I have a question surrounding the use of the conserving fusion and the injection class feature.
For reference, the fusion and relevant part of the Injection ability are listed below:
Conserving: Weapons with the conserving fusion preserve their ammunition and charges after a miss. When you miss with a ranged attack roll, your charge or ammunition is not consumed, as though the weapon had never been fired. This fusion does not prevent your weapon from malfunctioning or breaking as a consequence of your attack. Only weapons that use arrows, batteries, darts, flares, grenade arrows, mini-rockets, rounds, or scattergun shells as ammunition can benefit from a conserving fusion.
Injection: ...This preparation time includes only readying the compounds and chemicals you need to make your injections, and you decide the specific injection you create as part of the standard action you take to attack with it or inject a creature with it...
My question is: If the conserving fusion prevents you from using one of your daily uses of the injection class feature when you miss your target, are you locked into the decision to use that same injection when you attempt to do so again on the following round? Can you decide to use a different injection (such as switching to a restorative instead) on the next round?
RAW: it doesn't work with injections. A conserving weapon preserves charges or ammunitions, but injections are neither of them. So, you keep the dart but you lose the injection.
Even if you consider that injections are ammunitions, they are not on the list of valid ammunitions, so it shouldn't work.
This would be handy to know
RAW: it doesn't work with injections. A conserving weapon preserves charges or ammunitions, but injections are neither of them. So, you keep the dart but you lose the injection.
Even if you consider that injections are ammunitions, they are not on the list of valid ammunitions, so it shouldn't work.
There hasn't been any clarification on consumables loaded into darts and the conserving fusion, and I've seen rulings go both ways. I'd argue that the "as if the weapon had never been fired" is the key phrase that justifies it working to some degree.
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I think you get your dart and the contents of the dart back. A poison loaded into a dart wouldn't magically disappear if the dart was returned to you via the Conserving fusion, and neither would an injection.
There hasn't been any clarification on consumables loaded into darts and the conserving fusion, and I've seen rulings go both ways. I'd argue that the "as if the weapon had never been fired" is the key phrase that justifies it working to some degree.
It would be too strong with supercharge weapon. So I tend to disagree.
I think you get your dart and the contents of the dart back.
I was speaking of RAW. I don't know what RAI is in this case, but I think it needs a clarification: there was no injection when they released this fusion.
I think you get your dart and the contents of the dart back.I was speaking of RAW. I don't know what RAI is in this case, but I think it needs a clarification: there was no injection when they released this fusion.
But there were hideously expensive things you could load into darts. I'm quite sure the intent was to get those back with your dart if you missed.
I think you get your dart and the contents of the dart back.I was speaking of RAW. I don't know what RAI is in this case, but I think it needs a clarification: there was no injection when they released this fusion.
Medicinals, poisons, and serums were written at the same time as the the injecting weapons were and there hasn't been any clarification on those either.
I think having some clarification for a class that's specifically built around this kind of play is kinda important.
Raw is largely unhelpful as it changes depending on what you read and how you read it.
Logically, and I know that is always the wrong way to start game rules conversations, if the dart never hits its target and is magically transported back to the weapon that fired it as if it never fired then why would the liquid contained within disappear? it never leaves the dart if it never makes contact with its target.
Without the conserving fusion the dart would have missed and the dart & contents fly off into a wall or whatever. the contents aren't launched separately from the dart at any point other than impact so it would make no sense at all that they would also not be transported back with the dart as they never left it in the first place.
I understand that there is certainly ambiguity in the rules but without and clarification needed but its how I rule I would rule it until I see something stating otherwise.
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The image of a dart teleporting back while the healing serum flies through the battlefield is hilarious.
Even more if the liquid is the only thing not teleported back.
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Basically, we need confirmation on how consumables and injections interact with the fusion before we can say for sure. The topic has been brought up elsewhere in the forums (and discord) and without an official FAQ it's pretty up in the air.
