Evangelist - Class options by level


Rules Questions


So I'm working on something that uses Alchemist + Evangelist, and I ran into a slight issue with herolab. Namely I'd have figured that the Evangelist level from 2 and beyond would stack with alchemist for determining certain things, like your alchemist level for picking up discoveries. (It still lets me choose one every other level)

Right now I've got it at 4 alchemist 7 evangelist, but it only still counts me at a level 4 alchemist. Before I start slapping around herolab with code and adjustments, I want to check.. Is that how its suppose to be? Or should I be counted as a level 10 alchemist?


Yup, Evangelist increases everything (including extracts/discoveries/etc). Alchemist-4/Evangelist-7 would be treated as a 10th level alchemist ...

BUT ...

You can't take Evangelist till at least 6th level (check the prerequisites). Alchemist-5/Evangelist-6 would treat you as a 10th level Alchemist.

Also according to archivesofnethys.com (once again a great resource that's not always correct) Evangelist isn't legal for PFS. If that's what you're planning it might be worth checking.

There aren't many prestige classes that work well with Alchemists, but I do like the Master Chymist.

The Exchange

Evangelist is PFS legal, and AoN shows it that way. (The red circle around the Society logo on AoN does not mean “illegal,” it means “legal but with special rules for PFS.” You have to mouseover the circle to see the conditions.)

I think Mr. Charisma is right about why HeroLab is throwing an error. Try adding a level of alchemist (total 5) and see if your problems go away. Also make sure you have selected a deity to worship. If that doesn’t fix it... adjustments time!


Aligned Class wrote:

Aligned Class (Ex)

Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.

You only gain the class features of the class, you don't actually count as that level of the class.

So while an alchemist 4/evangelist 7 counts as a 10th level alchemist for the purposes of gaining alchemist class features, you only count as a 4th level alchemist for the purposes of pre-reqs.


I would interpret it as saying that for the purpose of gaining class features in your class, add aligned class levels to base class levels. Which would include meeting class level prereqs for class feature options.

As everything, the wording isn’t very good.

Scarab Sages

This is... a very interesting thread. I never noticed that particular distinction.

"She gains all the class features for this class"

"to determine what class features she gains"

"but gains all other class features of her aligned class"

The archives of nethys is the new pathfinder reference document. Under the alchemist entry there, the class chart is clearly underneath the class features header. That means level is a class feature, which means that aligned class will also add to your effective alchemist level.


Magicdealer wrote:

This is... a very interesting thread. I never noticed that particular distinction.

"She gains all the class features for this class"

"to determine what class features she gains"

"but gains all other class features of her aligned class"

The archives of nethys is the new pathfinder reference document. Under the alchemist entry there, the class chart is clearly underneath the class features header. That means level is a class feature, which means that aligned class will also add to your effective alchemist level.

I mean, if you look at it like that, then for each level they gain in evangelist, they gain one in alchemist.

This means they're no longer an alchemist 4/evangelist 7 with total level of 11, but instead an alchemist 10/evangelist 7 with a total level of 17. This means instead of 155,000xp for their next level, they need 1,300,000xp.

Also compare the AON Cleric Class to the legacy PRD cleric class hosted one by AON. You'll notice that the AON one is incorrect, the advancement chart shouldn't be under class features, instead it's under class skills and above class features.

This also makes sense, because if you gained the advancement chart as a class feature, any archetypes that replace class features and don't replace the chart would still grant you those class features since it's on the chart.


It’s also been ruled that class skills, whcich everyone has listed above class features, are a class feature. Which is important for multi archetype options.


The wording says they are adding the evangelist to the class not the other way around. I would say that means they count as going up in levels in that class for the purpose of qualifying for feats and abilities.

I do not see the conflict or issue here, other than the OP not qualified for the Prestige class in the start.


Cavall wrote:

The wording says they are adding the evangelist to the class not the other way around. I would say that means they count as going up in levels in that class for the purpose of qualifying for feats and abilities.

