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A sorcerer wants an efficient quiver to store his wand collection. He reasons that this would allow him to draw wands as a free action, like it is a free action to draw arrows.
Is this correct?
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There's nothing saying that drawing anything (arrows included) from the quiver are a free action. The closest it says is: "Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard."
Looking at the Combat rules, drawing a weapon is a move action (or can be done as part of a move action if you BAB is +1 or higher). This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands.
And: "Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action."
So if a wand is a "weapon-like object" and drawing something from the efficient quiver is the same as drawing a normal something from somewhere close at hand, a wand would still be a "weapon-like object" and would therefore be a move action to draw it, just like pulling a bow, spear, or javelin from the efficient quiver would be.
Was there a specific reason for wondering beyond curiosity?
Yes. I am not sure how game-breaking it is to let him draw wands as a free action. He has about a couple dozen wands now for a variety of spells. He wants to draw a different wand, use it, and then still move to a better position because some of his wands' spells are close range or touch-range buffs.
It appears as said above ... unclear
Personally I'd let you pull a wand out as part of a move action/free action (ala pulling a weapon out while moving with a BAB of +1 or better). Frankly unless he plans on pulling out several to hand off or just have them outside the extradimensional space etc. what exactly the action is is essentially moot/who cares beyond theory crafting mechanics which is probably why we're never seen it clarified. Was there a specific reason for wondering beyond curiosity?
What part is unclear? What you quoted says that you can pull things out as if from a scabbard or quiver. Pulling out ammunition from a quiver is a free action, drawing a weapon from a scabbard is a move action (or can be done as part of a move action).
"As part of a move action" versus simply being a free action are two fairly different things. (Eg: "Do a free action, use a wand, move somewhere else" would not work if drawing a wand out of an efficient quiver if pulling a wand out is the same as drawing a weapon.)Does it make sense that you can pull out ammunition as a free action but not a wand? No, not really.
But drawing a dagger from a sheath right at your hip is a move action (or part of a move action) so logic clearly doesn't apply to why a wand can't be pulled from an efficient quiver as a free action but an arrow can.
All of the rules, as written, point to a wand as being a "weapon-like object" and doesn't count as ammunition at all therefore no, you can't draw a wand as a free action even if it's in an efficient quiver.
Is there anything that indicates a wand shouldn't count as a weapon-like object? Or that you can pull something out of an efficient quiver as any action other than what normally applies to that object?
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Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.It appears as said above ... unclear
From my reading I think the RAW states that drawing as a free action only applies to bow ammunition. Although this might not be completely consistent with real-world logic, the clause specifically for arrows is probably there so archers can actually execute full attacks like melee attackers can.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
As even the Quick Draw feat doesn't apply to wands, I don't think he should be able to draw a wand as a free action with an item that is for a different purpose entirely.
It's a move action.
I have a houserule that allows PCs to draw items from a bandoleer as per the drawing a weapon rules. BAB 1 or more allows that to be a free action when combined with moving.
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What has always added to the confusion is that you store the wands in the same spots in the quiver as arrows, and they take up the same amount of space. So players want to equate them in terms of what action it is to take them out. The reason that doesn't work is that the action economy is not based on whether or not the items are similar in shape. It's based on whether or not you should be able to draw a wand as a free action or not, and everywhere else in the rules that is not allowed (ie, not working with Quickdraw, even though wands are weapon-like).
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Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Technically, drawing ammunition is only a free action when you are doing it for use with a ranged weapon. If you were drawing it to do something else like stab someone, it’d be a move action like everything else. The rules don’t always perfectly mimic real life or logic.
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Okay so which is it?
An arrow is neither a weapon (outside of improvised one anyway, it's ammunition for a weapon) and is not typically stored in a scabbard. As ammo it may be drawn as a Free Action. A wand is also clearly neither although it is physical much closer to an arrow than any of the other choices mentioned. That's what's not clear what are you to treat a wand like ammo or weapon. It's probably shorter and more fragile on average than an arrow to my way of thinking (but not too different in size than a bolt). I'd personally be fine calling it a free action to remove a wand from the Efficient Quiver. I think the main advantage as a free action (having thought on it a bit) would be allowing the user to place an item into its appropriate storage space whether that be a Haversack, Bag of Holding, scabbard, or the Quiver prior to withdrawing the current wand of choice. Essentially using a Full Round (2 move actions) to swap wands seems a bit slower than "quickly" but maybe that's just me.
