I decided to play a very odd swashbuckler that specialises in using an 8ft Bastard Sword, we are playing in a campaign with mostly constructs. Looking for ideas on how to improve the build and feats I could choose.
Cpt Dirk Diggler
Male rakshasa-spawn tiefling swashbuckler 4
N Medium outsider (native)
Init +9; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +3
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 16, flat-footed 13 (+2 armor, +5 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 shield)
hp 45 (4d10+12)
Fort +3, Ref +9, Will +0
Defensive Abilities charmed life 3/day, nimble +1; Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee (L) bastard sword +10 (2d8+5/19-20+4 Precision)
Special Attacks deeds (derring-do, dodging panache, kip-up, menacing swordplay, opportune parry and riposte, precise strike, swashbuckler initiative), panache (5), powerful build
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 20
Base Atk +4; CMB +4; CMD 20
Feats Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Slashing Grace[ACG], Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
Traits dangerously curious, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +10, Bluff +9, Climb +3, Diplomacy +9, Disguise +7, Escape Artist +10, Intimidate +10, Perception +3, Sense Motive +5, Sleight of Hand +8, Use Magic Device +11; Racial Modifiers +2 Disguise, +2 Sense Motive
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ swashbuckler finesse
Other Gear leather armor, buckler, bastard sword
Sounds interesting...just having a hard time seeing STR: 10 while wielding a LG size bastard sword and a light carrying capacity of 33 lbs.
Just your armor and weapon come out to 36 lbs.
Maybe you don't use encumbrance rules in our campaign, and that's ok.
Additionally, there are rules in pathfinder that don't allow a medium sized creature to wield a large sized weapon.
Slashing Grace requires the weapon used to be appropriate for your size:
Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
You also wouldn't be able to regain panache either through a crit or a kill as your chosen weapon is not light, nor a one-handed piercing weapon.
Might have to rethink this one.
I think there is a random tiefling ability that lets you count your arms as one size category larger, which is probably what the OP is using.
Important to note: This ability is NOT intended to be selected, rather it is meant to be randomized. GM permission is required.
Aside from carrying capacity, STR 13 is a pretty good idea since it lets you nab power attack.
I think you should be able to regain panache as slashing grace says you can count bastard swords as one handed piercing weapons.
The item Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf is extremely good, though technically it might not work with Slashing Grace.
Power Attack allows you to take Cornugon Smash, which is very good on a Swashbuckler - damaging enemy attack rolls helps Parry. Menacing Swordplay kind of sucks because it takes a swift action that Swashbucklers really want to use for other things, while Cornugon Smash is a free action.
If you want to build a *really* crazy STR-based bastard sword wielding Swashbuckler, you can multiclass 4 levels of Sacred Fist with Swashbuckler and take Crusader's Flurry, so that you can *flurry* a large bastard sword.
I'd get structural strike asap.
The item Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf is extremely good, though technically it might not work with Slashing Grace.
Power Attack allows you to take Cornugon Smash, which is very good on a Swashbuckler - damaging enemy attack rolls helps Parry. Menacing Swordplay kind of sucks because it takes a swift action that Swashbucklers really want to use for other things, while Cornugon Smash is a free action.
If you want to build a *really* crazy STR-based bastard sword wielding Swashbuckler, you can multiclass 4 levels of Sacred Fist with Swashbuckler and take Crusader's Flurry, so that you can *flurry* a large bastard sword.
You my sir are a genius. Although, what about wearing armor? Taking Sacred Fist makes you lose flurry and the AC bonus, is it worth the trade off?
You could use a Monk's Robe. It will up your class AC bonus by 5 levels. Although that isn't all that much.
4 levels of Sacred Fist plus the traits Fate's Favored and Magical Knack can cast swift-action Divine Favor for a +3 to attack and damage, which offsets the loss of Precise Strike and attack bonus.