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Thoughts on that angle?
I think your answer doesn't catch the real issue.
The way Conserving fusion is written specifically forbids to keep spells (Supercharge Weapon) and other class abilities. Injections are class abilities, and Conserving weapons would allow you to use them more often per day. So, the real question is: Do the conceptors think it's broken or not?Currently, the way it is written, you don't keep them. If I was DMing a SFS game, and without clarifications, injections would be expanded on a miss.
There is another issue with Injections. If I use an injection with a melee weapon and miss, is the Injection expanded?
The answer to both questions should be the same.
If you ask my opinion on that matter, I think Conserving should work and Injection should not be expanded on a melee miss. I'm just stating that, even if everyone wants it to work, RAW, it's not written that way, and a nit-picker DM may annoy you (in case of SFS games, for a home game, it's another issue).
Thoughts on that angle?
I think your answer doesn't catch the real issue.
The way Conserving fusion is written specifically forbids to keep spells (Supercharge Weapon) and other class abilities. Injections are class abilities, and Conserving weapons would allow you to use them more often per day. So, the real question is: Do the conceptors think it's broken or not?
Currently, the way it is written, you don't keep them. If I was DMing a SFS game, and without clarifications, injections would be expanded on a miss.There is another issue with Injections. If I use an injection with a melee weapon and miss, is the Injection expanded?
The answer to both questions should be the same.If you ask my opinion on that matter, I think Conserving should work and Injection should not be expanded on a melee miss. I'm just stating that, even if everyone wants it to work, RAW, it's not written that way, and a nit-picker DM may annoy you (in case of SFS games, for a home game, it's another issue).
I think most people agree that logically, it shouldn't be expended but the RAW doesn't make that clear. It sounds like there may be a FAQ coming to address some of the cost associated with medicinals and whatnot, so hopefully we get clarification soon.
I have a hard time believing they didn't consider the cost of consumables when building the conserving fusion and stating that it works with darts specifically.
I agree that in SFS, only the ammo itself is conserved as that seems to be the most fair reading from a consistency standpoint. Otherwise, I'd rule in favor of the players and say that the ammo and consumable are both conserved.
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Wow, I just realized they don't work.
You don't load the injection into a dart, you load the whole injection into the weapon. And injections are not a type of ammunition covered by the Conserving fusion.
Injections (EX) 1st Level
You carry a collection of catalysts, chemicals, compounds, and
specialized nanites, plus a small mixing apparatus and syringes, which
you can use to quickly fashion solutions that produce different effects
depending on the order in which you mix these ingredients. These
solutions are called injections, and you can use them to boost your allies
or hinder your foes.
A single injection is held in a physical syringe that you can wield
in one hand.
An injection can also be loaded into a weapon with
the injection weapon special property as a move action, and you can
deliver the injection with a normal attack with that weapon.
Conserving
Item Level 3
Weapons with the conserving fusion preserve their ammunition and charges after a miss. When you miss with a ranged attack roll, your charge or ammunition is not consumed, as though the weapon had never been fired. This fusion does not prevent your weapon from malfunctioning or breaking as a consequence of your attack. Only weapons that use arrows, batteries, darts, flares, grenade arrows, mini-rockets, rounds, or scattergun shells as ammunition can benefit from a conserving fusion.
Although the following ability contradicts that a little by stating you can choose not to cause damage, while injections don't cause damage at all (unless they were inside a dart!)
Injection Expert (EX) 1st Level
When you hit an ally with a weapon that has the injection weapon
special property, you can choose not to deal damage to that ally, though
that ally is still affected by the effects of the drug, poison, medicinal
compound, counteragent (see page 3), restorative (see page 4), or other
substance that was loaded into the injection weapon.
This might need a good once over before print.
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Might as well post Darts information here, to add to the conversation.
