Wanted to know which class is best suited for Goblins? And which ancestral fear do you like of there's in particular.
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Rogue or redeemer seem like the best picks for class IMO. Rogue has the strong dex focus, the charisma bump can be leveraged for deception and intimidate, both very fitting of the traditional goblin image and rather useful for rogues setting up sneak attacks. Skulking around in dark places and lashing out with ancestry-boosted dogslicers fits really well with rogue, and roguish skills like thievery and stealth fit in really well.
Redeemer is the other side of the coin, where you have the goblins that are trying to patch up the bad reputation (that they rightfully earned in many cases) by being morally upstanding and doing good wherever possible. Mechanically, the dex bump means every goblin paladin has the best stats for full plate for free (and can easily max out the other heavy armor options) while the charisma bump fuels their lay on hands and other powers. Horsechoppers give them an ancestrally thematic reach weapon, the wisdom penalty can be offset in a pinch by divine grace.
For their ancestral fear, I'm rather partial to the horse fear myself. Mostly because I don't trust horses much IRL.
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Somewhat amusingly: Clerics. See this thread for a lot of discussion about that.
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Goblins are actually a very well-rounded ancestry. Druid is the only class they don't do well, with literally everything else being at very least a decent pick for them. While I agree with Shroudb that goblins aren't the premier cleric ancestry, they are certainly a viable and respectable option. Getting dexterity as a fixed ability score bonus is really good, and frees you up to put the free ancestry boost anywhere you want. This pretty much allows goblins to do whatever you want them to, which is really nice.
In terms of classes they're specifically advantaged with, I'd say Sorcerer, Bard, and Paladin stand out. Dex/Cha is pretty much the ideal spread for Sorcerer and Bards, meaning you have a lot of freedom with your ancestry boosts rather than being locked into obligatory ones. Goblins are the only ancestry that can get a Str/Dex/Cha ability score boost, which is very useful for front-liner builds. As far as the Paladin goes, the goblin is the only non-human ancestry that is eligible for a Str/Cha ancestry boost combination. Weird as it may sound, this makes goblins one of the premier ancestry choices for paladins.
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Goblin is one of the top end races for sure. I don't put too much weight on the racial feats, "Burn it" is pretty good but I'd say "goblin song" is their best option. Many classes need a 1 action ability to round out their turn.
With dex as a pick, they essentially have a free stat pick for their 3rd racial stat bump. Since they aren't losing strength, they still have heavy martial options open as well. Druid and Cleric would have sacrifices of course, but I think they'd work well as a shifter druid.
They are ideal alchemists, bards, fighters, monks, paladins, rangers, rogues, sorcerers and wizards. If I had to pick a best class, it would be rogue or fighter with bard or sorcerer multiclass.
Their top competition is elves and humans, with half elf and halfling being the tier below them.
Their top competition is elves and humans, with half elf and halfling being the tier below them.
How are elves and humans top tier but half-elves are a tier below?
Being a half-elf is basically the same as being a versatile human who uses his bonus general feat on Adopted Ancestry (Elf), but with low-light vision and access to half-elf feats on top of it.
The half-elf feats are nothing special, but even with "only" access to both human and elven feats, I'd say half-elf is the strongest Ancestry (well, Heritage, technically) in PF2.
Goblin is one of the top end races for sure. I don't put too much weight on the racial feats, "Burn it" is pretty good but I'd say "goblin song" is their best option. Many classes need a 1 action ability to round out their turn.
With dex as a pick, they essentially have a free stat pick for their 3rd racial stat bump. Since they aren't losing strength, they still have heavy martial options open as well. Druid and Cleric would have sacrifices of course, but I think they'd work well as a shifter druid.They are ideal alchemists, bards, fighters, monks, paladins, rangers, rogues, sorcerers and wizards. If I had to pick a best class, it would be rogue or fighter with bard or sorcerer multiclass.
