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For my first bit of playtesting, I set my party of 5 PCs against a a biohacker, vanguard, and witchwarper bounty hunter crew, building the enemies as PCs of the same level (11th).
The purpose of this was to show off the new classes and to see how powerful the new classes are and how strong the combos are.
I'll summarize here what I will also submit in my survey (after I've had a chance to test out a few more of the new classes' abilities; one combat is not enough).
Operative (melee-focus)
Soldier (eldritch assailant*/blitz)
Solarian (solar weapon, photon focused)
Mechanic (exocortex, not optimized for combat)
Techomancer (all spells, has not fired a gun in 4 levels)
Kasatha vanguard (able to wield a shield, polarity gauntlets, and smoke grenade at once)
Genetics Biohacker (with injector pistol and smoke grenade)
Blasty Witchwarper (only carrying grenades)
After a brief chase (which served mainly to position PCs on the battlefield based on their speed) the fight broke out in an alley that was conveniently 25ft wide and 60ft deep. The operative engaged the vanguard right away.
The first thing the latter did was drop a smoke grenade right at her feet; with blindsight (heat), and her environmental protections on, she could see him (and the solarian when he closed in) clear as day. By chance, everyone in the smoke made saves against breathing smoke on their first round, after which they could protect themselves from it so concealment was the only issue.
The witchwarper was able to keep anyone from escaping effectively by using Infinite World to lower the battlefield where the vanguard was and make everything difficult terrain (which allies of the Biohacker ignored, thanks Limbering Restorative!). The technomancer was able to significantly reduce the threat of the vanguard with a slow spell, but he still was virtually impossible to harm due to both his very high AC[i] and the concealment. Mitigate was not even necessary during this encounter.
Through a creative combination of supernova, quick teleportation, and wall-walking magic items, the PCs were able to minimize (but not completely eliminate) the obstacle of the smoke. While they tried to deal with this problem, the witchwarper was able to pepper the backline with fireb- excuse me, with explosive blasts, while the biohacker was able to weaken the operative with counteragents to keep herself safe. She was able to hit reliably enough to be a problem, but not well enough to be a deciding factor (she failed, blessedly, to make the bloodied players vulnerable to the witchwarper's spells).
The biohacker was the first to die, lacking any real defensive of mobility skills. The witchwarper was hard to pin down, as she could keep flash teleporting away (with 13 Resolve points, she could afford to) through the incredibly complex battlefield she created. Someone would reach her, hit her once, and she would escape and cast another spell. Eventually, though, she was clear of the smoke, and the soldier and technomancer were able to take her down with a couple attacks.
The vanguard never died.
With level-appropriate armor, personal upgrades, and a shield, she still had well over 200 health by round 7. She did not need to use mitigate or align her shield during the fight. Because the solarian and technomancer with both a hit away fro being down (and, frankly, because they were all getting tired) they decided to flee with one last dimension door spell rather than risk someone going down with the vanguard.
Biohacker
-Biohacker is on equal footing with the existing classes, but [i]their support/defense is much worse than their offense. Each attack applies decent damage as well as multiple conditions while support options on apply helpful conditions. In practice, the best thing for her to do was try to hit every enemy at least once, which might be the whole combat.
Vaguard/Shields
-Vanguard survivability is kind of absurd, in no small part thanks to the addition of shields. Even without mitigate OR aligning the shield as a move action, she was tougher than every other character on the field and did comparable damage to them (especially when using entropic strike with polarity gauntlets). Entropy points were not used, and I barely kept track of them after she got the first one.
-It's also worth noting that the addition of sheilds gives a vicarious buff to small arms as well as race with extra hands, like kasatha, as it's a worthwhile trade to have lower damage, but higher AC. Both of those are things I like.
Witchwarper
-Infinite Worlds is good. Making difficult terrain alone is incredibly valuable in practice when you have a strong melee combatant on your side. All of the other changes; gravity, wind conditions, ground level, are icing on the cake. There's also the added shock factor utility of, as this one did, abruptly turning the town square into a mushroom forest in the middle of a crowd as a distraction. Combine this effect with utility grenades to entangle or stagger your foes, and you will own the battlefield.
