Hey folks. Making a campaign and looking for concept advice.
The general storyline is that the world and universe of Golarion comes under attack from beings of another universe. The other universe doesn't have magic, which puts them at some disadvantage. They do, however, have a higher mastery of technology.
They also come from a universe with 4 physical dimensions (height, depth, width, something else) instead of 3 physical dimensions (height, depth, width). This will make it more difficult for PC's to locate and fight the enemies (who now exist somehow as 3-dimensional representations of 4-dimensional beings, but I also recognize I'm treading a difficult line here between nuisance, headache, and novelty.
Basically, the PC's are forced to fight non-euclidian enemies. I know Cthulhu gets his own 'non-euclidian' special ability, but I don't think it really reaches the level of interesting that a non-euclidian fight scene could entail.
How would you conceptualize and carry out a non-euclidian fight?
It entirely depends on what the 'something else' physical dimension allows for the non-euclidian enemies to do. I've got a pretty good grasp of what a 4th dimensional physical direction MIGHT make possible, but I am not sure it matches up with what you think it might do.
Specifically, I believe it would render the players completely flat-footed to any attack that the enemies make, unless they can either see it coming (somehow) or have an ability like uncanny dodge (or improved).
My current thought is that PCs will perceive 4-dimensional enemies as being in multiple spaces at once - stretched across the direction of their travel, perhaps, or in two spaces on opposite sides of the PCs, and potentially able to attack from either side. I don't know that I'll make PCs flat-footed against attacks, but I suppose it's possible.
According to Einstein, I believe, the 4th dimension is time. I think current thought on it is that it only travels one way, into the future. But what if it didn't? The NPCs could jump back and forth in time to attack and harry the PCs.
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Maybe every turn you could roll a d6 or something to determine where the enemy actually is.
This feels functionally similar to mirror image.
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According to Einstein, I believe, the 4th dimension is time. I think current thought on it is that it only travels one way, into the future. But what if it didn't? The NPCs could jump back and forth in time to attack and harry the PCs.
Ouch, that's just mean! :)
In the universe that the enemies come from, time would be the 5th dimension.
Maybe every turn you could roll a d6 or something to determine where the enemy actually is.
This feels functionally similar to mirror image.
Part of the effect would probably be similar to mirror image, although since it's just an effect of how they exist, it wouldn't be subject to being dispelled, although probably experience fighting the baddies could result in a lowering DC to determine the correct square(s) of origin (maybe?)
Ability to simultaneously appear on two sides at once would give flanking.
The most basic thing would be to give them a permanent or Blink effect. Works very well early on as it would take a 4th dimensional being a bit of getting used to operating on 3 so the 20% miss chance on them but 50% on players makes since. Refining tech could allow for improvement to a Displacement like effect. (Except true seeing doesn’t negate it.) Could combine it with the above so that the trail they leave a copy in each square it moves through that functions like Mirror Image in that the chance of hitting is 1/number of squares the creature moved that turn.
Consider using folded space as this dimension as well. Stepping through this extra dimension to move about the battlefield from point A to B in a manner similar to teleporting but not requiring any more difficulty than a regular move action. This would allow them to bypass difficult terrain or obstacles, avoid AoOs, and get into tactically advantageous positions. This could even be used to allow a creature to reach through this dimension to use melee attack on distant enemies while keeping its distance. If I recall there is a way an Arcanist can do something like that.
Maybe with Shot on the Run or Ride by Attack they can make a detour and attack a player at point C while they’re at it. Another possibility is allowing a stealth opposed by player perception,or maybe even Knowledge (Planes or Engineering) to catch them flat footed. Or just allow for free action feinting when this is ability is used.
If you go with a time dimension aspect, (which is a different beast from non-euclidian geometry) maybe allow a creature to rewind time so many times a day to reroll a missed attack against the player or undo a negative effect that happened to themselves if the player that performed the action fails a Will save. Akin to an improved and retroactive version of the Witch’s Fortune hex. This could even be done to allow a creature “resurrect” itself by having it just rewind time on itself so that the killing blow just never happened. Unless it’s supposed to be a recurring rival that grows with the PCs, I’d limit this resurrection to a certain number of times. Otherwise to force the rival to stay dead, an artifact, bit of their tech, or something similar may be needed.
It could cause sickening or confusion effects by subjecting PCs to them. But that’s more of a harkening to Lovecraft’s inability to understand math than actual non-euclidian traits.
I recommend splitting up some of these abilities so that different mooks have different powers. Different types of troops with different jobs.
These enemies could possibly flank with themselves.
There is an environmental trap rule for encountering non-euclidean geometry in the Dark Roads & Golden Hells. It has a table for various effects such as becoming immaterial or being teleported away in a random direction.
