As of the PF2 playtest, not anymore. Sarenrae evidently got tired of tapping her foot and looking cross at those yahoos (and other TN divine casters of her) while handing them holy power and cut them all off. Good for her, even if it ruins a bunch of jokes for me and others who like sniggering at cosmological inconsistencies.That's less an issue of Sarenrae and more the murderhobos killing in her name.
She disapproves of those that do not respect redemption, notably the cult of the Dawnflower. Golarion has many real world issues including the perversion of faith to justify violence.
Does the cult of the dawnflower not have clerics? Warpriests? It seems to be that Sarenrae is willing to sponsor them. And you can't just say "oh they're actually being sponsored by something evil they don't know" cause that's straight headcanon. Good headcanon, but headcanon.
Yep. I think it's pretty clear Sarenrae's interested in redemption and goodly goodness, but her paladin code is worded in an unfortunate way that's very easy to interpret as "I will give everyone who disagrees with me one chance to change their minds, and if they don't, I will kill them".
Big problem being that prior to PF2, Big S was allowing a whole bunch of people to interpret it that way and not smacking them down and revoking cleric/paladin powers. It's nice to see that she finally noticed what sorts of deeds her "True Neutral" murder-cults were committing in her name, and got around to doing something about it.
Interestingly, that old "Agree with me or die" stance works out with a lot less problems if you assume a setting where Sarenrae is the only non-evil deity, and there's no atheists. Where everyone is either with her, or evil.
Sarenrae as the only non-evil deity is very much not PF's default though. An argument which requires it is far enough out in homebrew that it doesn't have much force.
Really, the main problem with Sarenrae (and a few other gods in other contexts) is that PF1 didn't really have heresy rules, so a large number of players read "these people exist" and took that as "and [deity] is fine with this!", when it should have been "and [deity] is begrudgingly accepting them in the hope that this bit of influence helps lead them on a better (or worse, depending on the deity) path".
Sarenrae didn't allow the Cult of the Dawnflower to exist because she was fine with tyranny and crusading. She allowed them to exist because she though she could redeem them.
Now, PF2 might still get heresy rules (in fact, I hope so), but hopefully they'll draw a notable line between heretic followers and proper followers.
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Heresy rules... that's funny, the rules in 3.xx were so written that when I mastered it, I ruled that a cleric could not 'fall', if he got away from his original god's ideals, he would either be secretly 'adopted' by another deity, or simply be sustained by his (straight or twisted) ideals... of course, when it came down to shifting alignments, he could no longer ignore the fact that his powers no longer came from his original god, and always had the option to seekatonement, but he never had to, he could go on, on his own faith's power, and possibly worshipping a twisted form of his old god, possibly being supported by another deity compatible with his new alignment and ideals... and he might never care to know who was secretly powering him up (if anybody at all, deityless clerics being a thing are really an interesting feature of the game).
If I'm being serious and not nerdraging about Iomedae, Asomodeus is hard to argue against. I concede that the demon lord of "strangers, kidnapping and candy" and others like him are beyond imagination in their awfulness, but they're just not very prevalent. Like Set said, a much more personal, localized Evil. No world altering consequences, much more small strings of crime and blasphemy.
Meanwhile, you have Cheliax being one of the strongest countries on the continent while actively and openly worshiping devils. They already have colonies, and they don't seem like the type to sit back and build higher walls when they're more land to take. Naval juggernaut, power-hungry, expansionist. I'm not saying he doesn't have any competition for Evil badass of the universe, but it's a lot of distant seconds in my book.
One of the worst parts is that I don't think you can ever put enough lipstick on "The Demon Lord of child molestation" to make it a mainstream thing, but people can be turned around to full-blown devil worship in small steps. Devils are about laws, laws are stable, stable is safe. Just like Cheliax's civil war, you can inject Asmodeus right after a big social upheaval or disaster, and people will fall right in line. "I want things to be normal, I want to stop the bandits, I want to go to church and go to work and stop worrying." Asmodeus is also already legal to worship in a number of other places, so it very much normalizes him. The Prince of Law rather than Darkness or Lies. Good PR is scary as Hell.
Its not so strong anymore. Assuming the APs happened. Its navy was destroyed, it lost territory in to a bunch of legally endowed rebels in Kintargo, while it did withstand the Glorious Reclamation still hurt them and took some more territory, and the Heroes of Westcrown aren't exactly for Team Cheliax either.
"justice" delivered by the scimitars edge" doesn't necessarily mean death. It could mean a hand cut off, or a scar inflicted to brand a criminal, or shaving someone's head. Or beard. Or killing their dangerous dog. Or cutting a hole in their favourite shirt. Seriously, this Iomedae business is just silly.
As of the PF2 playtest, not anymore. Sarenrae evidently got tired of tapping her foot and looking cross at those yahoos (and other TN divine casters of her) while handing them holy power and cut them all off. Good for her, even if it ruins a bunch of jokes for me and others who like sniggering at cosmological inconsistencies.That's less an issue of Sarenrae and more the murderhobos killing in her name.
She disapproves of those that do not respect redemption, notably the cult of the Dawnflower. Golarion has many real world issues including the perversion of faith to justify violence.
Does the cult of the dawnflower not have clerics? Warpriests? It seems to be that Sarenrae is willing to sponsor them. And you can't just say "oh they're actually being sponsored by something evil they don't know" cause that's straight headcanon. Good headcanon, but headcanon.