For AC, the Monk bonus for 4 levels offsets the loss of the Swashbuckler bonus, but armor is another question. Monk AC vs. armor is a long topic, but the short version goes like this:
Enhancement on armor costs the same as Bracers of Armor, so take armor enhancement out of the equation. This means that a Monk's WIS equals their base armor. 16 WIS and a +2 headband and Bracers of Armor +3 is equal to a chain shirt +3, for example.
The feat Unhindering Shield allows a Monk to use a buckler. Or Crane Style is really great for a Swashbuckler, though it costs 4 feats overall. Crane Riposte and Parry and Riposte is pretty funny.
Come to think of it, instead of 4 levels of Sacred Fist, there's also taking 1 level of Scaled Fist Unchained Monk and 1 level of Crusader Cleric of Ragathiel. Costs only 2 levels, and uses CHA for Monk AC, and has two great bonus feats. No swift Divine Favor, but no flurry penalty.
Come to think of it, instead of 4 levels of Sacred Fist, there's also taking 1 level of Scaled Fist Unchained Monk and 1 level of Crusader Cleric of Ragathiel. Costs only 2 levels, and uses CHA for Monk AC, and has two great bonus feats. No swift Divine Favor, but no flurry penalty.
I like this idea a bit more to be honest makes my life easier.
Come to think of it, instead of 4 levels of Sacred Fist, there's also taking 1 level of Scaled Fist Unchained Monk and 1 level of Crusader Cleric of Ragathiel. Costs only 2 levels, and uses CHA for Monk AC, and has two great bonus feats. No swift Divine Favor, but no flurry penalty.I like this idea a bit more to be honest makes my life easier.
Yeah, it's the simpler way to go.
The feat Cornugon Stun plus Crusader's Flurry lets you make Stunning Fist attacks through your Crusader's Flurry weapon, and Scaled Fist Monk makes Stunning Fist CHA-based. Throw Mantis Style in there and you've got a very powerful Stunning Bastard Sword attack.
About that -1 will save at 1st level....
If you want to build a *really* crazy STR-based bastard sword wielding Swashbuckler, you can multiclass 4 levels of Sacred Fist with Swashbuckler and take Crusader's Flurry, so that you can *flurry* a large bastard sword.
Doesn't work out - Slashing Grace doesn't work while flurrying, so you loose half your Swashbuckler features (panache recovery, Precise Strike, Swashbuckler Weapon Training to name the big ones).
Crusader's Flurry isn't needed anyway - with Versatile Design, two levels of Brawler allow flurry as well, as do Ascetic Style plus Ascetic Form and a single level of (preferably unchained) Monk.
Crusader's Flurry isn't needed anyway - with Versatile Design, two levels of Brawler allow flurry as well,
Versatile Design is sickly-sweet good; no wonder PFS doesn't allow it.
If you want to build a *really* crazy STR-based bastard sword wielding Swashbuckler, you can multiclass 4 levels of Sacred Fist with Swashbuckler and take Crusader's Flurry, so that you can *flurry* a large bastard sword.Doesn't work out - Slashing Grace doesn't work while flurrying, so you loose half your Swashbuckler features (panache recovery, Precise Strike, Swashbuckler Weapon Training to name the big ones).
Crusader's Flurry isn't needed anyway - with Versatile Design, two levels of Brawler allow flurry as well, as do Ascetic Style plus Ascetic Form and a single level of (preferably unchained) Monk.
Oh yeah, they screwed up Slashing Grace for Swashbuckler features as well as DEX. I don't know why, but that one aspect of that lame rewrite gets me every time.
Oh well, there's always using a scimitar, which is technically stronger on a Swashbuckler anyhow. The Merciful Blade trait and the Whirling Dervish Archetype work well together, and the Whirlwind Dance ability is actually pretty cool. I don't think anything there prevents using a large scimitar.
Or just use the Dervish Dance feat. Unlike Slashing Grace, it doesn't need Weapon Focus and it doesn't have the "Can't Flurry" like Slashing Grace does.
The work-around bastard sword option is to take Kata Master Monk. This permits using a Crusader's Flurry weapon with Swashbuckler features regardless of what that weapon is.
