Alertness and Skill Focus are competing against feats that are vastly superior in boosting your PCs characteristics,Bonus food for thought: Have you ever had any character take Skill Focus in any skill *other* than Perception?
If so, could you explain, rationally, how it is possible that Perception is the single most important skill for every character, but still players choose to spend a resource on boosting other skills when they could be boosting Perception with it?
No, nobody takes any Skill Focus, because it's a very weak feat compared to other feats you can take. Apart from having to take it as a PrC/feat tree requirement or getting it for free as a half-elf, there is no reason to pick Skill Focus because you have things like Power Attack, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell or Improved Initiative.
Boosting your Perception is important, but not at expense of denying yourself other critical elements of character advancement.
"Nobody takes it because it's not min maxing enough".
As for Wolfhelm II; I considered Skill Focus for a Brawler idea. Old boxer that needs alchemy items to stay in the game. There was also a topic about using Healer's Hands. Skill Focus might be a way to help jump that up. It's also a weak excuse but Skill Focus on an NPC can help make them a blacksmith with a bit more skill than players.
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Have to admit removing Skill-Status from Perception has been one of the things I liked best on the new system. Perception-Skill was always one of the major complaints in our group for ANY system (being D&D, Midgard, Call of the Warlock, whatever...). Sometimes we even included houserules to "remove power from Perception".
I mean, isn't is more powerful now? Not as easy to boost but considering it's "Not get ambushed" and "Find the secret Door" but also "You go first" skill/ability/number. Heck Illusion notes it as well when interacting with it so maybe we can toss "Some sort of Resistance" on top of it.
It's not as easy to boost it like it was in PF1. But I struggle to believe it's not going to be one of the bigger non stat numbers you are expected to push if not THE biggest. Which means everyone wants it, and everyone is going to figure out how to get the numbers they need.
Yes, but now at least it's invalidating different choices, instead of skill increases. :P
EDIT: Also, more importantly, now the system expressly recognizes how important and powerful it is, instead of pretending that Perception and Knowledge (engineering) are roughly equal things for any character to choose to invest in.
Yes, but now at least it's invalidating different choices, instead of skill increases. :P
EDIT: Also, more importantly, now the system expressly recognizes how important and powerful it is, instead of pretending that Perception and Knowledge (engineering) are roughly equal things for any character to choose to invest in.
Because being told your choice wasn't a good one is something we really need more of.
Reply to edit - Debatable. Something I always see is "OH X isn't as good as Y so X is bad". WHY though.
Perception is strong yes but I'm playing Iron Gods right now. That Knowledge Engineering is actually worth it as opposed to say Knowledge Nature. Or Swim. Seriously I had to raise Swim maybe twice the whole game. And seriously, how bloody high do you people need Perception to be? Goes more towards PF1 skills in generally, you're rolling at +20 you aren't going to DIE if you don't get it to +22.
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I've taken Skill Focus Craft (Alchemy) for my alchemist. No regrets. Skill Focus always has a ton of appeal for me.
I agree it's useful to have a perception specialist in the party but I've never felt it was a must-have for every character in the party. One person cries, "Wolf!" and pretty much everyone is on board after that. I have never experienced a bitter TPK in decades of gaming for lack of 100% max perception builds across the party.
Lack of perception can be fun, too. That sorcerer is too self-absorbed, that cleric only feels the faith. So long as someone in the party gets around to saying, "Hey, your mightyness, wake up!" they get to apply their own specialties.
In Savage Worlds this was not my experience at all. I have only seen people choose skills that fit their character idea, and none of them were a "skill tax", but more of something special their character could do. I don't think this game plays like d&d, nor is it meant to.