Darts
Level 1; Price 20
Damage —; Critical —
Capacity 25
Bulk L; Special —
Description
These light metal shafts each have a pointed tip and a reservoir to hold toxins or other
appropriate substances that are typically liquid or viscous. While most combatants rely
on darts to deliver toxins to enemies, particularly desperate or overworked field medics
sometimes employ darts to conveniently deliver antitoxins, healing serums, and other
beneficial drugs across a crowded battlefield. In these cases, medics often practice
to improve their aim to ensure that this strategy is effective when employed.
That's actually an interesting point. I did not realize they were distinct items.
I don't think the answers to one will get you answers to the other. The manufacturing ability to make regular ammo for the weapon what could theoretically have anything added to it isn't the same as the ability to return the dart that may or may not have stuff in it.
If you think about it, bringing back an injection dart with its contents isn't any more unreasonable than the same with a bullet & the propellant in the cartridge.
Creating a new standard cartridge though may be different from creating a dart with a counteragent which requires a specific class ability to make. Creating a dart with a nonmagical poison (assuming the cost is under 400 credits) seems more possible.
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If I were GMing for that I would say that manufacturing doesn't work that way. Sure, I'll accept the argument that it isn't unreasonable, considering conserving. However, both the counteragent/restorative and Healing Serum are non-standard ammunition. So much so that they aren't listed in the 'ammunition' category. While I appreciate the creative workaround, I wouldn't let it go at my table.
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I think conserving should work, and manufacturing shouldn't.
Manufacturing shouldn't because class feature injections aren't something you can make out of UPB.
Conserving should (but currently maybe doesn't) work:
* the lack of injections in a long list of conserved things seems like a technicality, because when Conserving was written the only way to inject someone with a substance was with a dart, which is covered by the fusion. This may need some patching in the text to clear up though.
* in terms of balance, melee injections don't seem to be expended on a miss; ranged injections are. Being able to play ranged is a big deal in the biohacker class design ("shoot your allies with buffs! shoot your enemies with debuffs! get better at small arms weapon specialization!"). But it's looking like you need maxed-out Dexterity to make Kinetic attacks reliable on a 3/4BAB chassis. So if Conserving doesn't work, you're forcing people to max out dexterity. If Conserving does work, they have a bit more slack because misses are not quite as bad. And I think it's desirable that classes don't force you to max out a (secondary) stat, but give some more freedom in which stat arrays are feasible.
Thoughts on that angle?
I think your answer doesn't catch the real issue.
The way Conserving fusion is written specifically forbids to keep spells (Supercharge Weapon) and other class abilities. Injections are class abilities, and Conserving weapons would allow you to use them more often per day. So, the real question is: Do the conceptors think it's broken or not?
Currently, the way it is written, you don't keep them. If I was DMing a SFS game, and without clarifications, injections would be expanded on a miss.There is another issue with Injections. If I use an injection with a melee weapon and miss, is the Injection expanded?
The answer to both questions should be the same.If you ask my opinion on that matter, I think Conserving should work and Injection should not be expanded on a melee miss. I'm just stating that, even if everyone wants it to work, RAW, it's not written that way, and a nit-picker DM may annoy you (in case of SFS games, for a home game, it's another issue).
One major difference between super charge weapon and injections of serums via dart would be that things like super charge weapon is for supercharge weapon it has a specific condition. If the next attack hits in this case the next hit failed so you lose the charge but you still get the ammo back. In the case of injection weapons the darts are made to hold a payload of liquid be it poison/serums/or bio hacker chemicals. You fill the physical dart with a substance it is designed to contain. It makes little sense why something that lets you preserve the ammunition would not preserve what is contained inside it. When you get a rocket back it is not missing its explosives or fuel.
The substances you are putting into those darts basically is good for 24 hours before it becomes inert so unlike some other similar weapon enhancing powers there is no real time limitation of if the thing is not used quickly it disperses.
Which leads to another question.
Can you take your syringe... and inject that stuff into a normal dart?
