Liberator and Channel Life problems: now with more mechanics and less code of conduct

[Colette Brunel]

Let us try this again with more of a mechanical focus.

The liberator's Liberating Step is not that good. Grab is a separate action, and Improved Grab is a separate free action, and thus it is impossible to use Liberating Step to reduce damage while simultaneously responding to an established Grab or Grapple. Either the liberator responds to the attack and reduces the damage, or the liberator responds to the Grab or Improved Grab and helps the ally escape, but not both. On top of all this, the line, "Finally, if the ally can move, they can Step as a free action, even if the ally didn’t have any hindrance to escape from" is unclear on whether or not it applies in response to an attack, or only in response to a Grab or Grapple.

Defenders and redeemers are good and reasonably balanced. Retributive Strike packs a strong punishment, but it generally calls for a reach weapon. Glimpse of Redemption is less situational and does not call for a reach weapon, but it is a bit weaker, especially against enemies who can bypass enfeebelement by tossing out spells and special abilities instead.

But I worry that paladins are a little too good on a certain point: Channel Life, a 4th-level feat.

Previously, when the multiclass archetype document landed, we had bards and sorcerers taking Paladin Dedication, Healing Touch, Basic Benediction (Deity's Domain), and Advanced Benediction (Channel Life) by 8th level, because 3 + Charisma modifier uses of max-level heal per day is seriously strong.

As of update 1.6, bards and sorcerers can still do exactly that, except that the four-feat investment is even better now, because Channel Life's heal no longer calls for somatic components, and the final version of the game will presumably allow Glimpse of Redemption in place of Retributive Strike for Paladin Redemption. Furthermore, since clerics have had their channel energy pools lowered, even clerics want to make this four-feat investment and earn that sweet, sweet Advanced Benediction (Channel Life).

Also in update 1.6, paladins themselves become the premier combatants by 4th level. They can take Deity's Domain at 1st and Channel Life at 4th, and just like that, they have 3 + Charisma modifier uses of max-level heal per day. I would go so far as to say that defender and redeemer paladins are the strongest combat class in the game by 4th level, simply because they can whack enemies all day with hard-hitting attacks, but also use the game's most powerful and reliable combat spell, heal. That is some strong stuff.

Channel Life could use a change. Yes, I know that Paizo is fixing powers for the final release (which we will never get to playtest), and I am pointing this out precisely so that Paizo knows to watch out for the power that is Channel Life.

[GM OfAnything]

Thank you for reposting this. I do think the mechanics are interesting and worth discussing.

Colette Brunel wrote:

Grab is a separate action, and Improved Grab is a separate free action, and thus it is impossible to use Liberating Step to reduce damage while simultaneously responding to an established Grab or Grapple. Either the liberator responds to the attack and reduces the damage, or the liberator responds to the Grab or Improved Grab and helps the ally escape, but not both.

I don't see this as a bad thing. Grab is a very powerful action that often leads to a lot of hurt. Giving allies a liberating command is a powerful defensive tool in its own right, and a free Step after is icing on that cake.

However, not every enemy is going to use Grab or Grapple tactics. The damage reduction is consolation prize for those fights.

Quote:

On top of all this, the line, "Finally, if the ally can move, they can Step as a free action, even if the ally didn’t have any hindrance to escape from" is unclear on whether or not it applies in response to an attack, or only in response to a Grab or Grapple.

I'm not sure what is unclear here. If the ally is capable of moving, they can Step as a free action. Nothing in the ability is conditional on the trigger being a Grab or Grapple rather than an attack.

Quote:

the rest

Channel Life does look very powerful right now. I hope they keep an eye on it.

[Derry L. Zimeye]

Doesn't the Liberator allow you to step away after being attacked? For example, Bob slashes Bill with a sword- but Franco the Liberator uses Liberating Step, reduces damage, and allows for Bill to immediately step away, making Bob need to burn an action to step up to Bill next turn in order to continue attacking. While offensively, it's not as powerful, it's still a premier defensive ability- which makes sense for the Liberator's focus on aiding the downtrodden versus the other two focusing on Divine Justice and Redemption. That's just how I see it, though!

[Colette Brunel]

It seems ambiguous to me as to whether or not the Step applies on an attack, given that Liberating Step is formatted as a single chunky block rather than broken up into paragraphs.

[shroudb]

Colette Brunel wrote:

It seems ambiguous to me as to whether or not the Step applies on an attack, given that Liberating Step is formatted as a single chunky block rather than broken up into paragraphs.

I fail to see why it looks ambiguous at all.

You use the ability, if the ally can move, he steps.

Grab has nothing to do with it.

[Derry L. Zimeye]

Colette Brunel wrote:

It seems ambiguous to me as to whether or not the Step applies on an attack, given that Liberating Step is formatted as a single chunky block rather than broken up into paragraphs.

But like. That's the first thing it says. Right?

[Colette Brunel]

Quote:

They can either attempt a new saving throw against any one such effect that had a saving throw, or as a free action they can attempt to Break Free or Escape from any one effect that allows such attempts. Finally, if the ally can move, they can Step as a free action, even if the ally didn’t have any hindrance to escape from.