Notice is the most powerful skill in Savage Worlds and i have never seen a PC who didn't buy at least a d6 in some point in their career. other valuable skills include fighting and shooting, which let you make attacks without penalties.
the savage worlds tables i played at pretty much buy notice, fighting and shooting on every character so they could not only make a lot of attacks at a variety of ranges but also avoid ambushes,
backgrounds weren't a thing in 4e core, but 4e campaign settings introduced backgrounds intended for organized play. the 2 most powerful Faerun backgrounds are Durpar, which gives +2 to perception, and Algorond which lets you train perception at +1 even if it isn't on your class skill list.
and 5e lets you swap background skills and there are races that get free skills. so i see most 5e characters swap a more useless background skill like performance just to get perception and spend a feat on prodigy to get expertise in perception. of course most characters i have seen have either been humans, half human or warforged envoys to get free perception.
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I've taken Skill Focus Perform (Oratory) on my LE Drow Bard who became ruler of a rather substantial empire. It was appropriate, and he was very buff-focused in combat, so it wasn't super limiting mechanically. I've seen others take Skill Focus on various things. I've also taken and seen people take less than maxed ranks in Perception on various occasions.
But that in no way means Perception in PF1 isn't vastly overpowered for a skill or that making it not take points from the same pool as skills wasn't one of the standout great mechanical choices of PF2.
See, I've seen everything in my first paragraph because people like creating stuff to concept and are willing to take suboptimal options to get there, not because maxing out Perception was not always the optimal choice. Removing Perception as a skill lets them continue to do that without being mechanically penalized as strongly for it.
And making it so that people taking flavor-based options are less mechanically penalized is pretty much always and unambiguously a good thing. Well, unless the flavor is being terrible at something, I suppose, but that's rather a niche case...
I've taken Skill Focus Perform (Oratory) on my LE Drow Bard who became ruler of a rather substantial empire. It was appropriate, and he was very buff-focused in combat, so it wasn't super limiting mechanically. I've seen others take Skill Focus on various things. I've also taken and seen people take less than maxed ranks in Perception on various occasions.
But that in no way means Perception in PF1 isn't vastly overpowered for a skill or that making it not take points from the same pool as skills wasn't one of the standout great mechanical choices of PF2.
See, I've seen everything in my first paragraph because people like creating stuff to concept and are willing to take suboptimal options to get there, not because maxing out Perception was not always the optimal choice. Removing Perception as a skill lets them continue to do that without being mechanically penalized as strongly for it.
And making it so that people taking flavor-based options are less mechanically penalized is pretty much always and unambiguously a good thing. Well, unless the flavor is being terrible at something, I suppose, but that's rather a niche case...
Considering everything it does now, I feel you are penalized for not raising it. You aren't;
-Seeing ambushes or secret doors along with secret rolls-You aren't going first or before enemies
-Possibly fall for Illusion spells set up
It's not a skill anymore but why shouldn't one expect people to raise it has high as possible? I expect 1-2 general feats showing up on every sheet. We can't max cap it like before but now we have even more of a reason to try to.
I've taken Skill Focus Perform (Oratory) on my LE Drow Bard who became ruler of a rather substantial empire. It was appropriate, and he was very buff-focused in combat, so it wasn't super limiting mechanically. I've seen others take Skill Focus on various things. I've also taken and seen people take less than maxed ranks in Perception on various occasions.
But that in no way means Perception in PF1 isn't vastly overpowered for a skill or that making it not take points from the same pool as skills wasn't one of the standout great mechanical choices of PF2.
See, I've seen everything in my first paragraph because people like creating stuff to concept and are willing to take suboptimal options to get there, not because maxing out Perception was not always the optimal choice. Removing Perception as a skill lets them continue to do that without being mechanically penalized as strongly for it.
And making it so that people taking flavor-based options are less mechanically penalized is pretty much always and unambiguously a good thing. Well, unless the flavor is being terrible at something, I suppose, but that's rather a niche case...
Considering everything it does now, I feel you are penalized for not raising it. You aren't;
-Seeing ambushes or secret doors along with secret rolls
-You aren't going first or before enemies
-Possibly fall for Illusion spells set upIt's not a skill anymore but why shouldn't one expect people to raise it has high as possible? I expect 1-2 general feats showing up on every sheet. We can't max cap it like before but now we have even more of a reason to try to.
There's only one feat that raises the proficiency though, and only to expert. There's that one that let's you search at full speed, but that does nothing to increase your number and only works for overland travel.