I do not see the conflict or issue here, other than the OP not qualified for the Prestige class in the start.

Quote:
She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains.

They add for the purposes of class features, not anything else.


Cavall wrote:

The wording says they are adding the evangelist to the class not the other way around. I would say that means they count as going up in levels in that class for the purpose of qualifying for feats and abilities.

I do not see the conflict or issue here, other than the OP not qualified for the Prestige class in the start.

i don’t really see support for evangelist pseudolevels qualifying you (meeting prereqs) for feats you don’t take through a class feature (e.g., fighter bonus feats), unless you buy the ‘class level is a class feature’ line of argument. Other than ‘i feel like that should work’, which I’m fine with.


willuwontu wrote:
Cavall wrote:

The wording says they are adding the evangelist to the class not the other way around. I would say that means they count as going up in levels in that class for the purpose of qualifying for feats and abilities.

I do not see the conflict or issue here, other than the OP not qualified for the Prestige class in the start.

Quote:
She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains.
They add for the purposes of class features, not anything else.

Again, to her class not the other way around. To me it says they qualify for class feat levels. And yes, to determine class abilities.

If you're a fighter 6 Evan 3 you're a fighter 8 to qualify for feats.

Scarab Sages

willuwontu wrote:


...
Also compare the AON Cleric Class to the legacy PRD cleric class hosted one by AON. You'll notice that the AON one is incorrect...

Actually, if you look in the book the alchemist released from, the advanced player's guide, you'll notice that the table is actually below class features there as well.


Cavall wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Cavall wrote:

The wording says they are adding the evangelist to the class not the other way around. I would say that means they count as going up in levels in that class for the purpose of qualifying for feats and abilities.

I do not see the conflict or issue here, other than the OP not qualified for the Prestige class in the start.

Quote:
She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains.
They add for the purposes of class features, not anything else.

Again, to her class not the other way around. To me it says they qualify for class feat levels. And yes, to determine class abilities.

If you're a fighter 6 Evan 3 you're a fighter 8 to qualify for feats.


Magicdealer wrote:
willuwontu wrote:


...
Also compare the AON Cleric Class to the legacy PRD cleric class hosted one by AON. You'll notice that the AON one is incorrect...
Actually, if you look in the book the alchemist released from, the advanced player's guide, you'll notice that the table is actually below class features there as well.

Correct, it's also similarly done in all the books classes are in with the table appearing after the class is introduced and class features have started appearing, and then on the legacy PRD the table is moved to above the class features. This is likely because the table is meant as a reference to class features and the levels you obtain them at along with relevant information , such as BAB and saves.

If level is a class feature, then my point of evangelist levels actually increasing the EXP you need to gain your next level of evangelist (or another class) is valid.

On a similar note, in the CRB all the classes appear under the Class Features header of the Barbarian. This must mean that they are all class features of the Barbarian using your logic.

Scarab Sages

My logic? You mean how things are actually listed? The table is beneath the class features header, which means it's a list of class features. Whether or not it's supposed to be? That's for the devs to address (or likely not address).

Thankfully, I don't see an xp chart under there so we're safe from actual xp scaling.

Remember this line? "She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class."

Well, here's some more interesting stuff about it. Hit dice are listed above the class feature header. Base attack bonus is only listed in the chart. saving throw bonuses are, again, only listed in the chart. Skill ranks also appear above the header.

That, 'all other class features' bit suggests that either all those things ARE class features, or the author didn't understand the difference and was attempting to create a blanket effect.

[Here's a thread](https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rilr&page=1?Skills-as-a-class-feature) debating what falls under class features and what doesn't.

There's also [this faq](https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9thg) about archetype stacking.

titled, "What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?", it lists "bardic performances, weapon training, list of bonus feats, and class skills.

From that faq we can surmise that all the class features of a class don't actually always appear under the class feature heading. Class skills, for example.


willuwontu wrote:
Cavall wrote:

The wording says they are adding the evangelist to the class not the other way around. I would say that means they count as going up in levels in that class for the purpose of qualifying for feats and abilities.

