
DarkPhoenixx |

So, Ritual Garb of the Cheesemaker:
Ritual Crown of the Cheesemaker (Headband of INT +2 UMD, 4 000 gp)
Ritual Mantle of the Cheesemaker (Mnemonic Vestment, 5 000 gp)
Ritual Pendant of the Cheesemaker (Runestone of Power lvl 9, 162 000 gp)
Holy Word of the Cheese-Father (Scroll of Wish, 28 825 gp)
Commoner lvl 20 uses UMD to cast Wish (DC 37 for level 17 wizard, DC 34 for INT 19), uses Mnemonic Vestment (DC 21 for level 1 sorcerer), then uses Runestone of Power instead of spell slot he does not have (DC 21, or DC 38 if you rule that using 9 lvl stone requires spellcaster of level capable of casting lvl 9 spells) making his wish come true once per day.
Is there anything I missed (other than fat chance he will make those checks in the first place)?

Meirril |
The order is a bit messed up, but it ...probably works. There is a sticking point where it might not.
First, convince the Runestone of Power that you have a 9th level spell slot so you can use it. DC = 20(base) + 18 (min level for a spontaneous caster to have a 9th level slot, we choose sorcerer). DC 38.
Second, we need to understand the Wish spell. UMD DC would be 25 + 9 so 34. If you use spellcraft it would be 5 lower.
Third, we convince the robe we're a sorcerer. I'm not absolutely sure how good of a sorcerer we need to be. The minimum level to get the ability to cast spontaneous spells is 1st, but to cast 9th level spells is 18th. So the DC will either be 21 or 38 to get the robes to let you cast the spell you understand from the scroll using the 9th level slot you've acquired from the Runestone of Power.
And that sticking point I mentioned. None of the items actually give you the ability to cast spells. You understand the spell. You are allowed to cast the spell from the scroll as if you knew it. You have an item that is willing to substitute its power in place of a spell slot. But nothing gives you the ability to CAST a spell. And you aren't using an item to cast it so UMD can't help you with this. So technically...you can't?
If the character had any kind of spell casting ability (not spell like ability) that should work for this. Oh, also since we're not consuming the scroll the caster would need to provide the material component for Wish.

Lelomenia |
No, it doesn’t work. You need be a spontaneous caster to use vestment, and you can’t UMD through it. If you could UMD through the whole combo, you would still need to pay 25000 in components everyday for your Wish, so the commoner would probably have a better time hiring Spellcasting services at that point. The commoner could just take Leadership.

DarkPhoenixx |

No, it doesn’t work. You need be a spontaneous caster to use vestment, and you can’t UMD through it. If you could UMD through the whole combo, you would still need to pay 25000 in components everyday for your Wish, so the commoner would probably have a better time hiring Spellcasting services at that point. The commoner could just take Leadership.
Don't need spell components if casting from a scroll, cos they are spent during the creation of it.
You can UMD a class feature, and spellcasting is a class feature.

Lelomenia |
Lelomenia wrote:No, it doesn’t work. You need be a spontaneous caster to use vestment, and you can’t UMD through it. If you could UMD through the whole combo, you would still need to pay 25000 in components everyday for your Wish, so the commoner would probably have a better time hiring Spellcasting services at that point. The commoner could just take Leadership.Don't need spell components if casting from a scroll, cos they are spent during the creation of it.
You can UMD a class feature, and spellcasting is a class feature.
mnemonic vestment says you still have to provide components as normal to cast the spell.

DarkPhoenixx |

DarkPhoenixx wrote:mnemonic vestment says you still have to provide components as normal to cast the spell.Lelomenia wrote:No, it doesn’t work. You need be a spontaneous caster to use vestment, and you can’t UMD through it. If you could UMD through the whole combo, you would still need to pay 25000 in components everyday for your Wish, so the commoner would probably have a better time hiring Spellcasting services at that point. The commoner could just take Leadership.Don't need spell components if casting from a scroll, cos they are spent during the creation of it.
You can UMD a class feature, and spellcasting is a class feature.
Ah, it does, my bad.
And that sticking point I mentioned. None of the items actually give you the ability to cast spells. You understand the spell. You are allowed to cast the spell from the scroll as if you knew it. You have an item that is willing to substitute its power in place of a spell slot. But nothing gives you the ability to CAST a spell. And you aren't using an item to cast it so UMD can't help you with this. So technically...you can't?
Hmm, this is an interesting point.
How would a commoner become lvl 20?
Farming all day every day.

Mysterious Stranger |
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There is one fundamental problem with your scheme. UMD does not allow you to actually use the class feature it just allows you to activate the magic item as if you had the class feature.
So while UMD may allow you to emulate the class feature of spell casting it does not allow you to actually cast spells. You can use UMD to cast a spell from a scroll or a wand because those are separate functions of the skill. The DC to cast from a scroll is actually a lot harder than to emulate a class ability. If you could use emulate class ability to cast a spell why is the difficulty so much higher to cast from a scroll?
The Runestone of power does not give you the power to cast the spell. What it does is allow you to draw upon the power of the Runestone to cast a spell. Basically it lets you use the Runestone instead of a spell slot.
Mnemonic vestment also does not give you the power to cast a spell. What it does is allow you to use a spell slot to cast a spell off a scroll. Basically it allows you to use the spell on the scroll as if it were on your list of spells known.