I feel like "everybody takes one or two specific general feats" is just a consequence of there being very few general feats, many of which are potentially redundant with class features, which is a temporary condition.
Specifically there are 20 general feats, 4 of which have an attribute prerequisite, 7 of which increase a proficiency in a way that might not stack with your class, 2 of which have to do with ancestry feats, and 1 of which is inaccessible to everyone except rogues and rangers. Which leaves us- breath control, diehard, fleet, incredible initiative, ride, and toughness.
Notice is the most powerful skill in Savage Worlds and i have never seen a PC who didn't buy at least a d6 in some point in their career. other valuable skills include fighting and shooting, which let you make attacks without penalties.
the savage worlds tables i played at pretty much buy notice, fighting and shooting on every character so they could not only make a lot of attacks at a variety of ranges but also avoid ambushes,
backgrounds weren't a thing in 4e core, but 4e campaign settings introduced backgrounds intended for organized play. the 2 most powerful Faerun backgrounds are Durpar, which gives +2 to perception, and Algorond which lets you train perception at +1 even if it isn't on your class skill list.
and 5e lets you swap background skills and there are races that get free skills. so i see most 5e characters swap a more useless background skill like performance just to get perception and spend a feat on prodigy to get expertise in perception. of course most characters i have seen have either been humans, half human or warforged envoys to get free perception.
OK, this adds a bit more clarity to the previous statements. Again, I just never experienced Notice being overly powerful, but really I think it mostly comes down to the type of game being run, and there is a very wide range of genres SW can be used for.
In 5e I haven't had any players go out of their way to get any particular skill really, so this just hasn't been a problem in any of the games I've been in. Also, don't forget about the Investigation skill, some people overlook it and use Perception when Investigation is a better fit.
As a DM I don't rely heavily on the Perception skill anyway, I describe things and expect my players to describe what they are doing, and not just roll Perception every time there is something noticeable nearby, and besides Stealth, Perception just isn't always needed.
Skills are one area where the GM can assert some control over how the game is played, seeing as skills are only rolled when asked for. So if Perception is overtaking the game as the #1 skill, I think some of the blame is on the GM.
Edit: I should add that I think Perception IS pretty powerful in PF1, because it is baked into more rules overall.
There's only one feat that raises the proficiency though, and only to expert. There's that one that let's you search at full speed, but that does nothing to increase your number and only works for overland travel.I've taken Skill Focus Perform (Oratory) on my LE Drow Bard who became ruler of a rather substantial empire. It was appropriate, and he was very buff-focused in combat, so it wasn't super limiting mechanically. I've seen others take Skill Focus on various things. I've also taken and seen people take less than maxed ranks in Perception on various occasions.
But that in no way means Perception in PF1 isn't vastly overpowered for a skill or that making it not take points from the same pool as skills wasn't one of the standout great mechanical choices of PF2.
See, I've seen everything in my first paragraph because people like creating stuff to concept and are willing to take suboptimal options to get there, not because maxing out Perception was not always the optimal choice. Removing Perception as a skill lets them continue to do that without being mechanically penalized as strongly for it.
And making it so that people taking flavor-based options are less mechanically penalized is pretty much always and unambiguously a good thing. Well, unless the flavor is being terrible at something, I suppose, but that's rather a niche case...
Considering everything it does now, I feel you are penalized for not raising it. You aren't;
-Seeing ambushes or secret doors along with secret rolls
-You aren't going first or before enemies
-Possibly fall for Illusion spells set upIt's not a skill anymore but why shouldn't one expect people to raise it has high as possible? I expect 1-2 general feats showing up on every sheet. We can't max cap it like before but now we have even more of a reason to try to.
Isn't there basically an "Improved Initiative" or am I working with and older pdf. At work can't check.
That said, if you don't have it at expert, well you have the option of buffing it to expert or not. With how PF2 is, why would you pick the not? That and with how strong it is, can they even make a Perception feat later and not have it be auto include? Same with magic items.
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That said, if you don't have it at expert, well you have the option of buffing it to expert or not. With how PF2 is, why would you pick the not?