From how it is listed that sounds like exactly what you do when you prepare your daily syringes then you can either immediately inject those into darts to use in your dart weapons or hold off and do them when you need them. Seems a sensible way to put the chemicals into the darts anyway just have a lil sealing membrane that you put the injection into then when you pull it out its ready to go.
I think it also should be noted dart weapons fire darts. Syringes are not what is being fired. To use the injection with a dart weapon you use your syringe to load the darts payload container that is used to deliver poisons/serums/what not.
Honestly if they did not want the conversing to return missed healing serums fired via dart guns then it should have left off darts completly. The damage darts do is and always was secondary to the payload they can contain. If you just want to do damage there are better choices to use you use darts because of what you can load into them so conserving those loads is sensible. Honestly it seems less trouble believing the dart with contents teleports back to the weapon if missed than a bullet somehow unexplodes and rebuilds its powder and charge.
I think it also should be noted dart weapons fire darts. Syringes are not what is being fired. To use the injection with a dart weapon you use your syringe to load the darts payload container that is used to deliver poisons/serums/what not.
So you're arguing that its not a syringe, its just a liquid filled hollow container with a needle on the end of it full of a drug that the device injects into the target... but that its not a syringe.
I think it also should be noted dart weapons fire darts. Syringes are not what is being fired. To use the injection with a dart weapon you use your syringe to load the darts payload container that is used to deliver poisons/serums/what not.
So you're arguing that its not a syringe, its just a liquid filled hollow container with a needle on the end of it full of a drug that the device injects into the target... but that its not a syringe.
You are right it is the weapon dart ammunition. All of the dart weapons ammo with the injection capability have a reservoir for a chemical to be inserted into them. Just as modern dart guns are not just shooting random syringes at their targets they use a specific type of ammunition loaded with the chemical they are trying to deploy.
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Yeah I'm with kald on that. Dart guns fire darts, not syringes. And the biohacker's class feature isn't making you fire syringes out of a dart gun either;
A single injection is held in a physical syringe that you can wield in one hand. It is considered a consumable item with negligible bulk, with an item level equal to your biohacker level, hardness equal to your biohacker level, and 1 Hit Point. You must hit an unwilling creature with a melee attack to inject them with an injection, and an injection counts as a consumable basic melee weapon for this purpose. An injection can be injected into a willing or unconscious creature (or yourself) as a standard action, as long as the target is within your reach. An injection can also be loaded into a weapon with the injection weapon special property as a move action, and you can deliver the injection with a normal attack with that weapon. When you attack an ally with an injection loaded into a weapon that has the injection weapon special property, that ally is considered flat-footed against your attack.
You keep injections in syringes if you're going to stab people with them in melee, or load them into whatever ammo is used by an injection weapon for ranged delivery.
Darts
These light metal shafts each have a pointed tip and a reservoir to hold toxins or other appropriate substances that are typically liquid or viscous. While most combatants rely on darts to deliver toxins to enemies, particularly desperate or overworked field medics sometimes employ darts to conveniently deliver antitoxins, healing serums, and other beneficial drugs across a crowded battlefield. In these cases, medics often practice to improve their aim to ensure that this strategy is effective when employed.
The difference between that and a syringe is like that twix commercial with the phantom/spirit custodian/janitor and mortician undertaker talking about how different they are
Armory's dart cannons have usages of 5-10 darts per trigger pull. If you load them all with the same poison or pharmaceutical, do you get 5-10 hits of that substance for 1 damaging hit with the weapon?
RAW: you load Injections into weapons with the injection special property, and injections come in syringes.
RAI: you unload injections into darts or similar and then load them up in a weapon with the injection special property.
Either takes a move action.
Face it - the playtest doesn't even mention Darts as an ammo, it only talks about injection weapons.
And it literally says you load injections into weapons, and that injections come in syringes. It's right there, quoted twice in this thread already.
This will probably change in the COM book, but in the Playtest, it is what it is.