Psst. Hey you. Yeah you. You want the most broken Familiar ever? Enter this thread.

[Reksew_Trebla]

Human with Planar Heritage (Caypup).

Planar Heritage:

You can trace your ancestry to a type of native outsider, even though you yourself are otherwise fully human.

Prerequisite(s): Human.

Benefit(s): Choose one type of native outsider (such as ganzi).

You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose ganzi, you are considered both a human and a ganzi for the purposes of taking traits, meeting feat prerequisites, determining how spells and magic items affect you, and so on. You must have the requisite physical features to gain certain benefits, as determined by the GM (for example, you cannot gain feats that augment your tail’s abilities if you do not actually have a tail).

Special: You cannot select Planar Heritage if you already have an ability or feat (like Racial Heritage) that adjusts your heritage in this way.

Take a level 20 Wizard Human Planar Heritage (Caypup) Improved Familiar at level 7 and watch as you break the game.

[Leonardo Trancoso]

It is more easy a level 20 wizard take you as a familiar than you take him

[LordKailas]

Familiars wrote:

It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was.

Given that humans don't get racial HD, don't start with a BAB, save bonus, or skills. All you're left with is a 0 HD human with one bonus feat and unremarkable stats or abilities.

[Reksew_Trebla]

LordKailas wrote:

Familiars wrote:

It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was.

Given that humans don't get racial HD, don't start with a BAB, save bonus, or skills. All you're left with is a 0 HD human with one bonus feat and unremarkable stats or abilities.

No where does that say RACIAL HD, just HD, and a normal human has HD, so the familiar would retain that.

[LordKailas]

so.... how many HD does a "normal" human get?

edit: I found the following statement

humanoids wrote:

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are typically presented as 1st-level warriors, which means they have average combat ability and poor saving throws. Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type.

So, I guess the answer is 1 HD. So, I will revise my original statement.

You're left with a 1 HD human with one feat (since losing the heritage feat would make it an ineligible option) and unremarkable stats or abilities.

[Reksew_Trebla]

LordKailas wrote:

so.... how many HD does a "normal" human get?

Normal for a human is variable, ironically enough. But even if it is only 1, you can have them take that level in Druid, and gain an Animal Companion, which with Boon Companion, is a free 5th level Animal Companion, which is easily stronger than a normal Improved Familiar. If the human chose Huntmaster as one of their feats, then that is a level 6 Animal Companion, though limited to the choice of bird, dog, small cat, or horse.

[Meirril]

...when you get an Improved Familiar you get a typical member of that race, modified by feats you've taken. You don't get a special member of that race. If you could get any exceptional member you could literally take the herald of a god as a familiar.

[Reksew_Trebla]

Meirril wrote:

...when you get an Improved Familiar you get a typical member of that race, modified by feats you've taken. You don't get a special member of that race. If you could get any exceptional member you could literally take the herald of a god as a familiar.

Read the spoiler. I bolded the part that makes this work.

[blahpers]

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

Meirril wrote:

...when you get an Improved Familiar you get a typical member of that race, modified by feats you've taken. You don't get a special member of that race. If you could get any exceptional member you could literally take the herald of a god as a familiar.

Read the spoiler. I bolded the part that makes this work.

*sigh* No, it doesn't.

[captain yesterday]

How do you get a 20th level wizard as a familiar?

Please cite all pertinent rules used.

I'm genuinely curious.

[Reksew_Trebla]

captain yesterday wrote:

How do you get a 20th level wizard as a familiar?

Please cite all pertinent rules used.

I'm genuinely curious.

Improved Familiar has Caypup as an option. Planar Heritage I already explained. Caypups are Native Outsiders. I shouldn’t have to say anything more.

[captain yesterday]

How does the caypup get to 20th level wizard.

[Cavall]

This is more a great example of broken logic than of broken familiars.
It doesn't do what you think it does

[VoodistMonk]

Even IF your familiar was a human with Planar Heritage (Caypup) feat, how and where is it getting the levels of Wizard? How and where is it getting 20HD? Or am I not understanding this at all?

[captain yesterday]

Yes, that is what I'm curious about.

[awbattles]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Even IF your familiar was a human with Planar Heritage (Caypup) feat, how and where is it getting the levels of Wizard? How and where is it getting 20HD? Or am I not understanding this at all?

You understand it as well as any of us.

OP, you’d be better off trying to Baleful Polymorph a Great White Whale into a Viper, and take that as your familiar. Let it run around with 52 strength and 27 constitution. Poison with a fort save of 18, with a 25+your BAB to hit. At least that one doesn’t require trying to convince your GM that a familiar can have class levels.

[Melkiador]

I mean this doesn’t even kind of work. This is a non-thing. I can’t squint hard enough to make this look like a thing.

Now if you want a legal but questionable powerful improved familiar, then look at the small aether elemental and notice that it uses its master’s level for effects related to its hit dice.

[ShroudedInLight]

I mean, if someone wanted to take a 1st level Human as a Familiar at level 7 I would be ok with it.

Its like declaring that your familiar is a dude named steve you bought from an Asmodeus Cleric. I mean, sure. Why not?

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

dotting this thread so I have a good example of the difference between a munchkin and an optimizer for the future.

[Alphavoltario]

ShroudedInLight wrote:

I mean, if someone wanted to take a 1st level Human as a Familiar at level 7 I would be ok with it.

Its like declaring that your familiar is a dude named steve you bought from an Asmodeus Cleric. I mean, sure. Why not?

I mean... yeah? It would likely be a more thematic approach this way, but familiars and animal companions don't have class levels.