I mean, one of my favorite PF1 characters was a Changeling Paladin with a 6 Wisdom, 0 ranks in perception, was nearsighted, constantly sleepy, and incredibly prone to distraction or getting lost in her own thoughts...
Isn't there basically an "Improved Initiative" or am I working with and older pdf. At work can't...There's only one feat that raises the proficiency though, and only to expert. There's that one that let's you search at full speed, but that does nothing to increase your number and only works for overland travel.I've taken Skill Focus Perform (Oratory) on my LE Drow Bard who became ruler of a rather substantial empire. It was appropriate, and he was very buff-focused in combat, so it wasn't super limiting mechanically. I've seen others take Skill Focus on various things. I've also taken and seen people take less than maxed ranks in Perception on various occasions.
But that in no way means Perception in PF1 isn't vastly overpowered for a skill or that making it not take points from the same pool as skills wasn't one of the standout great mechanical choices of PF2.
See, I've seen everything in my first paragraph because people like creating stuff to concept and are willing to take suboptimal options to get there, not because maxing out Perception was not always the optimal choice. Removing Perception as a skill lets them continue to do that without being mechanically penalized as strongly for it.
And making it so that people taking flavor-based options are less mechanically penalized is pretty much always and unambiguously a good thing. Well, unless the flavor is being terrible at something, I suppose, but that's rather a niche case...
Considering everything it does now, I feel you are penalized for not raising it. You aren't;
-Seeing ambushes or secret doors along with secret rolls
-You aren't going first or before enemies
-Possibly fall for Illusion spells set upIt's not a skill anymore but why shouldn't one expect people to raise it has high as possible? I expect 1-2 general feats showing up on every sheet. We can't max cap it like before but now we have even more of a reason to try to.
Yeah, but that's JUST for initiative. Perception is good because it encompasses so much, no just initiative. There's actually a bunch of Perception feats between the different Ancestries, but they all apply to very specific situations like spotting hidden enemies or looking at stonework. That makes them much less good that a straight perception bump.
As for why people would take other feats, general feats have lots of good (if boring) options to choose from. Lots of people might want fleet first, for example, or might want to cover a bad save, or get armor proficiency.
That said, if you don't have it at expert, well you have the option of buffing it to expert or not. With how PF2 is, why would you pick the not?I mean, one of my favorite PF1 characters was a Changeling Paladin with a 6 Wisdom, 0 ranks in perception, was nearsighted, constantly sleepy, and incredibly prone to distraction or getting lost in her own thoughts...
And in PF2 enjoys going last and falling for Visual Illusions. And ambushed if solo.
Wait would you enjoy that? I know few people that like going last unless they've built for a follow up style.
I'm sorry, Perception seems far more required in PF2 so I question how it's going to play out in the long run.
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Considering everything it does now, I feel you are penalized for not raising it. You aren't;
-Seeing ambushes or secret doors along with secret rolls
-You aren't going first or before enemies
-Possibly fall for Illusion spells set upIt's not a skill anymore but why shouldn't one expect people to raise it has high as possible? I expect 1-2 general feats showing up on every sheet. We can't max cap it like before but now we have even more of a reason to try to.
I'm not actually in disagreement with it being absolutely vital in PF2. But since Perception in and of itself doesn't inherently compete with other resources in the same way it did in PF1, that almost doesn't matter.
The only resource a PC can invest in Perception is the Alertness General Feat...which may indeed be too powerful (though Toughness, Fleet, and a few other General Feats are in the same ballpark). But having a single flavor-neutral Feat slightly overpowered isn't nearly as disruptive to character building as having a whole skill vastly overpowered.
Why is a feat that increases perception from trained to expert (which does nothing if your class would already do this) be more of an issue than a feat which increases your fort/will/reflex save from trained to expert?
It seems like "Perception is as important as, and therefore treated like, saving throws" is the right way to do this.
So by linking perception to class rather than leaving it a skill this system is limiting choices rather than fostering them. Players cannot seek multiple creative ways around the problem, they must do the approved thing.