I do not see the conflict or issue here, other than the OP not qualified for the Prestige class in the start.

Quote:
She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains.
They add for the purposes of class features, not anything else.

All aspects of a class are class features.


[url=http://aonprd.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Evangelist] wrote:
She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.

So you don't get Hit Dice, BAB, Saving Throws or Skill Ranks from your old class, but you do get everything else.

You don't get your favoured class bonus - Prestige classes don't get FCB without specific investment.

You DO qualify for feats (eg. Fighter-5/Evangelist-4 can take Greater Weapon Focus).

This class is designed for the 3/4-BAB, 6/9-casting classes who don't get as much from a Full-BAB prestige class and don't get as much from a full-casting prestige class. The idea is that everything continues, so that they're still effectively playing their base class, but with a religious theme and a few bonus abilities that fit the theme.

It was specifically written to be all-encompassing. So encompass all.


Magicdealer wrote:

My logic? You mean how things are actually listed? The table is beneath the class features header, which means it's a list of class features. Whether or not it's supposed to be? That's for the devs to address (or likely not address).

Thankfully, I don't see an xp chart under there so we're safe from actual xp scaling.

Remember this line? "She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class."

Well, here's some more interesting stuff about it. Hit dice are listed above the class feature header. Base attack bonus is only listed in the chart. saving throw bonuses are, again, only listed in the chart. Skill ranks also appear above the header.

That, 'all other class features' bit suggests that either all those things ARE class features, or the author didn't understand the difference and was attempting to create a blanket effect.

[Here's a thread](https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rilr&page=1?Skills-as-a-class-feature) debating what falls under class features and what doesn't.

There's also [this faq](https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9thg) about archetype stacking.

titled, "What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?", it lists "bardic performances, weapon training, list of bonus feats, and class skills.

From that faq we can surmise that all the class features of a class don't actually always appear under the class feature heading. Class skills, for example.

Off Topic:
Links are done like this on the forums, [ url=link]link Text[/url]. Remove the space after the first bracket. Reddit's link text way of [link text](link) doesn't work here.

.

If level is a class feature, then since you gain that class feature, you increase your total character level. Characters advance in level according to Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses. This would would mean that you need a higher xp now to go up levels, not having an xp table in the class doesn't change this (otherwise, since there is no xp table in the class, you don't need any xp to gain levels in the class in the first place, you can just pick an arbitrary level).

Having an effective higher level for the purposes of XP required is the only way you count as a higher level in the aligned class RAW. Otherwise it's simply a houserule.


MrCharisma wrote:
Evangelist wrote:
She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
So you don't get Hit Dice, BAB, Saving Throws or Skill Ranks from your old class, but you do get everything else.

Correct, you get all other class features.

Quote:
You don't get your favoured class bonus - Prestige classes don't get FCB without specific investment.

Correct (although you could argue if levels are a class feature, then since you gain levels you should gain the FCB for them).

Quote:
You DO qualify for feats (eg. Fighter-5/Evangelist-4 can take Greater Weapon Focus).

Incorrect, you gain class features, not levels (unless they are a class feature, in which case ... see above post). This means you are still a fighter 4 for selecting feats gained from HD or feats given by your class that say you need to meet the prerequisites of (If it's like monk and you gain it without needing to meet the prereqs, you're fine). A fighter 5/Evangelist 4 only counts as a fighter 5 for the purposes of prerequisites that are not class features.

Quote:

This class is designed for the 3/4-BAB, 6/9-casting classes who don't get as much from a Full-BAB prestige class and don't get as much from a full-casting prestige class. The idea is that everything continues, so that they're still effectively playing their base class, but with a religious theme and a few bonus abilities that fit the theme.

It was specifically written to be all-encompassing. So encompass all.

You mean early access to divine boons, a bonus to their AC, free class skills and languages, and a transformation form that isn't a polymorph effect that also increases an ability score while giving another bonus isn't enough for those classes while only losing out on one effective level of their class features?