To discuss familiars a little better:
--->Familiars only have as many HD as their master; so if you're level 10 with 10 HD in [Insert Familiar Granting Class Here], your familiar has 10 HD.
--->Familiars have half the amount of HP as their master (until they don't; looking at you Figments). Well now that theoretical level 20 Wizard familiar you have is now just as squishy as they were at level 5... congratz.
--->Familiars share skill ranks (until they don't; i.e. Sages). This even on a level 1 Humanized Familiar is just fun... I mean... A lot of fun depending on your skill rank distribution.

If anyone has anything to add to this list feel free.

[deuxhero]

For what it's worth, there's a good number of PFS boons and at least one AP where it explicitly says if a PC takes Improved Familiar they can take a particular NPC of a species eligible for Improved Familiar. In-fact it's the only way to get most improved familiars in PFS. You can definitely bond with NPCs. These NPCs all have typical stats though.

Besides, even if it did work

Ultimate Campaign wrote:

Sentient Companions: a sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability. It won’t necessarily blindly follow a suicidal order, but it has your interests at heart and does what it can to keep you alive. Paladin bonded mounts, familiars, and cohorts fall into this category, and are usually player-controlled companions.

Hardly absolute command.

[LordKailas]

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

LordKailas wrote:

so.... how many HD does a "normal" human get?

Normal for a human is variable, ironically enough. But even if it is only 1, you can have them take that level in Druid, and gain an Animal Companion, which with Boon Companion, is a free 5th level Animal Companion, which is easily stronger than a normal Improved Familiar. If the human chose Huntmaster as one of their feats, then that is a level 6 Animal Companion, though limited to the choice of bird, dog, small cat, or horse.

Boon companion also doesn't work that way. If you have one level in druid and you take boon companion now you count as.... a level 1 druid for purposes of your animal companion since boon companion specifically can not provide a bonus that would make your effective druid level higher then your character level. boon companion is only useful if you've multi-classed or have taken an archetype that allows you to have more then one animal companion.

[Meirril]

So let me lay out what Reksew_Trebla seems to be too embarrassed to say: His idea is you play a Human with the Planar Heritage (Caypup) to Wizard 20. Then in your next game play a class that gets a familiar or take feats to give you a familiar. Now get an Improved Familiar at 7th level. Now insist that you can use your 20th level Wizard as that improved familiar since he is a Caypup which is a valid type of improved familiar.

I think I've already posted a reason why this doesn't work. I think several other people have posted reasons this doesn't work. I don't know any GM that would allow this to work, but I can imagine someone out there would be ok with it. Someone that likes sandbox games and messing with their players and thinks balance is a dirty word.

[Andostre]

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

I shouldn’t have to say anything more.

Why do you insist on saying that when people keep asking you for clarification? All you've done is post two or three rules/abilities and then you're assuming that people are going to make the same association that you are, even when they've stated that they don't see the association.

[Dave Justus]

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

dotting this thread so I have a good example of the difference between a munchkin and an optimizer for the future.

That isn't fair. Munchin's might break the game, but they follow the rules. I am not sure what this is.

[Dave Justus]

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

Take a level 20 Wizard Human Planar Heritage (Caypup) Improved Familiar at level 7 and watch as you break the game.

If you think you can add class levels to familiars at will, why do you think you need the whole 'human' thing via Planar Heritage in the first place?

Why not take your cat familiar, give it 20 levels of Sorcerer, 10 mythic tiers and maybe a couple templates as well all at first level?

You can't just do things. You have to follow the rules of the game.

[Val'bryn2]

It's wilfull avoidance of the rules. He forgets that only a normal, unmodified animal can be a familiar. Improved Familiar doesn't change that requirement, except in specific cases, so the whole thing falls apart with a basic reading of the rules.

[Brother Fen]

The thread title alone should be ban worthy.

[Claxon]

I'm trying to grasp the logic of how the conclusion was reached...and I'm simply can't do it.

I can't make the mental leaps big enough to come up with such misinterpretations of the rules.

[Val'bryn2]

It's not misinterpretation, it's flat out ignoring the rules.

[Ravingdork]

I'd rather have a homonculus.

It's strength is theoretically unlimited. All it takes is gold.

At 20th-level it could have the following:

439 total hit dice
+109 ability score increases (which could get you 117 Strength)
2,414 HP
Base Attack Bonus +439
Base Saving Throws 146 + modifications
Poison attack DC 229 (or sleep for 1 minute)
219 feats

That, to me, is the most broken "familiar" ever (though I wouldn't bother limiting its capabilities by making it a true familiar).

[Ryze Kuja]

If I were your GM, I'd pull you aside and ask why you hate the other players' enjoyment of the game so much that you'd actually create something like this.

And then I'd point out that having a level 20 wizard as an improved familiar at level 7 is not per the rules, nor the intent of the developers, so no :P

[Sandal Fury]

I'm almost embarrassed for you.

[captain yesterday]

Come on guys, lay off, if you don't have something positive to contribute just let it be.

[Cavall]

One could say the same for the thread itself.

[captain yesterday]

Then flag it and move on or ignore it, both of which are better options then piling on some kid on the autistic spectrum.

[Val'bryn2]

My arguments aren't on how it's hindering fun for the others, it's pointing out where it doesn't work in the rules.

[Slim Jim]

Dave Justus wrote:

Why not take your cat familiar, give it 20 levels of Sorcerer, 10 mythic tiers and maybe a couple templates as well all at first level?

My faerie dragon is actually a Great Wyrm; he's just slumming as a tiny creature right now for the AC size-buff.

[Kaouse]

Umm...Just take Leadership and get a level 17 Wizard?

[Ravingdork]

Kaouse wrote:

Umm...Just take Leadership and get a level 17 Wizard?

With his own homonculus familiar! >:D