Would you complain that if I wanted to make a spellcasting single-classed Fighter, that Paizo has committed the sin of limiting my choices?
Would you complain that if I wanted to make a spellcasting single-classed Fighter, that Paizo has committed the sin of limiting my choices?
So by linking perception to class rather than leaving it a skill this system is limiting choices rather than fostering them. Players cannot seek multiple creative ways around the problem, they must do the approved thing.
Probably, in thorin001's case.
I'm not actually in disagreement with it being absolutely vital in PF2. But since Perception in and of itself doesn't inherently compete with other resources in the same way it did in PF1, that almost doesn't matter.
The only resource a PC can invest in Perception is the Alertness General Feat...which may indeed be too powerful (though Toughness, Fleet, and a few other General Feats are in the same ballpark). But having a single flavor-neutral Feat slightly overpowered isn't nearly as disruptive to character building as having a whole skill vastly overpowered.
You an argue not raising Perception in PF1.
Can you argue not trying to buff it in PF2?
As for resources; Go look at the item list. Go look and tell me how many Perception based items aren't going to be required by the community in a year because otherwise you're doing it wrong. (Bloody heck Juggernaut Mutagen, why)
Why is a feat that increases perception from trained to expert (which does nothing if your class would already do this) be more of an issue than a feat which increases your fort/will/reflex save from trained to expert?
It seems like "Perception is as important as, and therefore treated like, saving throws" is the right way to do this.
Show me how Fort progresses the plot.
Show me how Will finds a key item.Show me Reflex letting you go first.
I'll take "Doesn't happen" for 200. Heck, I see Perception as having more weight than any of those saves. Besides, with how Crits work you'll want those feats anyway. Back to having choices already planned out and expected of us. Progress!
Does a Will save have to find a key item? Or will an example of an important clue/information suffice?
This is one of my favorite demons.
A player witnessed one of them controlling a group of people who were worshiping at a temple, but because he failed his Will save, he couldn't tell the party anything about what he saw.
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I'm not actually in disagreement with it being absolutely vital in PF2. But since Perception in and of itself doesn't inherently compete with other resources in the same way it did in PF1, that almost doesn't matter.
The only resource a PC can invest in Perception is the Alertness General Feat...which may indeed be too powerful (though Toughness, Fleet, and a few other General Feats are in the same ballpark). But having a single flavor-neutral Feat slightly overpowered isn't nearly as disruptive to character building as having a whole skill vastly overpowered.
You an argue not raising Perception in PF1.
Can you argue not trying to buff it in PF2?
As for resources; Go look at the item list. Go look and tell me how many Perception based items aren't going to be required by the community in a year because otherwise you're doing it wrong. (Bloody heck Juggernaut Mutagen, why)
Why is a feat that increases perception from trained to expert (which does nothing if your class would already do this) be more of an issue than a feat which increases your fort/will/reflex save from trained to expert?
It seems like "Perception is as important as, and therefore treated like, saving throws" is the right way to do this.
Show me how Fort progresses the plot.
Show me how Will finds a key item.
Show me Reflex letting you go first.I'll take "Doesn't happen" for 200. Heck, I see Perception as having more weight than any of those saves. Besides, with how Crits work you'll want those feats anyway. Back to having choices already planned out and expected of us. Progress!
Without even looking at the list of items, I can say that the maximum amount of items you'll need for perception is "one at any given time." Because item bonuses don't stack, so at worst you'll want whatever the best one on the market is currently.
As for saves, fortitude let's you survive to progress the plot. Will saves help you not get dominated by the wizard so you can actually claim eye McGuffin from them. Reflex keep you from getting taken out of the fight so you still get to act at all.
By your standard, anything which provides a tangible benefit means our choices are already planned out. Everything uses the crit system, not just saves.
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You an argue not raising Perception in PF1.
Not especially well you can't. I mean, you can from a thematic perspective, but mechanically? Not so much.
Can you argue not trying to buff it in PF2?
