With all due respect, I don't think it makes a huge impact on the game to simply construct a warrior to be able to use the big golden woobie weapon in a campaign that is designed to give said weapon to PC's.
The PC's are going to stumble upon the weapon in the campaign, and it's not even foreshadowed in the books. There's no real buildup, you just find it and activate it. I know because I ran the AP all the way through. And activating it is something you'd do anyway, because of the story.
|
It sounds like the OP has decided. That said, it pains me to see a melee character (who intends to oppose giants, no less!) choose a two handed weapon that lacks reach. Like, why? In most every conceivable combat situation any two-handed reach weapon is superior.
It's fine to deliberately choose an inferior option based on style and appearance, but definitely know that's what you are doing.
Once the giants get tall enough, the reach option isn't going to help anyways. You can only suffer for movement once.
If you work at it, you can beat giants at reach but it will take specific options. Like a storm giant has 15 feet of reach, but an aberrant bloodrager under longarm and enlarge person threatens up to 30' away and a Kinetic Whip on a character with an active Kinetic form threatens at 20' (30' once you hit level 16).
It sounds like the OP has decided. That said, it pains me to see a melee character (who intends to oppose giants, no less!) choose a two handed weapon that lacks reach. Like, why? In most every conceivable combat situation any two-handed reach weapon is superior.
It's fine to deliberately choose an inferior option based on style and appearance, but definitely know that's what you are doing.
It's simple. That is what is inside the Giantslayer campaign. If you want to blame anyone for a bad weapon choice, blame the authors of the AP.
|
|
The OP isn't either of those. So as its moot as far as this topic goes.Once the giants get tall enough, the reach option isn't going to help anyways. You can only suffer for movement once.If you work at it, you can beat giants at reach but it will take specific options. Like a storm giant has 15 feet of reach, but an aberrant bloodrager under longarm and enlarge person threatens up to 30' away and a Kinetic Whip on a character with an active Kinetic form threatens at 20' (30' once you hit level 16).
In order of availability:
Reach weapons can be used by anyone: 10ft reach.Enlarge Person can be used by anyone: 15 ft reach.
Lashing Shadowcraft Weapons can be used by anyone with enough money: 20ft reach.
Longarm can be used by anyone with enough ranks in UMD: 25ft reach.
Lunge can be used by anyone with +6 BAB and a feat to spare: 30ft reach.
Honestly, it's not that difficult to outreach giants with any character.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fighters can use reach weapons.
Fighters can drink potions of Enlarge Person.
Fighters can spend money on Shadowcraft weapons (since weapons and armors are the main costs for Fighters).
Fighters can put ranks in UMD, take a trait that makes it a class skill and buy a Wand Key Ring and a wand of Longarm.
Fighters can take Lunge.
So yeah, I am helping the OP by telling them how Fighters can overcome one of the giants' main strengths: reach. How is your "count of points made" actually helping the OP?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, I mean, if the OP has decided on a character the point of the thread carrying on, if there is one, is to leave thoughts for someone who finds this thread wondering what they should play in Giantslayer.
|
|
How is reminding people that he isn't playing a blood rager or kinectisist helping? Oh I dont know. Maybe by reminding people he is playing a fighter.
But yeah, for sure all the points are going into UMD as well as all his cash. Solid plan that should totally pay off in 10 levels. I'm sure the OP will keep it in mind.
Thanks for helping
How are 3750gp for a wand, that might spare you from a AoO every time you attack, and a magical item, "all his cash"?
How are 5 ranks in UMD "all the points"?
How is investing in UMD, universally known as one of the most powerful skills in the game, second in utility only to Perception, a obviously bad idea?
How is your sarcasm helping the OP and/or any other person coming on this thread to get Advice on how to deal with giants (and, by extension, with high reach)?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Like if we're talking about "what melee-based character is good at fighting giants" someone who is really, really good at reach games is a very strong choice. Being able to full attack giants, who need to provoke an AoO in order to hit you once is a strong choice. Giants are good at 2 things: HP sponges and "damage when they hit", so mostly your objective is to not get hit by them.
Now getting more than 20' of reach does require you to pick some specific things, but there are nonetheless a bunch of ways to do this.