Edit: Virtuous Bravo Paladin stacks with Swashbuckler levels for deeds and provides Channel at level 4, so a Cleric level is unnecessary.
The work-around bastard sword option is to take Kata Master Monk. This permits using a Crusader's Flurry weapon with Swashbuckler features regardless of what that weapon is.
Edit: Virtuous Bravo Paladin stacks with Swashbuckler levels for deeds and provides Channel at level 4, so a Cleric level is unnecessary.
I like this idea a bit since I still think flurrying would be ruthless, but wouldn't going 4/4/1 screw me up a bit or is there more upsides to downsides?
Also could you help me understand the trade of flurry if I multiclass to the extra attacks I gain as I level solely in Swashbuckler?
The Virtuous Bravo Paladin gains most of the important Swashbuckler abilities like Precise Strike and Nimble at level 4, and if you have the same abilities from levels of Swashbuckler, they add together.
So trading 4 Swashbuckler for 4 Virtuous Bravo Paladin, you keep all the Precise Strike and Nimble. You lose 4 levels of other Swashbuckler stuff, like Swashbuckler Weapon Training, but it's not really that important. You gain 4 levels of Paladin stuff like Smite Evil.
Kata Master Monk loses one level of Swashbuckler abilities, but gets Flurry of Blows. You have to trade charisma for wisdom, but using wisdom and having levels of Monk and Paladin makes your Will saves way, way higher, which is really good.
Flurry just adds BAB from other classes, and flurry always counts Monk levels as full BAB. So if you are Kata Master Monk 1/ Swashbuckler 4/ Virtuous Bravo Paladin 4 and you use Flurry of Blows, you count as having 1+4+4 = 9 BAB (same as pure Swashbuckler), and you trade 2 attack bonus to gain another attack.
I can post an example build in a bit.
The Virtuous Bravo Paladin gains most of the important Swashbuckler abilities like Precise Strike and Nimble at level 4, and if you have the same abilities from levels of Swashbuckler, they add together.
So trading 4 Swashbuckler for 4 Virtuous Bravo Paladin, you keep all the Precise Strike and Nimble. You lose 4 levels of other Swashbuckler stuff, like Swashbuckler Weapon Training, but it's not really that important. You gain 4 levels of Paladin stuff like Smite Evil.
Kata Master Monk loses one level of Swashbuckler abilities, but gets Flurry of Blows. You have to trade charisma for wisdom, but using wisdom and having levels of Monk and Paladin makes your Will saves way, way higher, which is really good.
Flurry just adds BAB from other classes, and flurry always counts Monk levels as full BAB. So if you are Kata Master Monk 1/ Swashbuckler 4/ Virtuous Bravo Paladin 4 and you use Flurry of Blows, you count as having 1+4+4 = 9 BAB (same as pure Swashbuckler), and you trade 2 attack bonus to gain another attack.
I can post an example build in a bit.
Cheers that would be really helpful.
Oh well, there's always using a scimitar, which is technically stronger on a Swashbuckler anyhow.
I feel this goes against the concept - even a large Scimitar does but 1d8 damage.
The work-around bastard sword option is to take Kata Master Monk. This permits using a Crusader's Flurry weapon with Swashbuckler features regardless of what that weapon is.
Only for those Swashbuckler abilities granted by the Kata Master. Which is... panache recovery. Still doesn't work with Precise Strike and Swashbuckler Weapon Training, unless I'm missing something.
Virtuous Bravo Paladin stacks with Swashbuckler levels for deeds and provides Channel at level 4, so a Cleric level is unnecessary.
If we're willing to play a Paladin, there's basically no reason to take any Swashbuckler levels. Besides alignment/Paladin Code issues, Virtuous Bravo is to Swashbuckler like unMonk is to cMonk: Unless you want to use an archetype that notably alters playstyle, there's no reason to use the original class.
Versatile Design is sickly-sweet good; no wonder PFS doesn't allow it.
Sadly, it's indeed no wonder - martial's can't have nice things, after all!