Can I argue not taking the Alertness Feat on those Classes that can even take it? Sure. You only get a few General Feats, and I can think of several builds that will prioritize, say, Fleet, Toughness, an extra Ancestry Feat, Remarkable Resonance, and at least one Save boosting Feat all over Alertness.
Alertness is an excellent General Feat and will see frequent use, but I don't think it's more common than taking a Feat to boost a Save is.
As for resources; Go look at the item list. Go look and tell me how many Perception based items aren't going to be required by the community in a year because otherwise you're doing it wrong. (Bloody heck Juggernaut Mutagen, why)
Uh...as noted, the answer is actually 'one'. The best possible one, since they don't stack. And, frankly, we don't know enough about the math of the final version of the game or what mundane items might be available to know this.
Show me how Fort progresses the plot.
Show me how Will finds a key item.
Show me Reflex letting you go first.
As others have mentioned 'not dying' is very much progressing the plot...
I'll take "Doesn't happen" for 200. Heck, I see Perception as having more weight than any of those saves. Besides, with how Crits work you'll want those feats anyway. Back to having choices already planned out and expected of us. Progress!
Save Feats and Alertness are both excellent options and I think most PCs I've seen have at least one of those four. Many have two. Reducing their power level would be one way to handle this, though I'd rather see the other General Feats boosted up to equal them, personally.
However, some of that is because there are only 20 General Feats to pick from. That's gonna change real rapidly once the game actually comes out.
Like, perception is great, but I wouldn't say it is strictly better than upgrading your AC, which general feats can also do.
Plus, the same benefit that alertness grants can be gained by increasing Wisdom one time with one of your stat boosts (which will also increase your will save, so it's a good idea.) So should we be concerned that Wisdom does too much?
Plus, the same benefit that alertness grants can be gained by increasing Wisdom one time with one of your stat boosts (which will also increase your will save, so it's a good idea.) So should we be concerned that Wisdom does too much?
Get back to me. I'm still seeing people complain DEX does too much
Plus, the same benefit that alertness grants can be gained by increasing Wisdom one time with one of your stat boosts (which will also increase your will save, so it's a good idea.) So should we be concerned that Wisdom does too much?
Well, the consensus here appears to be that a one-time +1 bonus to Perception is an absolutely massive advantage that would invalidate all other choices for a skill increase. It is such a massive problem that it even has the magical power to burst into the real world and rewrite rulebooks that could contain trivially easy-to-apply solutions for it.
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Plus, the same benefit that alertness grants can be gained by increasing Wisdom one time with one of your stat boosts (which will also increase your will save, so it's a good idea.) So should we be concerned that Wisdom does too much?Well, the consensus here appears to be that a one-time +1 bonus to Perception is an absolutely massive advantage that would invalidate all other choices for a skill increase. It is such a massive problem that it even has the magical power to burst into the real world and rewrite rulebooks that could contain trivially easy-to-apply solutions for it.
Actually, what people are mostly saying is that a +1 to Perception is better than a +1 to basically any skill currently in the game. Which is probably correct.
Additionally, going from Untrained to Trained is such a massive bonus everyone would be forced to take it at that level at a minimum. And that's a +4 bonus, and would be absolutely required.
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I don't see how making perception a skill that everyone is automatically trained in and therefore doesn't work like most skills, plus creating a bunch of skill feats which are somehow supposed to be balanced against the existing skill feats is somehow "simpler."
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You can’t be good at perception without also being a master at judging people is the laughable one to me.
I don't see how making perception a skill that everyone is automatically trained in and therefore doesn't work like most skills,
You don't see how doing that instead of separating Perception out as its own thing and thus make it work different from "most skills" (which incidentally is something else that would be worth talking about but in this discussion environment clearly isn't) even more would be simpler?
I prefer the concept of perception not being developed as a skill and for the most part I think it works very well. Most characters will develop ranks in perception regardless.
What worries me a little is that it also encompasses Sense Motive and Initiative.
I would like to believe that spotting a hidden door or noting that dragon in the distance is a little different to picking up on somebody lying to you.
Initiative is also a stumbling block for me. More perceptive people react quicker?