I dunno guys. Use Magic Device generally isn't useful until you are in the double digit levels, since the DC's are so very high you can't count on making the rolls until then. Generally, the only people who CAN pull it off are those that have really high Charisma. Most warrior types don't. The only one that does come to mind is a Paladin.
I dunno, I wouldn't worry about reach etc. I find just using a character trait to grab Acrobatics as a class skill, then using it to get in close to monsters with reach works like a charm. Much less complicated and less expensive overall than what you guys have been pushing. To that end, a straight up Fighter works well, since you get to reduce the armor check penalty as you level up. Also mithril armor and the Armor Expert character trait.
If you are worried about AC, just have a friendly Wizard craft some magic items for you. It's not all that hard.
Acrobatics DCs to avoid AoOs are harder than UMD DCs to activate wands. By quite a bit actually - hill giants start at CMD 24, other giants go up rapidly from there, and a wand is a flat DC 20. Minimising the penalty from armor to acrobatics is helpful but it only stops it getting even harder relatively speaking. UMD has nothing analagous to an armor check penalty.
Potions of enlarge person are dirt cheap and require no skill at all to use of course.
|
|
Acrobatics DCs to avoid AoOs are harder than UMD DCs to activate wands. By quite a bit actually - hill giants start at CMD 24, other giants go up rapidly from there, and a wand is a flat DC 20. Minimising the penalty from armor to acrobatics is helpful but it only stops it getting even harder relatively speaking. UMD has nothing analagous to an armor check penalty.
Potions of enlarge person are dirt cheap and require no skill at all to use of course.
Not to mention that a Wand Key Ring is relatively cheap (only 3k) and halves the DC to activate a specific wand. Throw in a trait that adds +1 to UMD and makes it a class skill, a single rank in UMD and you start from +15 on the check vs DC 20.
Acrobatics DCs to avoid AoOs are harder than UMD DCs to activate wands. By quite a bit actually -
Potions of enlarge person are dirt cheap and require no skill at all to use of course.
Nope. You forget that most warrior types have a high BAB, dexterity, etc. Most warrior types do not have a high Charisma, meaning UMD is much harder for them.
BAB is not relevant to skills (unless you get owl style or versatile training, neither of which gets greater than maxing the skill), and almost none have a dex mod 10 points higher than their cha mod - the difference between the CMD of a stone giant and the DC of activating a wand.
I mean, the problem I see with acrobatics versus reach as a means to melee giants is that using one's move action to close and avoiding AoOs with acrobatics leaves you open to full attacks on the giant's turn. Whereas sitting more than 5' outside of their reach, they have to spend a move action (and probably provoke) in order to attack you once.
I do not think you want to eat a lot of full attacks from giants.
I mean, Paizo usually does not give giants reach weapons (but if your GM changes it up so they do have them, getting in the hole of the donut is a good idea, but otherwise you're dealing with 10' of reach until you start getting in the double digit levels.
Uhm, no offense, but I ran Giantslayer. The PC's were mowing them down once they got their AC up and various enchantments on their MELEE weapons.
I couldn't hit them for love nor money. I tried. And what little got through was usually healed up by the Cleric and Bard. My only hope was a critical hit, and that doesn't come around all that often with NPC's.
BAB is not relevant to skills (unless you get owl style or versatile training, neither of which gets greater than maxing the skill), and almost none have a dex mod 10 points higher than their cha mod - the difference between the CMD of a stone giant and the DC of activating a wand.
It is to CMB and the like. Dexterity tends to kick in to help with Acrobatics, you know. It also helps with CMD.
Point is, UMD is no solution when your Charisma sucks and you don't have class access naturally, which most classes don't. Warriors tend to have terrible Charisma in the first place, and are far more likely to have a high Strength or Dexterity instead, so wouldn't it make more sense to go with that instead of trying to pull off something that requires you to buy a charged item and blow a standard action when you can just Acrobatics your way in past a monster's reach induced attacks of opportunity and just pound the bejeezus out of said giant?