A 4th physical dimension interacting with our 3 dimensions would actually be relatively simple. To explain, lets compare 3 dimensions and 2 dimensions.
A sphere that passes through a 2 dimensional space is just a series of circles, but the sphere can do two things. First, it can leave the 2D space, change it's position in 3D space and re-enter the 2D space at a different location.
Second, it can change it's apparent size by passing through the 2D space. When it first touches it would just be a single point, but then as it passes through, it would appear to grow larger, and then smaller. If you rotate the sphere without changing it's place in 3D, the circle remains the same, even though the cross section within could change depending on the sphere's internal structure.
Applying this to 4-D projecting into 3D, a creature would only present one portion of itself into our perception. There would be no way to perceive the creature completely, because much like in the 2D vs 3D comparison, there is no "up" (from the 2D perspective) to look into. As soon as you make the 4D perceivable, you are now in the 4th dimension. Just like that as soon as you look up from a flat plane, you are no longer on a flat plane, but a 3 dimensional space.
What to do for the game?
1. Decide how "big" the creature can be. You don't need to fully define the 4th dimension, all you need to do is decide what is the maximum size as measured in our 3 dimensions. If you're going with multiple enemies, I'd suggest Large, and with single enemies, go with whatever the biggest creature of that CR range is. Then, during the fight, have it change size as it projects more or less of itself into the 3D space. If it is a large creature, it could project just portions of itself, but no further away than its maximum size. Each projection would be representative of the creature, but should be different (think like the 4D equivalent of the right and left half of the body, so mirrored could work).
2. Decide how fast the creature is. Again, you don't need to map this out in 4D (since we can't do that), but just pick a relative speed to 3D. Then, during the fight the creature can step out of 3D, use the 4D space to travel to a different point and reappear there.
3. Decide if you want to let them appear ANYWHERE, or make it restricted. If you were fighting 2D enemies, you'd step out of their plane, and just stab them in their 2D heart directly. In theory, a 4D creature would perceive us as being exposed to the 4th dimension in a similar way. If you want to make it restrictive, I'd go with something otherworldly.
An anchoring device, say a strange looking monolith that's a hypercube. Then the creatures can only project onto spaces that follow some mathematical principle, for reasons of "pseudo-science". An easy one is prime numbers, squares who's distance is a prime number from the anchor are safe for these creatures to project into. You could even tie size to the distance from the anchor. The closer they are to the anchor, the bigger they are. At distances over 500 feet (100 squares), they are smaller than Fine, and so limited in their capacity to actually affect the 3D world. This would mean they could appear in squares:
2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97
Single digits, max size is large.
11 through 23, max size is medium.
29 through 43, max size is small.
47 through 61, max size is tiny.
67 through 79, max size is diminutive.
83 to 97 is fine.
I like Irontruth's 'further away than it really is' size change. That's also a 'faster approach than it really is', I would think, functionally.
I imagine the melee attacks of such a critter might bat a 3D PC 'out' of the 3D 'plane', to 'land' some distance away, perhaps with a glimpse of the world from 'above'.
Of course, we've all read Flatland, yes?
The most basic thing would be to give them a permanent or Blink effect. Works very well early on as it would take a 4th dimensional being a bit of getting used to operating on 3 so the 20% miss chance on them but 50% on players makes since.
That's a very good idea, and definitely plays until the fact that life for 4+dimensional beings wouldn't be a cake walk in a 3 dimensional world. Is also makes life more bearable at early levels for the PCs when they run into the baddies.
There is an environmental trap rule for encountering non-euclidean geometry in the Dark Roads & Golden Hells. It has a table for various effects such as becoming immaterial or being teleported away in a random direction.
I'll have to look into that, it sounds really useful - I was having a hard time deciding how things will play out if/when the characters decide to take the fight back to the other universe and have to get used to a 4-dimensional existence.
A 4th physical dimension interacting with our 3 dimensions would actually be relatively simple. To explain, lets compare 3 dimensions and 2 dimensions.
A sphere that passes through a 2 dimensional space is just a series of circles, but the sphere can do two things. First, it can leave the 2D space, change it's position in 3D space and re-enter the 2D space at a different location.
Second, it can change it's apparent size by passing through the 2D space. When it first touches it would just be a single point, but then as it passes through, it would appear to grow larger, and then smaller. If you rotate the sphere without changing it's place in 3D, the circle remains the same, even though the cross section within could change depending on the sphere's internal structure.
Applying this to 4-D projecting into 3D, a creature would only present one portion of itself into our perception.
Nicely done. That's an amazingly concise way to conceptualize this concept, Irontruth, and I really appreciate this bit. It gives me a lot to run with as far as description of appearances is concerned and as far as how the beings interact with the Golarion universe.