The Exchange

I think this is the first time that I’ve heard the argument that Aligned Class levels don’t “count” for Class levels.

So if I’m understanding your argument correctly a sorcerer 5/evangelist 7 would only have 2nd level spells? Since under this interpretation the Aligned Class levels don’t give a higher sorcerer level she is still only a 5th level sorcerer?


Belafon wrote:

I think this is the first time that I’ve heard the argument that Aligned Class levels don’t “count” for Class levels.

So if I’m understanding your argument correctly a sorcerer 5/evangelist 7 would only have 2nd level spells? Since under this interpretation the Aligned Class levels don’t give a higher sorcerer level she is still only a 5th level sorcerer?

That is incorrect. My argument is that the sorcerer only counts as a 5th level sorcerer for the purposes of feats and prerequisites.

Evangelist wrote:

Aligned Class (Ex)

Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.

Spells are a class feature of the sorcerer, you gain spells known, caster level, spell slots, bloodline powers, etc. as if you were a sorc of that adjusted level, since they are class features.

This interaction admittedly doesn't affect that much, as most things are gated using prerequisites of class features, skills, or BAB. Using the Fighter 5/evangelist 4 from earlier, you wouldn't be able to take Greater Weapon Focus as it requires Fighter 8, and you only count as a 5th level fighter.

The Exchange

willuwontu wrote:
Spells are a class feature of the sorcerer, you gain spells known, caster level, spell slots, bloodline powers, etc. as if you were a sorc of that adjusted level, since they are class features.

Hold on, earlier you said

willuwontu wrote:
So while an alchemist 4/evangelist 7 counts as a 10th level alchemist for the purposes of gaining alchemist class features, you only count as a 4th level alchemist for the purposes of pre-reqs.

Discoveries are a class feature of the alchemist, just like spells are a class feature of the sorcerer. But you are saying that a sorcerer 5/evangelist 6 counts as a 10th level sorcerer for purposes of learning cone of cold (a 5th level spell, which requires a sorcerer level of 10) but an alchemist 5/evangelist 6 does not count as a 10th level alchemist for purposes of learning sticky bomb (which requires an alchemist level of 10).

Your reading of the Aligned Class feature is extremely tortuous and creates all kinds of edge cases as opposed to the more plain-language reading of "it's just like you gained a level in the aligned class, except you don't get the following four things: Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throws, and skill ranks."


Belafon wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Spells are a class feature of the sorcerer, you gain spells known, caster level, spell slots, bloodline powers, etc. as if you were a sorc of that adjusted level, since they are class features.

Hold on, earlier you said

willuwontu wrote:
So while an alchemist 4/evangelist 7 counts as a 10th level alchemist for the purposes of gaining alchemist class features, you only count as a 4th level alchemist for the purposes of pre-reqs.
Discoveries are a class feature of the alchemist, just like spells are a class feature of the sorcerer. But you are saying that a sorcerer 5/evangelist 6 counts as a 10th level sorcerer for purposes of learning cone of cold (a 5th level spell, which requires a sorcerer level of 10) but an alchemist 5/evangelist 6 does not count as a 10th level alchemist for purposes of learning sticky bomb (which requires an alchemist level of 10).

This is correct, the ability to choose a discovery is the class feature, with the options being limited by your number of levels in alchemist, otherwise I could select the sticky bomb discovery at level 2 of alchemist. The spells known ability of a sorcerer is granted by their spellcasting class feature, and the thing that gates spells is not class levels, but the ability to know spells of that level (which the spellcasting class feature grants) and cast them.

Since discoveries are a class feature, one could argue that you do count as alchemist 10 for them, however if there were a general feat that required 10 levels of alchemist, you would not qualify, as it's not a class feature.

Quote:
Your reading of the Aligned Class feature is extremely tortuous and creates all kinds of edge cases as opposed to the more plain-language reading of "it's just like you gained a level in the aligned class, except you don't get the following four things: Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throws, and skill ranks."