I feel like with UMD since we're only trying to hit a DC 20 here to use a single wand (of longarm) it's not that hard to do:
Choose a trait that gives UMD as a class skill (Dangerously Curious or the Artifact Hunter trait from the Giantslayer player's guide) which also gives you a +1, then put a single rank into it for a +4, then buy a wand key ring keyed to a wand of longarm (costs 3000 gp, cheap at higher levels) and then you are at +15 trying to hit a DC of 20 even if your Charisma is 10. 4 skill ranks gets you to a 95% chance of success (and is also half of the prerequisite for the "teleportation mastery" feat, in case you want your fighter to cast dimension door ever).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
BAB is not relevant to skills (unless you get owl style or versatile training, neither of which gets greater than maxing the skill), and almost none have a dex mod 10 points higher than their cha mod - the difference between the CMD of a stone giant and the DC of activating a wand.It is to CMB and the like. Dexterity tends to kick in to help with Acrobatics, you know. It also helps with CMD.
Point is, UMD is no solution when your Charisma sucks and you don't have class access naturally, which most classes don't. Warriors tend to have terrible Charisma in the first place, and are far more likely to have a high Strength or Dexterity instead, so wouldn't it make more sense to go with that instead of trying to pull off something that requires you to buy a charged item and blow a standard action when you can just Acrobatics your way in past a monster's reach induced attacks of opportunity and just pound the bejeezus out of said giant?
CMB doesn't help when you're trying to get past a giant's reach. Nor does your CMD unless the giant is trying to trip you or something. What matters is your acrobatics vs. the DC, which is the giants CMD. If your acrobatics skill is 11 points lower than their CMD (30, so +19, in the case of the smallest Huge giant) then you have a 50/50 shot at not taking the AoO. If your UMD skill is 11 points lower than the wand DC (20, so +9) you likewise have a 50/50 shot of not taking the AoO.
Piccolo, do the math. Just because your bonus is higher doesn't mean your chance of success is higher!
BAB is not relevant to skills (unless you get owl style or versatile training, neither of which gets greater than maxing the skill), and almost none have a dex mod 10 points higher than their cha mod - the difference between the CMD of a stone giant and the DC of activating a wand.It is to CMB and the like. Dexterity tends to kick in to help with Acrobatics, you know. It also helps with CMD.
Point is, UMD is no solution when your Charisma sucks and you don't have class access naturally, which most classes don't. Warriors tend to have terrible Charisma in the first place, and are far more likely to have a high Strength or Dexterity instead, so wouldn't it make more sense to go with that instead of trying to pull off something that requires you to buy a charged item and blow a standard action when you can just Acrobatics your way in past a monster's reach induced attacks of opportunity and just pound the bejeezus out of said giant?
CMB doesn't help when you're trying to get past a giant's reach. Nor does your CMD unless the giant is trying to trip you or something. What matters is your acrobatics vs. the DC, which is the giants CMD. If your acrobatics skill is 11 points lower than their CMD (30, so +19, in the case of the smallest Huge giant) then you have a 50/50 shot at not taking the AoO. If your UMD skill is 11 points lower than the wand DC (20, so +9) you likewise have a 50/50 shot of not taking the AoO.
Piccolo, do the math. Just because your bonus is higher doesn't mean your chance of success is higher!
I have. In almost every instance in Giantslayer, Acrobatics worked. I watched it happen, time and again. Seriously dude, I ran the entire campaign from start to finish. AGAIN, I couldn't lay a finger on the PC in question. And it wasn't for lack of trying, or ganging up, or flanking, or whatever. Put simply, UMD is not good enough, and is not only overly complicated, it works out to a lot more money spent to do the same damn thing that Acrobatics does.
Try this math out:
Acrobatics as a class skill
A decent Dexterity
Mithril plate armor
Fighter class, standard.
It works. Plain and simple, and you don't have to blow gold on charged items that eventually get used up, and it's reliable.
UMD is not. It also uses up standard actions. Plus, once you get in close with Acrobatics, you can cut loose with iterative attacks.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have. In almost every instance in Giantslayer, Acrobatics worked. I watched it happen, time and again. Seriously dude, I ran the entire campaign from start to finish. AGAIN, I couldn't lay a finger on the PC in question. And it wasn't for lack of trying, or ganging up, or flanking, or whatever. Put simply, UMD is not good enough, and is not only overly complicated, it works out to a lot more money spent to do...BAB is not relevant to skills (unless you get owl style or versatile training, neither of which gets greater than maxing the skill), and almost none have a dex mod 10 points higher than their cha mod - the difference between the CMD of a stone giant and the DC of activating a wand.It is to CMB and the like. Dexterity tends to kick in to help with Acrobatics, you know. It also helps with CMD.
