a Hybrid Class can assume an Archetype from a different class?

*sigh* I'm POSITIVE I had reason to think that was the case. Unfortunately, I can't find print to back that up at the moment...although I have discussed similar things in other threads that made that sound like exactly the case.

I believe you were thinking of the unofficial stance that alternate classes are just archetypes

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

willuwontu wrote:

I believe you were thinking of the unofficial stance that alternate classes are just archetypes

Well, no, that wasn't the thought driving me, I know that much.

[LordKailas]

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Given that "Hybrid" classes CAN assume Archetypes from their "parent" classes provided the Archetype replaces only class features that the "Hybrid" class still has, does this combination work?

Where is this stated?

It's been my understanding that classes can only take archetypes that are for the specific class. What you're suggesting is that you can take any archetype as any class so long as you have all of the class features that archetype modifies.

This is the only statement I was able to find about "parent classes" which doesn't even mention archetypes.

hybrid classes wrote:

Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don’t stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline). The new classes presented here are all hybrids of two existing core or base classes.

Edit: Even if you are correct, the first ability of Invested Regent replaces the bonus feat gained at 1st level. Brawlers don't get a bonus feat at first level so it doesn't seem like they would be eligible to take the archetype. Especially when you consider that monk bonus feats aren't even the same as brawler bonus feats. In the same way that sorcerer bonus feats aren't the same as fighter bonus feats.

[Sam Phelan]

Merged duplicate threads. Deleted one duplicate thread. I tried to keep as much information that was contributed without duplicating contributions across threads.

[blahpers]

In conclusion: Sure, if they take monk levels. : )

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

blahpers wrote:

In conclusion: Sure, if they take monk levels. : )

Meaning perhaps...that if one were to start off with 2 levels as an Invested Regent Monk, then the remaining levels all in Brawler...the subsequent Brawler bonus feats could be exchanged as desired for Vested Powers?

Failing that: Can Unchained Monks be the Martial Artist Archetype?

I'm hoping for ways to play an Invested Regent while minimizing, if not eliminating, Ki and the need for Wisdom, and hopefully loosening/alternating alignment restrictions. It would also be nice if there were some way to shift from an "Oriental" fighting style to one more "Occidental", "Classical Antiquarian", "Middle Eastern", "Subcontinental", or even "Mesoamerican".

[willuwontu]

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Meaning perhaps...that if one were to start off with 2 levels as an Invested Regent Monk, then the remaining levels all in Brawler...the subsequent Brawler bonus feats could be exchanged as desired for Vested Powers?

No, as in you could be a monk instead.

Quote:

Failing that: Can Unchained Monks be the Martial Artist Archetype?

No.

[Nyerkh]

Nope and nope.
Martial artists still need Wisdom, too. As do pretty much all monks - it's a big part of what makes them not-Brawlers.
Short of replacing it with Charisma, there aren't many good ways to get rid of Wisdom entirely. Not sure any work with Regent either.

Although, I wouldn't let myself be too tied down by words.
We got varisian monks, hobgoblin monks, at least two chelish monks, duergar monks, qadiran monks, druidic monks ... In a world like Golarion, it's only "oriental" if you say it is.
The mechanic might called "ki", but feel free to rename it if that helps.

Sin Monks trade off ki entirely ? Bit of weird one, though. Still Wis reliant, too.

[Falkyron]

Archetypes don't apply to hybrid classes as they're different classes. Some classes were unofficially considered to be sort of like archetypes, such as the ninja or antipaladin, but that doesn't seem relevant. Since they've made it so you can have levels in both the parent classes and the hybrid classes that whole ship has sailed.

If you still couldn't be both a brawler and a monk I'd maybe have seen some justification in allowing it, but the 'parent classes' are just listed for fluff now.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

Nyerkh wrote:

Nope and nope.

Martial artists still need Wisdom, too. As do pretty much all monks - it's a big part of what makes them not-Brawlers.
Short of replacing it with Charisma, there aren't many good ways to get rid of Wisdom entirely. Not sure any work with Regent either.

I just found the Scaled Fist, which is compatible with Unchained Monks AND does precisely this!

The question is, does the fact that it "modifies bonus feats" the way it does necessarily make it incompatible with the Invested Regent?

[Meirril]

Since Scaled Fist only adds more choices, it doesn't interfere with other archetypes that need you to give them up. The same for Invested Regent. You aren't required to pick up a Vestment, you could go with the standard bonus feat each level so its available to pay for other archetypes that require them.

Since there is no overlap over class features you give up, you can take both. Please note that the Charisma bonus for Scaled Fist is used for a lot of things, but not for Wis save. You might want to cover for that.

[willuwontu]

FAQ wrote:

Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?

In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.

They don't stack.