That may be true in certain situations but not in all. I have known many people in my lifetime who can react very quickly but are not particularly perceptive, and vice versa.
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I don't see how making perception a skill that everyone is automatically trained in and therefore doesn't work like most skills,You don't see how doing that instead of separating Perception out as its own thing and thus make it work different from "most skills" (which incidentally is something else that would be worth talking about but in this discussion environment clearly isn't) even more would be simpler?
Nope, not at all. Perception being its own thing is VERY simple. Especially since it follows the same ability score+proficiency+item+other bonuses model as everything else in the game. Making it a skill that doesn't actually follow the same rules as other skills seems much weirder. Literally the only reason I can think of why anyone would find the current model confusing is because it breaks what they are used to from PF1 and D&D. A new player coming in would have no reason to question it.
Combine that with how poorly balanced Perception is against the skills, and I'm quite happy to slaughter that particular sacred cow in favor of something simpler and better designed.
You can’t be good at perception without also being a master at judging people is the laughable one to me.
That to me feels like a call to make sense motive its own skill, or perhaps make it something rolled into one of the charisma based skills. Which is an idea I'm open to, and could certainly warrant some interesting discussion, but has nothing to do with Perception being a skill in general. I feel like Sense Motive is soooooo campaign dependent that it currently qualifies as the least rolled use of perception.
I don't see how making perception a skill that everyone is automatically trained in and therefore doesn't work like most skills,You don't see how doing that instead of separating Perception out as its own thing and thus make it work different from "most skills" (which incidentally is something else that would be worth talking about but in this discussion environment clearly isn't) even more would be simpler?Nope, not at all. Perception being its own thing is VERY simple. Especially since it follows the same ability score+proficiency+item+other bonuses model as everything else in the game. Making it a skill that doesn't actually follow the same rules as other skills seems much weirder. Literally the only reason I can think of why anyone would find the current model confusing is because it breaks what they are used to from PF1 and D&D. A new player coming in would have no reason to question it.
Combine that with how poorly balanced Perception is against the skills, and I'm quite happy to slaughter that particular sacred cow in favor of something simpler and better designed.
You can’t be good at perception without also being a master at judging people is the laughable one to me.That to me feels like a call to make sense motive its own skill, or perhaps make it something rolled into one of the charisma based skills. Which is an idea I'm open to, and could certainly warrant some interesting discussion, but has nothing to do with Perception being a skill in general. I feel like Sense Motive is soooooo campaign dependent that it currently qualifies as the least rolled use of perception.
It is exactly that, but having sense motive rolled in with perception is a bit silly.
I prefer the concept of perception not being developed as a skill and for the most part I think it works very well. Most characters will develop ranks in perception regardless.
What worries me a little is that it also encompasses Sense Motive and Initiative.
I would like to believe that spotting a hidden door or noting that dragon in the distance is a little different to picking up on somebody lying to you.
Initiative is also a stumbling block for me. More perceptive people react quicker?
That may be true in certain situations but not in all. I have known many people in my lifetime who can react very quickly but are not particularly perceptive, and vice versa.
Well, it's literally how quickly you spot and identify a threat and consciously act on it. Even when looking at an ambush scenario, it doesn't actually determine how quickly you reflexively respond to the danger. That's either your AC, flat-footed AC, or reflex save. (Or Acrobatics check if you are dropped in a pit and need to grab a ledge, for example.) It doesn't give you special reactions like Nimble Dodge. Nor does it let you actually perform more actions in a given amount of time like the Quick or Accelerated condition.
I'm pretty cool with being used as the default initiative mod. That being said, in specific situations where it doesn't make sense, you CAN apply different skills to it. That seems like a really good place for the rules to be.
As I said before, Sense Motive I kind of get, though I will note that most characters in fiction who are good at Perception are also good at Sense Motive. Sherlock Holmes, Hercule Poirot, Shawn Spencer... PF2 seems to be pushing more towards omni-talented heroes in this vein, and consolidating stuff like this consistent towards that.
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And unfortunately completely rendiering non functional a genre of more normal hero’s that are actually both good and bad at things rather than being omnicompetent rennasaince men universally.