As I've said, a wand is a weapon-like object. (As per page 186 of the Core Rulebook under "Draw or Sheath a Weapon": "Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.")
Since it's a move action to retrieve a wand when it is located somewhere close at hand pulling it out of an efficient quiver is a move action. Again, there is nothing in the write-up for the efficient quiver that would change what kind of action it is to take something out of it.An arrow is ammunition for a bow and therefore can be drawn as a free action. (Page 187 of the Core Rulebook, still under "Draw or Sheath a Weapon": "Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action." Being able to pull an arrow out of an efficient quiver as a free action has nothing to do with the item other than the fact that it puts the arrow close at hand.
Why is it unclear to you as to if a wand counts as a weapon-like object or as ammunition? The book very plainly says that it's a weapon-like object, as I've said a few times in this thread.
What you would allow is fine; that's your ruling. But it's not supported by the rules in the books.
(And for the record, as per the rules, pulling a wand out of a regular quiver would be a move action. Using an efficient quiver wouldn't change it to a free action as, again, nothing in the write-up for the efficient quiver says it changes what the action is to draw something from it.)
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What part is unclear? What you quoted says that you can pull things out as if from a scabbard or quiver. Pulling out ammunition from a quiver is a free action, drawing a weapon from a scabbard is a move action (or can be done as part of a move action).Okay so which is it?
An arrow is neither a weapon (outside of improvised one anyway, it's ammunition for a weapon) and is not typically stored in a scabbard. As ammo it may be drawn as a Free Action. A wand is also clearly neither although it is physical much closer to an arrow than any of the other choices mentioned. That's what's not clear what are you to treat a wand like ammo or weapon. It's probably shorter and more fragile on average than an arrow to my way of thinking (but not too different in size than a bolt). I'd personally be fine calling it a free action to remove a wand from the Efficient Quiver. I think the main advantage as a free action (having thought on it a bit) would be allowing the user to place an item into its appropriate storage space whether that be a Haversack, Bag of Holding, scabbard, or the Quiver prior to withdrawing the current wand of choice. Essentially using a Full Round (2 move actions) to swap wands seems a bit slower than "quickly" but maybe that's just me.
? I have no clue why you say anything is unclear.
Your current argument is that PERHAPS wands can be treated as ammo, correct?
I see no justification for this at all.
In my earlier post, the rules clearly define ammo as arrows, bolts, darts, and sling bullets. Yes, Shurikens and firearm cartridges aren't listed here, but they weren't in the core rulebook. However, WANDS WERE, so if they were intended to be "ammunition," they would have been included at this point.
Still unconvinced?
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/
In addition to arrows, bolts, darts, and sling bullets, there are shurikens, bullets, and cartridges. No wands.
Is a wand a weapon? Well, first of all, wands are nowhere on the weapon's list. You don't need proficiencies for them, and they don't have assigned damage dice. Yes, I feel the need to specifically point out that wands are not weapons.
"Okay but is it a "weapon-like object?" If not, what is a wand then?"
Wands fall under "magic items" in the rulebook. Thus. It is a magic item. Incidentally, retrieving a stored item is a move action. In my earlier post, I mentioned the Quick Draw feat. It's very clear to me that weapons and wands are treated differently. Why else would the feat explicitly mention wands as something you can't draw quickly even with the feat?
If you have any line of the rules and not personal theory you'd like to quote that supports the idea that "wands possibly count as ammunition," I would love to see it.
"Ah, but it's too slow. It doesn't seem fair you can draw an arrow and not a wand."
So are we talking about game balance?
My earlier post touches on this but I'll expand a bit more. Drawing arrows as a free action is an exception to normal "retrieval" rules. If this were not the case, everyone would be severely outdamaging archers, since they would only be able to draw and fire 1 arrow per round. This rule then dramatically helps archers come closer to melee characters in terms of attacks and damage.
Secondly, to me the "longer time" to draw seems fair because you are switching wands.
What does that mean? It means you are using a spell without having it take up any of your slots or daily usages. You don't need to have it prepared, and you don't need to know the spell.
Damn, aren't wands awesome?
Yes. Now, what if drawing wands were a free action or could be part of a move action? Okay. Assuming you use a move action to put the wand in your hand away, by simply giving up a move action and spending a bit of gold, you can now cast any spell on your spell list of 4th level or lower.
Potentially, you could cast unseen servant, and simply drop wands as a free action and have the servant pick them up. You can now move up to your speed and cast any 4th level or lower spell on your spell list almost without cost, and with almost zero short-term cost. That's a lot of utility.