Yep. I think it's pretty clear Sarenrae's interested in redemption and goodly goodness, but her paladin code is worded in an unfortunate way that's very easy to interpret as "I will give everyone who disagrees with me one chance to change their minds, and if they don't, I will kill them".
{. . .}
Now I've got this idea to use Sarenrae's poor choice (or that of her divine staff) of wording of her Paladin Code as a story hook . . . .
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^Obviously, Sarenrae and/or her staff must have not foreseen that in the ever-tightening struggle to hone themselves into the most formidable bastions of righteous fury possible, and in accordance with all those guides published from Egorian, her Paladins would start dumping Wisdom . . . .
To be fair, Sarenrae's code doesn't say that a paladin must kill evil (non-spawn of the Rough Beast) creatures that don't seek redemption, only that a paladin must "redeem them by the sword" and "combat [them] with steel when words are not enough". Neither of these rules out the use of nonlethal force.
I'm surprised to see Saranrae's code being questioned, but not Torag.
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Torag got lucky in that his nutcases did their damage on a massive scale(*) long enough ago that most people don't realize it.
(*)Ethnic cleansing of Orcs and likely other unliked Humanoids, causing them to invade the surface ahead of the Dwarves.
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I said my piece about dwarves and their deities near the start of this thread. One step closer to evil by their deeds and beliefs than by the alignment they're listed as.
I said my piece about dwarves and their deities near the start of this thread. One step closer to evil by their deeds and beliefs than by the alignment they're listed as.
And so you did, my error.
It all largely depends on how you classify things as evil - some viewpoints would argue that gods can only be truly evil if they actively are making a conscious choice to be evil instead of having been "born" that way (nature vs nurture and all that), while others would argue that you can be inherently evil without needing free will.
This argument is strongest when applied to rovagug - it could be considered to be more a primal force of destruction that is just considered to be evil because it is in opposition to the aims of all of the other gods.
Heck, rovagug itself complicates the evil status of the other evil gods - from a utilitarian perspective, Asmodeus could be considered a good deity because the beneficial consequences of his actions in imprisoning rovagug probably far outweigh all of the bad things he has done since then.
Though personally I would consider Asmodeus the most evil, because I feel like his actions against rovagug don't count as good as they where likely completely self serving and hence do not count as his motivations where corrupt, as he likely helped to save reality just to enable him to continue existing and perpetuate suffering for a long time.
I'd like to note that in the Kingmaker RPG I just ran across another crazy aspect of Pharsma, in her inquisitor sending innocent people to their deaths in order to make their families take revenge to defeat an undead.
I'd like to note that in the Kingmaker RPG I just ran across another crazy aspect of Pharsma, in her inquisitor sending innocent people to their deaths in order to make their families take revenge to defeat an undead.
NE is a valid Pharasmite alignment.
Anything to destroy the abominations. Anything.
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To probably quote many a murderhobo:
"True Neutral baby!"
To quote many a college-spawned murderhobo:
"Chaotic Neutral baby!"
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Isn’t there a demon lord detailed in the Book of the Damned whose purview is molesting children?
Pretty sure he’s the worst.
You mean Folca? He’s daemonic, but Paizo said they were going to retcon him out of existence in an errata. Good thing, too; there’s evil that can be entertaining and there’s the evil that’s just plain wrong.
Probably Sarenrae her conform or die mantra doesn't seem very good for some one who is suppose to be good aligned.Well seeing as how she doesn't have that mantra it's a non-issue.
I'm not sure why you say she doesn't have that mantra.
So, it's very much, offer evil a chance to not be evil and if they refuse the offer, kill them swiftly.
What's the debate here? I think the intention behind Sarenrae is conform to "being good" not conform to "worshiping her" or else perish. It doesn't mention pride or arrogance, only to end irredeemable evil so that no more harm can be done unto the innocent. Irredeemable evil is pretty all-encompassing a explanatory for things that have been given or could be given all the chances in the world to change but wont.
Sarenrae is probably the most good and least evil deity that I can think of. Like if someone was kind enough to give Hitler a second chance and he still said "screw you, I'm Hitler" so that same person ended him... And we're still calling that person evil, for their conform or die mantra...? No need to overthink it.
You mean Folca? He’s daemonic, but Paizo said they were going to retcon him out of existence in an errata. Good thing, too; there’s evil that can be entertaining and there’s the evil that’s just plain wrong.Isn’t there a demon lord detailed in the Book of the Damned whose purview is molesting children?
Pretty sure he’s the worst.
I'm pretty sure it never specifies, and I think the intention behind it did not mean to portray sexual molestation of any kind. Witnessing or enduring a brutal or horrific event can be a multitude of things.
This is a reader interpretation.
Sarenrae is probably the most good and least evil deity that I can think of. Like if someone was kind enough to give Hitler a second chance and he still said "screw you, I'm Hitler" so that same person ended him... And we're still calling that person evil, for their conform or die mantra...? No need to overthink it.
People overthinking things and working themselves into knots of silliness is what the internet was made for!
People overthinking things and working themselves into knots of silliness is what the internet was made for!
What is this internet you speak of?! Archimedes only communicates through magic!
People overthinking things and working themselves into knots of silliness is what the internet was made for!What is this internet you speak of?! Archimedes only communicates through magic!
Hmm. Is there an image version of sending? Totally not asking because I have all these cat pictures to share.