Point is, UMD is no solution when your Charisma sucks and you don't have class access naturally, which most classes don't. Warriors tend to have terrible Charisma in the first place, and are far more likely to have a high Strength or Dexterity instead, so wouldn't it make more sense to go with that instead of trying to pull off something that requires you to buy a charged item and blow a standard action when you can just Acrobatics your way in past a monster's reach induced attacks of opportunity and just pound the bejeezus out of said giant?
CMB doesn't help when you're trying to get past a giant's reach. Nor does your CMD unless the giant is trying to trip you or something. What matters is your acrobatics vs. the DC, which is the giants CMD. If your acrobatics skill is 11 points lower than their CMD (30, so +19, in the case of the smallest Huge giant) then you have a 50/50 shot at not taking the AoO. If your UMD skill is 11 points lower than the wand DC (20, so +9) you likewise have a 50/50 shot of not taking the AoO.
Piccolo, do the math. Just because your bonus is higher doesn't mean your chance of success is higher!
First off, Mithral Full Plate is definitely going be more expensive than the suggested UMD uses. But lets do the maths for your acrobatics here - lets say you start as a 14 dex fighter (I can't see you going higher than that if you're using STR for attack and damage), have 0 ACP from mithral full plate and armour training, max ranks in Acrobatics, and have purchased boots of elvenkind for a +5 competence bonus, and have a +2 enhancement bonus to dex. This has now cost you at around 19,500 gp - far more than the UMD suggestion. At level 9, lets say, what is your acrobatics:
9 ranks + 3 dex + 3 class skill + 5 competence = +20 acrobatics
Lets not put this up against someone scary, just an equal CR giant - not a boss. A Frost Giant, only Large sized, has a 29 CMD - so you have to roll a 9 to succeed, giving you only a 60% success chance. Now lets say you go up against a boss - a Taiga Giant, APL+3 CR - so a big boss fight. They have a CMD of 39, so you need a 19 to succeed - a 10% success chance. Or if you take that Frost Giant and give them 3 fighter levels, they'll likely by CMD 29 base + 3 bab + 2 strength + 1 dex (from gaining class levels) = CMD 35 minimum, giving you a 30% chance of success.
The point is, without extreme optimization, you just can't reliably succeed with Acrobatics checks against even standard Bestiary giants of appropriate CR. At that same level, however, with UMD, you can. Lets say you're an 8 CHA fighter at level 9 - you had bought a wand key ring of 3000gp, taken a trait to make it a class skill, and invested the minimum ranks you need. For a grand total cost of 3k gp + 750gp for the wand, you have a UMD of:
6 (ranks) - 1 (charisma) + 1 (trait) + 3 (class skill) + 10 (wand key ring) = +19, and so you cannot fail to activate it. For far under half the price, you can easily full-attack that Taiga giant from before without provoking an AoO - either with a potion of enlarge person or a reach weapon.
The point is, you can complain all you want about how Acrobatics is simpler, but it's going to be more difficult to optimize the Acrobatics, less effective, and more expensive than simply investing in UMD - the maths doesn't lie.
I’m not sure if the OP has selected his character yet, but based on our ludicrous 8 man Giantslayer party, the best builds are:
1. Dwarven warpriest/monk/sky seeker (?) prestige class, with a reach hammer (cheese supreme)
2. Longarm drinking, 2 weapon fighting Investigator
3. Dedicated archery cleric (helped by the huge size of rooms and giants not being very fast)
4. 2 handed weapon Paladin
What really causes the referee to cry is the layering of buffs from different characters, Because the AP doesn’t mix up creature types much, with specialised weapons and spells. (Hunter’s Blessing) plus bard song and a debuffing witch we are rocking an additional +5 - 10 on all attacks against giants.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, it wasn't extreme AC. The players did have a magic item crafter, but I limited them to crafting pluses that were lower than the normal magic item crafting rules by mistake.
And to be frank, avr, this wasn't anything about how the results should be, it was exactly what happened. Your snide commentary aside, this simple formula worked.
And I quote, "Don't be a dick."
Not to be rude, but you are the same guy that, by your own admission, considers Full plates mechanically as Bleastplates-with-additional-pieces, models crafting times on "realism" rather than using Craft rules, and uses real life examples to trump RAW. Honestly, I don't see how anyone could trust your anecdotal "evidence" based on your own home games.