I agree, that's why in my campaigns I run it as they have that effective level of the class. This does not change the RAW of the matter though, which is why this is the rules questions forum, not advice, homebrew or general.


Yeah I'm MASSIVELY sure you're wrong about all that and are overthinking it.

Your last post sealed it to 100% sure.


willuwontu wrote:
Belafon wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Spells are a class feature of the sorcerer, you gain spells known, caster level, spell slots, bloodline powers, etc. as if you were a sorc of that adjusted level, since they are class features.

Hold on, earlier you said

willuwontu wrote:
So while an alchemist 4/evangelist 7 counts as a 10th level alchemist for the purposes of gaining alchemist class features, you only count as a 4th level alchemist for the purposes of pre-reqs.
Discoveries are a class feature of the alchemist, just like spells are a class feature of the sorcerer. But you are saying that a sorcerer 5/evangelist 6 counts as a 10th level sorcerer for purposes of learning cone of cold (a 5th level spell, which requires a sorcerer level of 10) but an alchemist 5/evangelist 6 does not count as a 10th level alchemist for purposes of learning sticky bomb (which requires an alchemist level of 10).

This is correct, the ability to choose a discovery is the class feature, with the options being limited by your number of levels in alchemist, otherwise I could select the sticky bomb discovery at level 2 of alchemist. The spells known ability of a sorcerer is granted by their spellcasting class feature, and the thing that gates spells is not class levels, but the ability to know spells of that level (which the spellcasting class feature grants) and cast them.

Since discoveries are a class feature, one could argue that you do count as alchemist 10 for them, however if there were a general feat that required 10 levels of alchemist, you would not qualify, as it's not a class feature.

Quote:
Your reading of the Aligned Class feature is extremely tortuous and creates all kinds of edge cases as opposed to the more plain-language reading of "it's just like you gained a level in the aligned class, except you don't get the following four things: Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throws, and skill ranks."
I agree, that's why in my campaigns I run it as they...

This is 100% wrong.

As Cavall said, your reading reading requires convoluted logic and creates a huge number of edge cases. The simpler, and more logical reading is to simply count evangelist levels as levels of the base class except where otherwise specified. No edge cases, no convoluted logic, everything plays nice together.


Sweet, so magus/evangelists don't gain additional spell levels and slots because "spells" is a class feature and they already gained the "spells" class feature at 1st level? Oracle/evangelists don't gain additional reveleations because "revelation" is a class feature and they already gained it at 1st level? Fighter/evangelists who already have weapon training solely via fighter levels don't gain additional weapon training bonuses because etc.?

Yeah, that doesn't sound right at all. Are there any Paizo-printed examples of an evangelist NPC?


willuwontu wrote:
<Lots of stuff>

The problem I have with your reading is that you're saying that the caster level increases but the level doesn't.

I did a search on Wizard and Sorcerer, and nowhere in their "class features" did it say that caster level was a class feature (This was in no way a thorough search, so I could be wrong - It shouldn't matter though, keep reading). Does this mean that a wizard-5/evangelist-10 would be casting 7th level spells as a 5th level caster?

Then you look at a class like the alchemist:

ALCHEMIST wrote:
Extracts are the most varied of the three. In many ways, they behave like spells in potion form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by effects like dispel magic using the alchemist’s level as the caster level. Unlike potions, though, extracts can have powerful effects and duplicate spells that a potion normally could not.

So now it doesn't matter about whether Wizards or Sorcerers keep their caster level, because apparently the Alchemist doesn't (and again, Evangelist was designed to be an alternative to Exalted or Sentinel that works for the 3/4-BAB, 6/9-casters - like the Alchemist).

The Devs have said MANY times that if there's a way it obviously works and a way it obviously doesn't then the one that works is the way to go.


Buncha People wrote:
Stuff

*raises hands*

Okay, okay I yield.

blahpers wrote:
Yeah, that doesn't sound right at all. Are there any Paizo-printed examples of an evangelist NPC?

This made me curious, so I searched on AON, apparently there are not any.

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