Their top competition is elves and humans, with half elf and halfling being the tier below them.
Hmm how come they make ideal wizards? Human and Elf seems a better pick for a Wizard no?
Hmm how come they make ideal wizards? Human and Elf seems a better pick for a Wizard no?
Wizard is actually pretty forgiving in terms of ancestry choice. So long as you can get a Dex/Int boost (which goblins can) then you're set for life.
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Obviously this is all personal opinion and is probably skewed toward how games I run and play in tend to go.
Their top competition is elves and humans, with half elf and halfling being the tier below them.How are elves and humans top tier but half-elves are a tier below?
Being a half-elf is basically the same as being a versatile human who uses his bonus general feat on Adopted Ancestry (Elf), but with low-light vision and access to half-elf feats on top of it.
The half-elf feats are nothing special, but even with "only" access to both human and elven feats, I'd say half-elf is the strongest Ancestry (well, Heritage, technically) in PF2.
Elves get a dex boost and can pick darkvision from a heritage, they also get a 5 foot speed boost. Half-elves were more competitive before the new heritage thing since they could still grab the double speed increase. Versatile heritage opens up some character options at first level that would typically need to wait till later, so they end up being slightly better than the slow elves with poor vision.
I guess I should clarify. The races who can excel at the most classes would be goblin of any heritage, cavern elf, and versatile human. Half elves and halflings are great, but their lack of darkvision keeps them off the top level. Versatile humans are up there solely for the ability to have early access to a wide variety of feats, and the assumption that anything added to boost flagging ancestries will boost them as well. The ability to play a caster with ranged spell at 1st level, or to grab a better cantrip as a divine caster, makes versatile human a consistently good choice.
Hmm how come they make ideal wizards? Human and Elf seems a better pick for a Wizard no?
I agree, those are the other strong picks for wizard. I think goblin edges them out due to burn it and goblin song. A single action ability is necessary for non-bard casters, and the equivalent of dangerous sorcery for fire spells, are both very good picks for a wizard. Darkvision is a bigger selling point though, and anything with darkvision and a dex bonus is going to be high on most class lists.
If there were ways to gain permanent darkvision, or low light vision was ever a superior choice, then the contest would be narrower.
Which heritage do you like on the Goblin?
well, greater googles of the night give permanent darkvision, and darkvision elixirs reach quite a long duration as well
Fair enough, I'd forgotten about the greater goggles. A level 10 item is pretty far into the game, but at least it isn't competing with runes for a 10th level pick.
Anything with a duration isn't reliable enough to compete with something permanent without metagame knowledge about how long an adventure is going to take, or when you'd want not to be spotted by the light of your torch. It's probably fine for more organized play though.
Which heritage do you like on the Goblin?
None of them are that great, but the fire and cold resist versions seem more useful. They have the advantage of not needing to choose between darkvision and something more flavorful, so I'd use that freedom to pick something fun.
Goblin is one of the top end races for sure. I don't put too much weight on the racial feats, "Burn it" is pretty good but I'd say "goblin song" is their best option. Many classes need a 1 action ability to round out their turn.
With dex as a pick, they essentially have a free stat pick for their 3rd racial stat bump. Since they aren't losing strength, they still have heavy martial options open as well. Druid and Cleric would have sacrifices of course, but I think they'd work well as a shifter druid.They are ideal alchemists, bards, fighters, monks, paladins, rangers, rogues, sorcerers and wizards. If I had to pick a best class, it would be rogue or fighter with bard or sorcerer multiclass.
Their top competition is elves and humans, with half elf and halfling being the tier below them.
Interesting, How exactly does Goblin Song work? Why is it so good?
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Interesting, How exactly does Goblin Song work? Why is it so good?Goblin is one of the top end races for sure. I don't put too much weight on the racial feats, "Burn it" is pretty good but I'd say "goblin song" is their best option. Many classes need a 1 action ability to round out their turn.