DarkPhoenixx |

There is one fundamental problem with your scheme. UMD does not allow you to actually use the class feature it just allows you to activate the magic item as if you had the class feature.
So while UMD may allow you to emulate the class feature of spell casting it does not allow you to actually cast spells. You can use UMD to cast a spell from a scroll or a wand because those are separate functions of the skill. The DC to cast from a scroll is actually a lot harder than to emulate a class ability. If you could use emulate class ability to cast a spell why is the difficulty so much higher to cast from a scroll?
The Runestone of power does not give you the power to cast the spell. What it does is allow you to draw upon the power of the Runestone to cast a spell. Basically it lets you use the Runestone instead of a spell slot.
Mnemonic vestment also does not give you the power to cast a spell. What it does is allow you to use a spell slot to cast a spell off a scroll. Basically it allows you to use the spell on the scroll as if it were on your list of spells known.
I just another DC 37 to cast from the scroll, then DC 38 to spoof CL 18 sorcerer.

DarkPhoenixx |

If you cast from the scroll the scroll is consumed. You do not have the ability to cast spells even if you emulate the class ability to cast spells.
You can use UMD to use the scroll, but not to use it like you want to.
I see what you are getting at, Vestment's "once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source" have meaning of cast the spell with your regular ability to cast spells (tho RAW it does give ability to cast a spell regardless, as long as you are spontaneous spellcaster or UMD as one), which is most likely the intent.

willuwontu |
Using the quote you gave me as I'm short on time.
once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source
If you don't have the spell slot, you can't cast it. So RAW it requires you to have spell slots, which AFAIK are only granted by the spellcasting class ability. If you find some other way to have slots that you can use (not emulate through UMD), it'll work.

DarkPhoenixx |

Using the quote you gave me as I'm short on time.
Quote:once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written sourceIf you don't have the spell slot, you can't cast it. So RAW it requires you to have spell slots, which AFAIK are only granted by the spellcasting class ability. If you find some other way to have slots that you can use (not emulate through UMD), it'll work.
Thats why I have the Runestone, it basically says you can expend its power in lieu of spell slot of spontaneous spellcaster.

Meirril |
Mysterious Stranger wrote:I see what you are getting at, Vestment's "once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source" have meaning of cast the spell with your regular ability to cast spells (tho RAW it does give ability to cast a spell regardless, as long as you are spontaneous spellcaster or UMD as one), which is most likely the intent.If you cast from the scroll the scroll is consumed. You do not have the ability to cast spells even if you emulate the class ability to cast spells.
You can use UMD to use the scroll, but not to use it like you want to.
I'm going to point out a little something nobody has brought up because it helps clarify things a bit. Instead of a Scroll of Wish, you could just have a Spellbook with Wish in it. It would work as well as the scroll as far as Mnemonic Vestment is concerned. Because the Vestment only cares that the source is written.
Being able to consume the scroll is immaterial to the question posed. I think OP wanted to know if a commoner could cast wish with items. And I believe he is only short the ability to cast spells.
And I don't think the ability to use a Spell-like ability is good enough. I think you need something that lets you either memorize and cast, or spontaneously cast. Even a divine or psychic spell would be fine.

Mysterious Stranger |

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
The bolded section makes it clear that even if you emulate class ability with the skill you still cannot use it. The class ability you would be emulating to do this is Spells. But because you are only emulating the class feature Spells you cannot use the class feature spells. Spell slots are not a separate class feature they are part of the class feature Spells. This use of UMD is not what allows you to cast spells from a scroll. What allows you to use UMD to cast from a scroll is this function of the skill.
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.
This feature only allows you use the scroll to cast the spell. To use Mnemonic Vestment or Runestone of Power you must be able to actually cast a spell. The only other way to cast a spell with UMD is to use this function of the spell
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.
Looking at the table of the skill all of these are separate and distinct uses of the skill. Each one of them has its own DC on the table.
This would be like trying to use UMD with Druid’s vestments to gain an extra use of wild shape.

blahpers |
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And no, it doesn't work. While you can Use Magic Device to pretend you have a spell slot for the purposes of activating a magic item, you still don't really have a spell slot. You must be able to spontaneously cast a spell using one of your spell slots in order to use a runestone of power in lieu of said spell slot, and no amount of Use Magic Device gives you that ability.

Derklord |
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You still need a 9th level spell slot to activate the 9th level Runestone of Power.
Ruenstones just don't grant spell slots, simple as that. They make you not expend a spell slot when casting a spell, but they're trigger activated - you need to be able to start the process of casting the spell, or you can't profit from a RoP. When a 20th level Sorcerer has used all their 9th level spell slots and then finds a 9th level RoP, they can't use it until the next day, either.

Claxon |

I'm with Meirril.
If you somehow find yourself being a level 20 commoner, the most prudent thing to do is retrain into some spellcasting class for a fee and some time, and not worrying about any of this silly shenanigans.
Honestly, the real answer is no one makes it to that high a level of commoner. At most you'd probably get to level 5 in any of the NPC classes before you start leveling in another class and converting those old NPC levels to the same.

blahpers |

I'm with Meirril.
If you somehow find yourself being a level 20 commoner, the most prudent thing to do is retrain into some spellcasting class for a fee and some time, and not worrying about any of this silly shenanigans.
Honestly, the real answer is no one makes it to that high a level of commoner. At most you'd probably get to level 5 in any of the NPC classes before you start leveling in another class and converting those old NPC levels to the same.
There are plenty of exceptions in Golarion. My favorite:
More generally, it seems like large town or city has one or two high-level NPC-class types. Definitely exceptional, but they're there.