Math clearly says the opposite of what you have been claiming, so if it doesn't reflect what happened in your game, then there must be something off with how you ran it.
|
|
I’m not sure if the OP has selected his character yet, but based on our ludicrous 8 man Giantslayer party, the best builds are:
1. Dwarven warpriest/monk/sky seeker (?) prestige class, with a reach hammer (cheese supreme)
2. Longarm drinking, 2 weapon fighting Investigator
3. Dedicated archery cleric (helped by the huge size of rooms and giants not being very fast)
4. 2 handed weapon PaladinWhat really causes the referee to cry is the layering of buffs from different characters, Because the AP doesn’t mix up creature types much, with specialised weapons and spells. (Hunter’s Blessing) plus bard song and a debuffing witch we are rocking an additional +5 - 10 on all attacks against giants.
Interesting. It sounds like you played this scenario with a powerful party. It sounds like your most effective builds against giants were:
* 3/4 BaB partial-caster reach fighter* A two-weapon reach fighter
* An archer-caster
* A two handed weapon Paladin
Thanks for that. Future readers take note.
If a 3/4 BAB class is doing great, I have to wonder if I need to reconsider my 2nd element for my Kinetic Knight. I was planning on going Aether into something with a touch attack so I can hit with iteratives, but all of the choices have problems.
If I go Water for Cold (and shimmering mirage), frost giants will be immune.
If I go Air for Lightning (and Wings of Air), storm giants will be immune.
If I go Fire for Fire, Fire Giants will be immune.
Even though void is lacking in utility I guess I could pick a negative energy blast and just hope I don't run into a lot of undead, since I can use that against all the giants. Plus centering "Darkness" on people you hit might be fun since Giants don't have Darkvision usually.
Or if hitting more than once with a bunch of 3/4 BAB attacks isn't a big deal, I might not need a touch attack.
Well, the last chapter is titled something like "shadow of the storm tyrant" but I suppose by that point I will have a 3rd element.
Edit: in fact the solicit for the AP volume says "an adventure for 15th level characters" so that would be right when I get element #3. So long as I wouldn't be fighting many storm giants before then, I'd be fine.
Not to be rude, but you are the same guy that, by your own admission, considers Full plates mechanically as Bleastplates-with-additional-pieces,
They are. Flat out. Would you like to see more than a few videos showing this fact? I can cite chapter and verse, from multiple sources. I already started to a while back. Would you like a different source?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They are. Flat out. Would you like to see more than a few videos showing this fact? I can cite chapter and verse, from multiple sources. I already started to a while back. Would you like a different source?
Not to be rude, but you are the same guy that, by your own admission, considers Full plates mechanically as Bleastplates-with-additional-pieces,
Which PFRPG rulebook is it in?
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
They are. Flat out. Would you like to see more than a few videos showing this fact? I can cite chapter and verse, from multiple sources. I already started to a while back. Would you like a different source?
Not to be rude, but you are the same guy that, by your own admission, considers Full plates mechanically as Bleastplates-with-additional-pieces,
The term mechanically there refers to the mechanics of the game. If you're citing chapter and verse, I think you're looking at the wrong book.
I enjoy how you say 'it's simple maths' as well, yet when the maths blatantly proves you wrong, you ignore it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Interesting. It sounds like you played this scenario with a powerful party. It sounds like your most effective builds against giants were:
* 3/4 BaB partial-caster reach fighter
* A two-weapon reach fighter
* An archer-caster
* A two handed weapon PaladinThanks for that. Future readers take note.
Well, we are still in book 5, so potentially it could still go horribly wrong...
The key to our success is buffs, buffs, and yet more buffs. Every party member is at least a partial caster, and everyone is boosting to-hit or damage, either personal or the entire party.My main, spoiler-free, take-away from Giantslayer is that it isn’t a particularly sophisticated AP in terms of plot - the title pretty much sums up the bulk of the adventure, and anyone wanting to play an investigative / social / scholarly character should look elsewhere.
|
|
They are. Flat out. Would you like to see more than a few videos showing this fact? I can cite chapter and verse, from multiple sources. I already started to a while back. Would you like a different source?
Not to be rude, but you are the same guy that, by your own admission, considers Full plates mechanically as Bleastplates-with-additional-pieces,
Hey Piccolo, about those references...