With dex as a pick, they essentially have a free stat pick for their 3rd racial stat bump. Since they aren't losing strength, they still have heavy martial options open as well. Druid and Cleric would have sacrifices of course, but I think they'd work well as a shifter druid.They are ideal alchemists, bards, fighters, monks, paladins, rangers, rogues, sorcerers and wizards. If I had to pick a best class, it would be rogue or fighter with bard or sorcerer multiclass.
Their top competition is elves and humans, with half elf and halfling being the tier below them.
It's not amazing, but filling out the third action for casters is a good goal if you want to make the best of their turn. It also makes scare to death builds slightly more efficient as you can drop the will saves of multiple targets with one action then kill a couple with two other actions. It ends up looking good only because it's on a high charisma race that's quite good for casters, and it's one of the few offensive ancestry feats that isn't weapon proficiency.
It's not amazing, but filling out the third action for casters is a good goal if you want to make the best of their turn. It also makes scare to death builds slightly more efficient as you can drop the will saves of multiple targets with one action then kill a couple with two other actions. It ends up looking good only because it's on a high charisma race that's quite good for casters, and it's one of the few offensive ancestry feats that isn't weapon proficiency.Interesting, How exactly does Goblin Song work? Why is it so good?Goblin is one of the top end races for sure. I don't put too much weight on the racial feats, "Burn it" is pretty good but I'd say "goblin song" is their best option. Many classes need a 1 action ability to round out their turn.
With dex as a pick, they essentially have a free stat pick for their 3rd racial stat bump. Since they aren't losing strength, they still have heavy martial options open as well. Druid and Cleric would have sacrifices of course, but I think they'd work well as a shifter druid.They are ideal alchemists, bards, fighters, monks, paladins, rangers, rogues, sorcerers and wizards. If I had to pick a best class, it would be rogue or fighter with bard or sorcerer multiclass.
Their top competition is elves and humans, with half elf and halfling being the tier below them.
This sounds intriguing! Sorry for the noobery but what are scare to death builds?
Calling it a build may be too much, but anyone who boosts charisma over other stats in order to get their intimidate as high as possible in order to get the best use out of the "scare to death" intimidate skill feat. There may be more to the build if versatile performance works in combat, but there's been some argument as to whether or not it does. If it can be used in combat, then grabbing bard dedication for versatile performance gets you another point to intimidate through virtuosic performer.
Normally you'd want to reduce their save DC by intimidating them first, but the song lets you target a group potentially reducing multiple targets' will saves.
Scare to Death is an at will death attack, so it's worth boosting at the cost of just skill feats.
Calling it a build may be too much, but anyone who boosts charisma over other stats in order to get their intimidate as high as possible in order to get the best use out of the "scare to death" intimidate skill feat. There may be more to the build if versatile performance works in combat, but there's been some argument as to whether or not it does. If it can be used in combat, then grabbing bard dedication for versatile performance gets you another point to intimidate through virtuosic performer.
Normally you'd want to reduce their save DC by intimidating them first, but the song lets you target a group potentially reducing multiple targets' will saves.
Scare to Death is an at will death attack, so it's worth boosting at the cost of just skill feats.
Just saw that level 15 feat, pretty cool I like the flavor. Do people make builds around this type of thing? Would this be something a Wizard could do with just an average Charisma score?
It's unfortunately just so late game, critical success would be great however being a Fort save how often would it ever land? A Will save would have been nice.
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Calling it a build may be too much, but anyone who boosts charisma over other stats in order to get their intimidate as high as possible in order to get the best use out of the "scare to death" intimidate skill feat. There may be more to the build if versatile performance works in combat, but there's been some argument as to whether or not it does. If it can be used in combat, then grabbing bard dedication for versatile performance gets you another point to intimidate through virtuosic performer.
Normally you'd want to reduce their save DC by intimidating them first, but the song lets you target a group potentially reducing multiple targets' will saves.