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The most combat impressions spoiler doesn't work, and I'm dying to hear the opinions!
Awesome, thanks for that!
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-Vanguard survivability is kind of absurd
Monsters have higher to hit and lower AC than a normal character. A level 11 character has the to hit of a level 7 monster. So, that's absolutely normal. Vanguard has to be tested against normal opponents, and its survivability will be quite lowered.
-Vanguard survivability is kind of absurdMonsters have higher to hit and lower AC than a normal character. A level 11 character has the to hit of a level 7 monster. So, that's absolutely normal. Vanguard has to be tested against normal opponents, and its survivability will be quite lowered.
Well, it is lowered from "absurd", but the vanguard is by far and away the toughest class to hit, and it all comes online pretty fast. A good thing, class works as intended.
Yes, I'm not saying the class is balanced (I haven't tested it), but at least, it should be able to be a proper tank.
Still, tanking is something extremely hard to balance. If you don't do enough damage, you can't tank as monsters will ignore you. If you do too much damage, you end up being a clear upgrade from more normal classes.
That's why most online RPGs give tanks some abilities to get aggro beside damage. And I think that, without such type of mechanics (not litteraly this mechanic), a tanking class will be a bit hard to balance.
Well hey there, thread I started and forgot to follow up on!
The Vanguard definitely seems really beefy. One question, how much use didn't they get out of their EP? How many EP did they gain over the course of the fight? It seems like slow can be really bad for a Vanguard as their lack of mobility is a huge limiting factor along with their lower damage. My biggest fear with the Vanguard is that while they're basically immortal (hyperbole) it seems like it would be very boring playing a class that can't be hurt, but also can't really do much offensively due to movement issues. They'd probably be more enjoyable to me if the were more the Juggernaut and less the Blob. But I understand it can be hard to balance a class like that.
As for EP, as I mentioned, I never really had to use it, as she never took enough damage to want to use mitigate. She probably gained about 2 or 3 total, though only the first one mattered.
One could argue that a slow spell would be a much bigger problem for an operative or soldier, who benefits from full actions a lot more than a vanguard does. It could get boring for a player if they get slowed a lot, but it that's true of any cc ability, and there are many.
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Yes, I'm not saying the class is balanced (I haven't tested it), but at least, it should be able to be a proper tank.
Still, tanking is something extremely hard to balance. If you don't do enough damage, you can't tank as monsters will ignore you. If you do too much damage, you end up being a clear upgrade from more normal classes.
That's why most online RPGs give tanks some abilities to get aggro beside damage. And I think that, without such type of mechanics (not litteraly this mechanic), a tanking class will be a bit hard to balance.
Vanguards do have a way to pull aggro: they have a lot of abilities that make it harder to take down his allies. Shimmer Guard and Intervene are my favorites, but the vanguard has several others as well.
It's not mind control. The monster is free to attack the vanguard's allies instead; but it'll be hard going. Much easier to focus on taking down the vanguard first. Exactly what a tank wants to achieve.
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The Vanguard definitely seems really beefy. One question, how much use didn't they get out of their EP? How many EP did they gain over the course of the fight?
Look beyond EP. Right now EP doesn't do that much, but that's also because vanguards have some really good options that don't involve EP.
It seems like slow can be really bad for a Vanguard as their lack of mobility is a huge limiting factor along with their lower damage. My biggest fear with the Vanguard is that while they're basically immortal (hyperbole) it seems like it would be very boring playing a class that can't be hurt, but also can't really do much offensively due to movement issues. They'd probably be more enjoyable to me if the were more the Juggernaut and less the Blob. But I understand it can be hard to balance a class like that.
Slow is a painful spell for vanguards because they have a weak will save and may not have bumped Wisdom. They can afford a spare feat for Iron Will though and probably should do that, as well as getting a Ring of Resistance. Vanguards have several uses for move actions (keeping up with disengaging enemies, staying in front of allies, full attacks, activating disciplines, raising shields). Slow hurts.