Most characters will develop ranks in perception regardless.
They most definitely will *not* do that in PF2e.
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I get that you should have a reaction time and that Perception can make that easier, but when very slow and lumbering creatures begin to act quicker in combat than faster and more reactive creatures simply because they are higher level this concept begins to fall apart. I do believe that Initiative should have some kind of Dex/Wis mix rather than being based solely upon DEX, but skill based for me does not do it with the current +1 per level to everything.
And as for Sense Motive and Perception being the same in fiction, well when you break that down into Detectives then fine, I get you. But not all perceptive characters are detectives.
I am pretty sure Holmes, Poirot etc spent time training and honing their detective skills (however naturally raw they may be).
It also breaks when applied to monsters. A Sea Serpent for example that in effect has a +22 Sense Motive bonus. Even Ogres get +5.
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I get that you should have a reaction time and that Perception can make that easier, but when very slow and lumbering creatures begin to act quicker in combat than faster and more reactive creatures simply because they are higher level this concept begins to fall apart. I do believe that Initiative should have some kind of Dex/Wis mix rather than being based solely upon DEX, but skill based for me does not do it with the current +1 per level to everything.
And as for Sense Motive and Perception being the same in fiction, well when you break that down into Detectives then fine, I get you. But not all perceptive characters are detectives.
I am pretty sure Holmes, Poirot etc spent time training and honing their detective skills (however naturally raw they may be).
It also breaks when applied to monsters. A Sea Serpent for example that in effect has a +22 Sense Motive bonus. Even Ogres get +5.
To me, the very real problem this speaks to is monster perception bonuses are too high. Which also sucks for other reasons, like how hard it is to sneak up on things that shouldn't be that perceptive.
If you lower the perception bonuses of monsters to be more thematically appropriate, this problem mostly solves itself. Those monsters probably won't be going first very often, but slow and dumb types usually have bushels of hit points and should survive the first round anyway.
As for sea serpents with good sense motive, how often are you going to be lying to creatures that probably don't even speak your language and are already hostile at first sight? This strikes me as a bit of non-issue for most beastly types, which again leaves the problem as big dumb brutes like ogres which csn be fixed by lowering their bonus, and/or some appropriate circumstance penalties that are left up to GM discretion.
Thankfully, I'm pretty sure monster perception bonuses are gonna get lowered based on various comments from Mark and Jason. In the meantime, when I DM outside of Doomsday Dawn I've found table 10-2 helpful for houseruling-- lying to an ogre seems like it might be an easy task for its level, so I consult the chart and lower the DC to 10.
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The actual question is: why isn't Perception a Save?
Fort vs poison, death effect etc.
Ref vs explosions and dodge-able stuff.
Will vs domination and mind-affecting stuff (based on Cha since it is the "strength of personality" and whatever).
Per vs illusion and to notice stuff (based on Wis).
I am 90% sure the answer is legacy reasons. Mark explained that since saving throws and attack rolls are just checks, they actually focused tested changing the names to "will check, attack check, etc" but people hated calling them that. I imagine the same principle applies for "roll a perception save."
I actually think your idea is a good one, and is one of those things that would work better in a vacuum sans anyone having experience otherwise. It's also really close to what we currently have, with the only real exception being will saves powered by charisma. Which is another change I like in theory, though we'd need to examine if that makes charisma too good given how powerful it is combat and whatever interactions with focus/resonance/whatever it might have.
And unfortunately completely rendiering non functional a genre of more normal hero’s that are actually both good and bad at things rather than being omnicompetent rennasaince men universally.
There are vast swathes of story archetypes that D&D/Pathfinder are incompatible with. Game design always has to exclude certain types of possibilities.
Characters will get more competent in comparison to "average people", meaning npc's that don't gain levels, but they will remain, or even become worse, compared to people of their own level. If you're untrained in something, and I've gone from trained to legendary, you've gotten worse at it compared to me, even though we've gained levels at the same rate.
Your last paragraph makes no sense. At least number wise, of course someone trained keeps getting better at something more than one who isn’t.
