Corrupt Water & Bag of Holding

[Cloudyshine]

A black dragon can ruin any liquids in a 10ft. cube, including potions. But if they’re in a bag of holding they’re on another plane so they would be unaffected, correct?

[blahpers]

Depends on whether the area effect can travel through the bag, I guess. I'd say they'd be fine as I don't want to work out how to map a 10' cube to a region connected to an extradimensional space.

[Meirril]

If the bag is open, they aren't safe. If it is closed, the contents should be safe.

Actually you need line of effect for any ability. You can argue that you only need line of effect to the potion/water skin, but even a normal bag/backpack/chest should protect its contents when closed.

[Dave Justus]

Actually the ability is up to 10 cubic feet of still water, not all liquids in a 10' cube. The range of the ability is the dragons aura.

"The ability spoils liquids containing water. Liquid-based magic items (such as potions) and items in a creature’s possession must succeed on a Will save (DC equal to the dragon’s frightful presence) or become ruined. "

No, pretty much anything that would be a possession and liquid based is going to be in a container of some sort. A potion would normally be closed up in a vial but the ability strongly implies that could be effected. I would conclude that the critical 'line of effect' is to the owner, not to the liquid. Similar to how line of effect to a creature doesn't fail if the creature is wearing platemail (or even a space suit).

So if it is in your possession, it would seem to me it has to make a save.

[Cloudyshine]

Yeah the 10 cubic feet clarification is true.

But how does it affect potions that are not on this plane of existence? I agree that a normal closed bag should not protect the contents because of the wording of the ability, but a bag of holding stores them on a separate plane, so if it's closed there should be no way for the ability to reach the potions on the other plane.

[Dave Justus]

By the rules, 'non-dimensional' or 'extra dimensional' are never defined as taking things to a separate plane. Rather they 'create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension.'

As far as I can tell, the items are where they are (i.e. still in your square/on your person) even though the 'space' they are occupying is artificial.

Note that a bag of holding doesn't function in a Rope Trick (another extra dimensional space but one that specifically blocks effects) but it functions just fine on other planes, including ethereal and astral. It certainly isn't planar travel.

Nothing in the rules suggests that a bag of holding blocks effects any more (or less) than a regular bag would. Just because it is bigger on the inside doesn't mean it prevents effects.

(Despite the rules as I understand them I sympathize with your position and will grant you a 'makes sense' feel to it, and I might rule that way in a home game, but strictly speaking I am pretty sure the rules are against that here)

[Magicdealer]

If the bag is closed, then there's no line of effect to liquids inside the bag of holding. The bag itself blocks the effect.

[Azothath]

the contents of the bag are generally protected as it is a different dimension, similar to Rope Trick when open or shut (non-dimensional implies things can't breathe etc as where a space with dimension has air). Secret Chest is the spell used to create the bag which implies the contents are in a pocket dimension on the ethereal plane. The item is an old classic and there's a long history on how GM's interpret the item (in various ways).

[Cevah]

The way I see it, effects cannot cross the opening of the bag. So even an open bag with a potion inside is safe.

Remember, you can place a 20' pole into the 2'*4' bag. This is because there is no spacial definition within the bag. As soon as the effect would cross the opening, it must cross an indefinite distance to reach the potion. Therefore, the potion is beyond the reach of the effect.

/cevah

[blahpers]

Magicdealer wrote:

If the bag is closed, then there's no line of effect to liquids inside the bag of holding. The bag itself blocks the effect.

That'd make it pretty difficult to affect potions, which are specifically called out in the ability description but generally occupy vials or other containers.

[Azothath]

the game has odd ideas about possession(having something or more specifically being an attended object). I'd refer you to French law for some parallel concepts. Basically this is a game and fine details are usually up to your GM.

Line of Effect is usually clearer but again when you start to get into the details the descriptive nature of the game breaks down.

[Magicdealer]

"Once per day an adult or older black dragon can stagnate 10 cubic feet of still water, making it foul and unable to support water-breathing life. The ability spoils liquids containing water. Liquid-based magic items (such as potions) and items in a creature’s possession must succeed on a Will save (DC equal to the dragon’s frightful presence) or become ruined. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. Its range is equal to that of the dragon’s frightful presence."

As you said, the ability specifically mentions that "liquid based magic items (potions included) are normally affected by it, so the effect appears to consider the potion container part of the potion.

However if the effect is prevented from coming into contact with the potion (container and all) in the first place, such as the bag being closed, then it's blocked.

Speaking about bags of holding specifically, the item doesn't have any specific rules about its contents that would suggest treating it differently for line of effect than a non-magical bag. Treating it as such, you should be able to open it and see all the items you've put inside it (or at least those on top). Certainly, nothing in the (limited) content I could find about extradimensional spaces would change that. I don't see any mention that an extradimensional space by itself blocks line of effect, line of sight, or anything along those lines.

[Azothath]

scroll up for a link to Rope Trick. A legacy spell from AD&D and DnD3.5.

for the history of it...

AD&D Rope Trick:

Rope Trick (Alteration)
Level: 2 Components: V, S, M Range: Touch Casting Time: 2 segments Duration: 2 turns/level Saving Throw: None Area of Effect: Special
Explanation/Description: When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5' to 30' in length, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole is hanging perpendicular, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened in an extra-dimensional space, and the spell caster and up to five others can climb up the rope and disappear into this place of safety where no creature can find them. The rope cannot be taken into the extra-dimensional space if six persons have climbed it, but otherwise it can be pulled up. Otherwise, the rope simply hangs in air, and will stay there unless removed by some creature. The persons in the extra-dimensional space must climb down the rope prior to the expiration of the spell duration, or else they are dropped from the height to which they originally climbed when the effect of the spell wears out. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. Note that the Rope Trick spell allows climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the rope's upper end, which is in an extra-dimensional space. The material components of this spell are powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment.

AD&D Bag of Holding:

Bag of Holding: As with other magic bags, this one appears to be a common cloth sack of about 2' X 4' size. The bag of holding opens into a non-dimensional space, and its inside is larger than its outside dimensions. Regardless of what is put into this item, the bag of holding always weighs a fixed amount. This weight, the bag's weight limit in contents, and its volume content are dependent upon its quality as shown below:
Dice, Weight(of bag), Weight limit, Volume limit(cu ft)
01 -30,  15,  250,  30
31 -70,  15,  500,  70
71 -90,  35,  1000,  150
91 -00,  60,  1500,  250

if overloaded, or sharp objects are placed within so as to pierce it, the bag will rupture and be ruined, and the contents will be lost forever on the vortices of nilspace.