Kata Master restricts using Ki for deeds outside the Archetype, but it doesn't say the same thing about using a Monk weapon as far as I know.
I agree that scimitar partly changes the concept. Of course, wielding an oversized scimitar is still very thematic in the same way. You don't get as much of a die bonus, but Swashbuckler works better overall with high-crit weapons anyhow, and you've still got an oversized sword Tiefling Swashbuckler.
Going full Paladin certainly works, but it does lose bonus feats and weapon training. Splitting training/feats and Smite means being a little more balanced, full Paladin means stronger Smite but weaker otherwise.
On consideration, a better plan for making extra attacks with a bastard sword would be to just use some Ninja, since they get bonus Ki attacks with charisma that work with any weapon starting at level 2:
1S. Swashbuckler's Finesse / Bastard Sword
2N
3N. Ki Pool / Ninja Trick: Weapon Focus / Slashing Grace
...and ready to go with more Swashbuckler.
Later you can take more Ninja or just Extra Ki and Extra Ninja Trick if you want to build up your abilities with Ki, like Vanishing Trick or Shadow Clone.
"A kata master can use an unarmed strike or monk special weapon in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds." Not for any such abilities you possess, only for those "granted" - I'm very sure that means by that archetype. It also only works with monk weapons, so it still requires Crusader's Flurry.
Going full Paladin certainly works, but it does lose bonus feats and weapon training. Splitting training/feats and Smite means being a little more balanced, full Paladin means stronger Smite but weaker otherwise.
It's not just Smite you gain from Paladin levels, there's also better saves, Lay on Hands, Divine Bond, and Aura of Resolve. SWT is basically two feats (Possessed Hand and Improved Critical). Yeah, your offense when not smiting is a bit weaker, but your defense is so much stronger that you end up with a better overall character.
"A kata master can use an unarmed strike or monk special weapon in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds." Not for any such abilities you possess, only for those "granted" - I'm very sure that means by that archetype. It also only works with monk weapons, so it still requires Crusader's Flurry.
The phrase "for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds" in no way rules out things 'granted' by other classes. If it only said "for Swashbuckler class features" without the word 'granted' it would sound odd on a Monk Archetype.
Compare:
At 4th level, a kata master can treat ki points as panache points for any swashbuckler deed gained through this archetype. This ability modifies ki pool.
If Kata Master Panache meant "granted through this Archetype", why didn't they say so, as they did later?
I agree it's not as clear as it should be. However, read literally it's totally permissive; to argue that it's not permissive you have to read an implication into the text.
Yep. By RAW, it doesn't even have to be a one-handed weapon as far as I can see (which is where Versatile Design gets ridiculous, since it'll let you flurry with anything for the what-were-they-thinking? price of +500gp).
Weapon Group and special weapon property aren't technically the same thing...
Yep. By RAW, it doesn't even have to be a one-handed weapon as far as I can see (which is where Versatile Design gets ridiculous, since it'll let you flurry with anything for the what-were-they-thinking? price of +500gp).
Using Versatile Design, would it technically be possible to make a Huge Bastard Sword which I should have to use 2 hands for at that size a 1 handed? Or is there any other way I could pull that off and possibly ditch the Flurry?
I don't get what Versatile Design is supposed to do there, as none of the stuff you do (apart from flurry-stuff) has anything to do with weapon group.
To my knowledge, there isn't any way in the game to wield a non-light huge weapon as a medium character.
Weapon Group and special weapon property aren't technically the same thing...
To make it clear, they're completely different, utterly unrelated things. There are monk weapons not in the monk weapon group, and weapons in the monk weapon group that aren't monk weapons. The CRB description for Flurry of Blows says you need to use a "monk special weapon" - the weapon group doesn't say anything about "special", but the weapon description section does (the later is also what the index lists as the page for "monk weapon").
Unless a feat or class feature contains the word "group", it doesn't interact with weapon groups. A weapon itself never changes in anyway, regardless of what weapon groups it's included or excluded in.