I think being able to cast a spell without burning a daily slot is worth spending a round to swap rounds.
TL;DR Wands are magic items, not weapons or ammunition, and should not be able to be drawn as a free move.
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Wands are weapon-like and explicitly called out as such in the rules on drawing or sheathing a weapon. That’s why QuickDraw has to exclude them. And the FAQ makes it clear weapon-like objects can be drawn as part of a move.
Drawing and Sheathing a Weapon-like Object: I know I can draw or sheathe a weapon-like object as a move action using the "Draw or sheathe a weapon" action, but if I have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, can I draw a weapon-like object with a regular move?
Yes. As shown on the chart on page 183, when you have a BAB of +1 or higher, you are combining the regular draw or sheathe a weapon action (to draw a weapon) with a move action. Thus all rules for draw or sheathe a weapon apply, including the ability to draw a weapon-like object.
Wands are weapon-like and explicitly called out as such in the rules on drawing or sheathing a weapon. That’s why QuickDraw has to exclude them. And the FAQ makes it clear weapon-like objects can be drawn as part of a move.
Drawing and Sheathing a Weapon-like Object: I know I can draw or sheathe a weapon-like object as a move action using the "Draw or sheathe a weapon" action, but if I have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, can I draw a weapon-like object with a regular move?
Yes. As shown on the chart on page 183, when you have a BAB of +1 or higher, you are combining the regular draw or sheathe a weapon action (to draw a weapon) with a move action. Thus all rules for draw or sheathe a weapon apply, including the ability to draw a weapon-like object.
Thanks. I guess dropping wands is a valid tactic then, if anyone wants to do that.
A wand is a weapon therefor its a move action to draw. The text "quickly" on Efficient Quiver seems to be flavor. The wand being a weapon and efficient quiver being counted as a normal scabbard (see item text) means that I think quick draw could be used with wands inside a efficient quiver thus letting you free action draw a wand.
Look this doesn't answer your rules question, but has your player considered using spring loaded wrist sheaths for ease of wand access? Its not a perfect solution but hey its not bad (swift action to draw).
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Quick Draw specifically does not work with wands, despite them being weapon-like. There’s only one way I know of to take a wand out as a free action (Edit: aside from drawing it as part of a move), and that’s to keep it in a glove of storing.
Also, re: drawing wands as part of a move, using them, then dropping them... I do this on my magus. I got an improved familiar to pick them up for me (and potentially use them as well). First it was a brownie, and now it’s a fairy dragon.
A couple Spring-Loaded Wrist Sheaths are probably a better way to accomplish (on a smaller scale) what the player wants here.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-and-armor-accessories/
On the plus side, it's much less expensive.
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There's also one potentially important thing about a Glove of Storing in addition to being able to retrieve the stored object as a free action. The item stored is also not in an extradimensional space. If you are effected by something that shuts down extradimensional spaces (such as entering another extradimensional space), the item in the Glove is still accessible not trapped within as it would be with a Handy Haversack, Bag of Holding or Efficient Quiver.Quick Draw specifically does not work with wands, despite them being weapon-like. There’s only one way I know of to take a wand out as a free action (Edit: aside from drawing it as part of a move), and that’s to keep it in a glove of storing.
<snip>
Wait...? This has come up? Really?
What sort of GM/Writer would do that in a campaign....
No, wait! My friend would defiantly use this. I can hear him laughing now, behind the screen. "Nooo! You can't get anything from your magical backpack device thing...."
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There's also one potentially important thing about a Glove of Storing in addition to being able to retrieve the stored object as a free action. The item stored is also not in an extradimensional space. If you are effected by something that shuts down extradimensional spaces (such as entering another extradimensional space), the item in the Glove is still accessible not trapped within as it would be with a Handy Haversack, Bag of Holding or Efficient Quiver.Quick Draw specifically does not work with wands, despite them being weapon-like. There’s only one way I know of to take a wand out as a free action (Edit: aside from drawing it as part of a move), and that’s to keep it in a glove of storing.
<snip>Wait...? This has come up? Really?
What sort of GM/Writer would do that in a campaign....
No, wait! My friend would defiantly use this. I can hear him laughing now, behind the screen. "Nooo! You can't get anything from your magical backpack device thing...."
It is relevant in a lot of situations, as an example, you can't use extraplanar items while in a rope trick or a Mage's Magnificent Mansion.