Scare to Death is an at will death attack, so it's worth boosting at the cost of just skill feats.
Just saw that level 15 feat, pretty cool I like the flavor. Do people make builds around this type of thing? Would this be something a Wizard could do with just an average Charisma score?
It's unfortunately just so late game, critical success would be great however being a Fort save how often would it ever land? A Will save would have been nice.
It's crit fishing with your spare action. It's worth spending your skill feats on, but it's not going to keep your character relevant all on its own. The -10 to hit on your third attack, and 2 action spell casting, both work together to make a single action aggressive actions very valuable so demoralize is already good. Scare to Death is just the next part.
If they're only dying if they roll 2 1's, then it's probably not worth it, but usually it is.
For a third action I currently have Shield. Is that respectable? Or Le Garbage?
For a third action I currently have Shield. Is that respectable? Or Le Garbage?
Somewhere in between.
The shield spell is actually pretty good if you're getting ganged up on by 3 or more enemies. The problem is that if you're not getting ganged up on, it's fundamentally a selfish use of your actions. Your team as a whole would be better off if you did something that helped everyone, not just yourself.
I wouldn't call shield garbage, but it's competing with several different things for that AC bump, it gives the same type of bonus you'd get from a regular shield, taking cover, or getting screening behind another party member. Its main value is the damage absorption, and once that's up your one action is gone for the combat.
Ohh, is the Shield spell better than a regular Shield for me?
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Ohh, is the Shield spell better than a regular Shield for me?
The shield spell has three key advantages over regular shields:
1) Doesn't take up your hand, allowing you to use it for whatever else you may want.
2) You don't need to take an action to draw and equip it at the start of battle.
3) No bulk or carrying capacity issues.
My personal feeling is that the shield spell is better than physical shields; I feel those three points of overhead are a bit too harsh for shields, and with mobility as free as it is there's really no such thing as a tank in PF2 since enemies will just walk around you to go for the more vulnerable party members.
Would a Goblin Cleric of Gorum work? I don't intend on having a High Wis, I do wish to have a high STR and CHA though. Or would I be better off going Human? I can't even find one slightly useful Ancestry feat as a Goblin :|
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Would a Goblin Cleric of Gorum work?
Yeah, Gorum is a great deity. d12 favored weapon, zeal domain, and true strike as a deity spell. Max out strength and go to town. Str/Dex/Cha is a great ability score spread. You'll take Dex up to 16 or 18 depending on what kind of armor you want to use, then continue investing in Str/Con/Wis/Cha for the rest of your career after that point.
As for Goblin ancestry feats, Goblin Song is okay for an at-will ability. Rough Rider is also pretty decent if you ever plan on using mounts. Burn It is a fine choice if you'll be using any source of fire damage. Beyond that, you probably want to pick up the Adopted Ancestry feat so open up your options since goblins don't have to much in the way of ancestry feats.
Would a Goblin Cleric of Gorum work?Yeah, Gorum is a great deity. d12 favored weapon, zeal domain, and true strike as a deity spell. Max out strength and go to town. Str/Dex/Cha is a great ability score spread. You'll take Dex up to 16 or 18 depending on what kind of armor you want to use, then continue investing in Str/Con/Wis/Cha for the rest of your career after that point.
As for Goblin ancestry feats, Goblin Song is okay for an at-will ability. Rough Rider is also pretty decent if you ever plan on using mounts. Burn It is a fine choice if you'll be using any source of fire damage. Beyond that, you probably want to pick up the Adopted Ancestry feat so open up your options since goblins don't have to much in the way of ancestry feats.
Great advice! Would having a 10 Con be too low? Or is it do-able?
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Great advice! Would having a 10 Con be too low? Or is it do-able?
You will definitely want the Toughness feat, and you'll want to start investing in Con at higher levels, but it should be fine start with 10 Con at 1st level play.