The way it is worded suggests that the Step can happen only if a Break Free or Escape is involved.

This can be rectified immediately simply by inserting a line break in between "attempts" and "Finally."

[Derry L. Zimeye]

Colette Brunel wrote:

The way it is worded suggests that the Step can happen only if a Break Free or Escape is involved.

Quote:

Trigger: An enemy attacks, Grabs, or Grapples one of your allies or a creature that’s friendly to you.

I really don't see what's complicated, the way I'm reading it is "If you're being grabbed or grappled, you can break away too", because that's necessary FOR a step away

[tmncx0]

You aren’t even quoting the entire ability text. If you read the paragraph as a whole, an attack is not never excluded from the clause of escaping from hindering effects like you’re implying.

Update 1.6 p17 wrote:

After suffering the effects of the attack, Grab, or Grapple, the ally can attempt to break free of effects entangling, grabbing, immobilizing, or restraining them. They can either attempt a new saving throw against any one such effect that had a saving throw, or as a free action they can attempt to Break Free or Escape from any one effect that allows such attempts. Finally, if the ally can move, they can Step as a free action, even if the ally didn’t have any hindrance to escape from.

I can’t see where you’re getting that attacks are excluded from any clause here, the text explicitly says that you may attempt the escape even if you only suffered an attack - and not a Grab or Grapple - this also allows the ally to escape or save from other effects that are restraining them that were not caused by the triggering attack.

Then, the final sentence stipulates that the ally may always take a step even if there were no saving throws or escape attempts due to the secondary effect. Again, the first sentence of the quoted text means that the following text applies to all triggering attacks, Grabs, and Grapples.

[Colette Brunel]

Here, let us make the ability clearer with a line break.

Quote:

After suffering the effects of the attack, Grab, or Grapple, the ally can attempt to break free of effects entangling, grabbing, immobilizing, or restraining them. They can either attempt a new saving throw against any one such effect that had a saving throw, or as a free action they can attempt to Break Free or Escape from any one effect that allows such attempts.

Finally, if the ally can move, they can Step as a free action, even if the ally didn’t have any hindrance to escape from.

There. That is all it needs for clarity.

[GM OfAnything]

That line break doesn't change the meaning of the ability at all, but it does look better.

[Dire Ursus]

Yeah I think you might be the only one that felt that was unclear Colette.

[Paradozen]

Does liberating step work on attacks like constrict? Like, if an ally was constricted, could the liberator use liberating step to give the resistance, escape attempt, and step all at once?

[MaxAstro]

As written, no, because Constrict is not an attack (no roll), Grab, or Grapple action. I definitely think Constrict deserves to be added to the list, though.

[GM OfAnything]

I wouldn't add Contrict to the list. I think it would nullify too much of a monster's threat. Liberating Step is still very good providing either resistance or an escape attempt.

[Dracala]

Anyone have a link to that "multiclass archetype document" the OP mentioned? I went looking through the Blogs and couldn't find it.

[MaxAstro]

https://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest#downloads

Scroll down and find "Multiclass Archetype Updates".

[Dracala]

Thank you

[Dasrak]

The problem with the Channel Life power goes beyond just being more potent than other spell point abilities. The Heal spell is also pretty much an ideal effect coming from spell points. One of the big problems that spell point powers have is that you don't have too many of them, so you're often stuck in situations where your powers just aren't useful. I've had sessions where a character will be completely depleted of spell slots but still have all their spell points. So having a power that's general-purpose and usually useful is incredibly helpful... and restoring hit points is something that's pretty much guaranteed to come up. So even if it weren't overpowering compared to the other options, the actual effect it brings to the table is pretty much exactly what you're looking for in a spell point power.

[shroudb]

Dasrak wrote:

The problem with the Channel Life power goes beyond just being more potent than other spell point abilities. The Heal spell is also pretty much an ideal effect coming from spell points. One of the big problems that spell point powers have is that you don't have too many of them, so you're often stuck in situations where your powers just aren't useful. I've had sessions where a character will be completely depleted of spell slots but still have all their spell points. So having a power that's general-purpose and usually useful is incredibly helpful... and restoring hit points is something that's pretty much guaranteed to come up. So even if it weren't overpowering compared to the other options, the actual effect it brings to the table is pretty much exactly what you're looking for in a spell point power.

That hasn't happen to us at all, what class was it that didn't use its powers?

I'm guessing wizard? Only those seem likely to suffer from that imo.

Exluding wizard, all others seem to have universally useful powers like Ki strike/wind step, inspire heroics/lingering, zeal/heal/etc domain, Arcane boost/natural attacks on Gish, and etc

(buff school powers please and ty ^^)

[Dasrak]

shroudb wrote:

That hasn't happen to us at all, what class was it that didn't use its powers?

Wizards definitely have it worst, but some Sorcerer bloodlines are just as bad (Aberrant and Fey have very niche powers, and Angelic can also fall into this trap if you've got another party member providing a buff that doesn't stack with Angelic Halo, as happened in my Sombrefall Hall game). Bards can also have some problems with this at lower levels, but should have other options before long to handle situations where Counter Performance just isn't coming up. Clerics can be screwed based on their deity choice.