But apart from that, if you really have trouble keeping up with your party, ask what's going with that party. Are they running forward faster than their meatshield? Not very smart. Or are you having trouble closing with ranged enemies? If you're using a strength (heavy armor) build, use thrown weapons to return fire. Or a smoke grenade. If you're using a dex (heavy armor) build, you're proficient with small arms. If you're using a dex (light armor) build, how come you have movement problems? Take the Fleet feat or implants.
I realize we're playtesting shields alongside vanguards, but as long as shields require a dedicated move action to raise, I'm not sure vanguards should be using them. You need that move action.
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Four points to use Aspect Catalyst on command. You also get a free use on your first crit, and a free powerful use if you ever dip into your hp.
I realize we're playtesting shields alongside vanguards, but as long as shields require a dedicated move action to raise, I'm not sure vanguards should be using them. You need that move action.
Shields provide the higher bonus with a move action, but the first value is applied all the time if you already have the shield out. So its still providing some benefit (unless you're behind cover, but then the move action doesn't do anything either). Given Vanguards do the same amount of damage with 1-handed or 2-handed weapons (or no weapons) with entropic strike, their
The bigger question is the riot shield move speed penalty too much on top of a potential -10 foot heavy armor penalty. If you've got a slow race (like say a Kalo or Urog), its possible to build a melee class with a 5 foot move speed with just their armor and shield.
Understood. The lack of EP is bothersome. If it's 4 EP (barring crits which are too unreliable) to use an Aspect Catalyst, I really don't see them being used that much. If the Vanguard really has as much health left as you said consistently, I see the improved versions happening even less. Heck, the aspects could probably be removed completely and you wouldn't see much difference in the class, which kind of sucks. Though this is based on other PCs who tend to have lower attacks bonuses than NPC enemies... And not sure if you wasted a move action to spend RP for EP. I really feel that should be a swift action instead of a move action, given the Vanguard's mobility issues.
I'll note that at level 11, the Vanguard was too low level to have the Aspect Catalyst ability. I find it interesting its such a late ability, that the SFS playtest can't even test that part of the class.
If the aspect is removed, you'll lose the equivalent of 1.5 feats and some EP gain that we don't care about, so I agree, you wouldn't notice much of a difference during this playtest.
Also, I believe Boundary is currently the best aspect for playtest characters because your aspect catalyst doesn't matter because no one is playtesting that high, and it doesn't dictate a potentially sub-optimal action choice to even try to get the point. It just happens in the normal ebb and flow of combat.
A reasonably common and useful action involving entropy points needs to be established at level 1 or 2, not level 12 when most people are wrapping up an AP or ending their SFS career. That is supposed to be mitigate, but the Vanguard seems to be so tanky already its overkill.
I'm starting to wonder if a Dex/Con focused class with heavy armor is simply too much stacked defense just from the start, even before abilities come into play.
I look at this way. The game's been tuned to assume you've got Solarian and Soldier melee front liners and the occasional off-brand melee build. I presume the intent is that melee Envoys and melee Biohackers are viable.
Given those melee builds want Str + Dex + Cha or Str + Dex + Int (to be useful out of combat), I've noticed the other stats, including Con tends to start at 10. And the most important fact is this works out reasonably fine for the melee builds and the party, as far as I can tell.
The Vanguard is going to have 14 to 18 Con at 1st level, and may even prioritize enhancements to Con. It also still has max AC. Combined with base 8 instead of 7 stamina/hp gains per level, means you're looking at between 25% and 50% more effective hit points than a Soldier or Solarian. In some cases where a Soldier or Solarian would have dropped, the Vanguard is only just starting to take hit point damage. And its worse compared to off-brand melee like melee Envoys or melee Biohackers.
And while Vanguard melee damage is on the low end, its still melee damage with full BAB, and will still out damage many 3/4 BAB builds. +3 to hit and 1d3+4 damage at 1st is still more than a 1d6 or 1d8 ranged weapon with similar to-hit.
I feel like its the old full plate and heavy shield fighter and the rogue in leather armor problem. If you want enemies which can hit the fighter, the rogue is just going to take every single hit. Except instead of AC, because enemies are fairly reliable in hitting, it becomes a question of effective hit points and how many rounds you stay standing in every fight.