Bards: Lingering Performance and Inspire Heroics

[The Kulak]

Can Bards use Lingering Performance and Inspire Heroics on the same casting of Inspire Courage?

RAW, it seems it's up to the GM, because the triggers are not "identical". Do you agree?

If you do, as a GM, what would you say?

Triggers p. 297 wrote:

Triggers

The triggers listed in the stat blocks of reactions and free actions limit when you can use them. You can use only 1 free action on a single trigger, but you can take both a free action and a reaction on the same trigger. If you somehow get more than 1 reaction per round, you can also use only 1 reaction per trigger. If two triggers are similar, but not identical, the GM determines whether you can use multiple free actions or reactions.

Lingering Performance p. 235 wrote:

[[F]] Verbal Casting; Trigger You finish casting a cantrip composition with a duration of 1 round.

Inspire Heroics p. 233 wrote:

[[F]] Verbal Casting; Trigger You finish casting inspire courage.

[Siro]

Hmm interesting. I guess it comes down to wither you think the trigger is the excate same (because they are both triggered by Inspire Courage,) or different (as the reason why Inspire Courage triggers both feats are different, as in Lingering Performance is triggered because its a cantrip composition, and Inspire Heroics is triggered because its "Inspire Courage")

So 1st, Test= Does it fall under " If two triggers are similar, but not identical, the GM determines whether you can use multiple free actions or reactions." part? {which is the real sticking point} Personally yes. While both can be triggered by the same thing, the trigger itself is different (the finishing of a cantrip compoistion vs the finishing of Inspire COurage.) Of course, as mentioned above, this would be the place for disagreement, without a really solid answer either way.

2nd, if you answered yes to the Test, then would you, as a GM, allow it for this purpose? I would says Yes. Lingering Performance is needed for Inspire Heroics, and personally I would not see the reason why you would need prerequsite for a feat, and then not being able to use that prerequsite for that feat. It would also be counter to one of the goals this edition, to stop feat chains that have feats with no purpose to them. In this example, the feat chain would be Lingering Performace to Inspire Heroics, and if Lingering Performance could not be used, then it would become a useless feat in the chain. Plus, it makes sense from a situation stand point, there is nothing I can see that would stop a charater both being able to Inspire there allies better, and making it last longer at the same time, as long as they learned how to do both.

*Slight Note, the Lingering Performance power/feat is acutally called Lingering composition. I did the same mistake to because of PF1 terms still in my head.

[Gaterie]

For me, the event triggering both reaction are the same. So no stack.

If you prefer, the actual event is "you finish casting inspire courage". Since Inspire courage is a cantrip composition with a duration of 1 round, this event can be be used to fill the trigger of lingering; or it can obviously be use to fill the trigger of heroics.

And for me, the actual rule is "only one reaction per event" instead of "only one reaction per trigger". I'm not backed by RAW here, but that's what I feel makes the more sense.

The GM's adjudication is needed when the two events are so similar, we're not actually sure there are two different events; something like "trigger1: the opponent uses an action to move away" and "trigger2: the opponent leaves a square you control": those are very similar triggers, but the event "use an action" is not actually the same as the event "leave a square". In this case, the GM may decide it's actually the same event.

But for lingering and heroics, there's only 1 triggering event, so no question for me, you can't do both reactions.

[Lightning Raven]

Gaterie wrote:

For me, the event triggering both reaction are the same. So no stack.

If you prefer, the actual event is "you finish casting inspire courage". Since Inspire courage is a cantrip composition with a duration of 1 round, this event can be be used to fill the trigger of lingering; or it can obviously be use to fill the trigger of heroics.

And for me, the actual rule is "only one reaction per event" instead of "only one reaction per trigger". I'm not backed by RAW here, but that's what I feel makes the more sense.

The GM's adjudication is needed when the two events are so similar, we're not actually sure there are two different events; something like "trigger1: the opponent uses an action to move away" and "trigger2: the opponent leaves a square you control": those are very similar triggers, but the event "use an action" is not actually the same as the event "leave a square". In this case, the GM may decide it's actually the same event.

But for lingering and heroics, there's only 1 triggering event, so no question for me, you can't do both reactions.

They're FREE actions, not reactions.

[PsychicPixel]

Quote:

However, a specific trigger can trigger only one of a character’s free actions.

The specific trigger is finishing the casting of inspire courage. So you can only use 1 free action off of that trigger. So you have to choose would you rather have inspire last more than 1 turn so you have 3 actions for your next turn or would you rather buff your party more at the cost of having to use another action next turn to keep it going.

[The Kulak]

It feels really bad to not be able to mix modifiers like Harmonize and Lingering Composition. Also starting a Harmonized composition still ends any ongoing composition you have.

Maybe that was the intent, but it just feels awful to have an "option" to remove the round-to-round upkeep, and then be able to use it less and less as the game progresses.

[Neume]

This is spot on one of the things I've been saying about Bard being nerfed. To me, very clearly RAW you cannot use both. It is one of the reasons I've been saying there are issues.

I don't have the book in front of me but I'm pretty sure these two Feats are chained off each other (you need one to get the other). But because the Bard doesn't synergize well with itself, we're left with two abilities that used to work together, but now clearly don't.

I don't know if this was an oversight or what but it is a primary issue with the class. As Bard's level they get less and less powerful.

[shroudb]

Had similar questions before, and it's not limited to lingering and heroics, but actually pretty much every single composition altering feat:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42ae8?Compositions-and-Free-action-triggers#1

[shroudb]

Gaterie wrote:

For me, the event triggering both reaction are the same. So no stack.

If you prefer, the actual event is "you finish casting inspire courage". Since Inspire courage is a cantrip composition with a duration of 1 round, this event can be be used to fill the trigger of lingering; or it can obviously be use to fill the trigger of heroics.

And for me, the actual rule is "only one reaction per event" instead of "only one reaction per trigger". I'm not backed by RAW here, but that's what I feel makes the more sense.

The GM's adjudication is needed when the two events are so similar, we're not actually sure there are two different events; something like "trigger1: the opponent uses an action to move away" and "trigger2: the opponent leaves a square you control": those are very similar triggers, but the event "use an action" is not actually the same as the event "leave a square". In this case, the GM may decide it's actually the same event.

But for lingering and heroics, there's only 1 triggering event, so no question for me, you can't do both reactions.

The underlying issue is that the "free action trigger" has changed from PF1 to pf2.

Now, it no longer is "once per action(event)" but "once per trigger".

So, yes, imo as raw, it doesn't matter if it's the same "action" (casting inspire) that triggers 45 different free actions, as long as each of those free actions has a different trigger.

Now, my own thinking is, that this is stupid.

They should simply make it so as to be "1 free per action" and be done with it.

[Dante Doom]

I'm with Siro