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So, I love Treat Wounds. Haven't had a chance to dig into every aspect but it at least starts on addressing my main issue with PF2, the adventuring day. Maybe fixes 90% of it if the math works out.
Any tweaks people think it needs?
I would like to see an option to reduce your level for the purpose of both healing and DC, if you want a more reliable recovery but don't need a huge number. So a level 15 medic could act as level 5 if they only needed to top up 5 hp, rather than try their normal DC they could fail.
Especially important since a secondary medic might never increase their wis, prof category, or item bonus, meaning they fail *more* from level 5 to 15, where their bonus increases by 10 and the DC by 12, under the current system.
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I feel like Battle Medic and Natural Medicine, instead of their current rules, which are odd and not especially good, should interact with Treat Wounds. Maybe just allowing it in-combat but only a certain number of times per day (once per target, for example), or something like that.
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I feel like Battle Medic and Natural Medicine, instead of their current rules, which are odd and not especially good, should interact with Treat Wounds. Maybe just allowing it in-combat but only a certain number of times per day (once per target, for example), or something like that.
I think they should interact with persistent damage also, allowing a successful check to reduce the DC to 10 (instead of 15 - which any action will do), or even remove all persistent damage once a day.
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I like the suggestion for a feat for alchemists that allows them to use Int rather than Wis for healing. Makes sense for the class
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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It seems weird to me that critically failing bolsters the target only against "your Treat Wounds", rather than just Treat Wounds in general.
I feel like the critical fail is a decent way to keep it from being just guaranteed healing for the whole party, but being able to tag in another character to heal just feels off to me for some reason.
I noticed that Treat Wounds doesn't remove/reduce the Wounded condition.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I think I saw this suggestion on the other thread, and I liked it. The DC should be based on the level of the creature you're healing, rather than your own level. For most cases this would be the same thing, but it would allow for high-level NPCs being able to easily heal the party, or low-level PCs struggling to save a high-level creature. That seems more interesting to me.
I noticed that Treat Wounds doesn't remove/reduce the Wounded condition.
That's handled in the Wounded condition itself.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I noticed that Treat Wounds doesn't remove/reduce the Wounded condition.
In the description of the Wounded condition, it says, "The wounded condition ends if someone attends to you with Treat Wounds, or if you are healed to full Hit Points and rest for 10 minutes."
That said, it would probably be a good idea to call this out in the Treat Wounds ability description as well.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I feel like Battle Medic and Natural Medicine, instead of their current rules, which are odd and not especially good, should interact with Treat Wounds. Maybe just allowing it in-combat but only a certain number of times per day (once per target, for example), or something like that.
Natural Medicine could very easily just become, "You can perform the Treat Wounds action using the Nature skill instead of the Medicine skill."
No need to reinvent the wheel, and characters who are better at Nature than Medicine will find it quite useful.
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Natural Medicine could very easily just become, "You can perform the Treat Wounds action using the Nature skill instead of the Medicine skill."
No need to reinvent the wheel, and characters who are better at Nature than Medicine will find it quite useful.
I'd be totally fine with that. My main advocacy is for the Feats to actually be based on/improvements on Treat Wounds now that it exists. That version would definitely qualify.
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I think I saw this suggestion on the other thread, and I liked it. The DC should be based on the level of the creature you're healing, rather than your own level. For most cases this would be the same thing, but it would allow for high-level NPCs being able to easily heal the party, or low-level PCs struggling to save a high-level creature. That seems more interesting to me.
Natural Medicine could very easily just become, "You can perform the Treat Wounds action using the Nature skill instead of the Medicine skill."
No need to reinvent the wheel, and characters who are better at Nature than Medicine will find it quite useful.
Noted, thanks!
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One more thing I would like is for treat wounds to be based off of the Easy scale on table 10-2
What I noticed is that as you go the a higher difficulty, not only is the base number larger, but it also scales faster.
What I found is that with the same equipment, my monk needed an 8 at level 5 to Treat Wounds, and then an 8 at level 10.
So really he didn't seem to get better. He does heal more hitpoints now, but it would be nice if the DC didn't scale with you, but rather you outpaced it a little bit.
I could imagine something like easy DC+4 or +5, so that as you level up, your odds of succeeding and crit succeeding go up.
Battle Medic might actually need to lose the automatic bolster bit now, or at least have it be reduced to a fail or worse.
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I'd like to see Alchemists get a class feat that allows them to add Int to the amount of damage healed by infused life elixirs(so 1d6 + Int mod instead of just 1d6), but it only lasts 1 day. This would allow them to take on the main healer role in a party if they wish.
I like Treat Wounds but I'll have to see if it results in too much rolling when I play test it. It might need to be adjusted.
Battle Medic might actually need to lose the automatic bolster bit now, or at least have it be reduced to a fail or worse.
I'll point out that Battle Medic is the "do it in combat" feat. I'm fine with bolster on this ability (maybe it only needs to be an hour, maybe it needs to only apply on a success, I'm not sure, but in general, its fine).
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I would like to see an option to reduce your level for the purpose of both healing and DC, if you want a more reliable recovery but don't need a huge number. So a level 15 medic could act as level 5 if they only needed to top up 5 hp, rather than try their normal DC they could fail.Especially important since a secondary medic might never increase their wis, prof category, or item bonus, meaning they fail *more* from level 5 to 15, where their bonus increases by 10 and the DC by 12, under the current system.
I just wrote exactly this preference--to be able to reduce DC in exchange for healing less damage--in another thread, as I hadn't read this one at the time. If it doesn't get made a rule, I'm house-ruling it 100% of the time, but I genuinely think it has to be a rule in the game.
Other than this issue, I like Treat Wounds.
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I would like to see an option to reduce your level for the purpose of both healing and DC, if you want a more reliable recovery but don't need a huge number. So a level 15 medic could act as level 5 if they only needed to top up 5 hp, rather than try their normal DC they could fail.Especially important since a secondary medic might never increase their wis, prof category, or item bonus, meaning they fail *more* from level 5 to 15, where their bonus increases by 10 and the DC by 12, under the current system.
I just wrote exactly this preference--to be able to reduce DC in exchange for healing less damage--in another thread, as I hadn't read this one at the time. If it doesn't get made a rule, I'm house-ruling it 100% of the time, but I genuinely think it has to be a rule in the game.
Other than this issue, I like Treat Wounds.
The problem with this idea, is that it makes it easier to crit on the check, which might actually make reducing the dc to reduce the damage healed... actually make you heal more damage(on average due to the increased odds of criting). This could be changed by removing or changing the crit success effect though.
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I think I saw this suggestion on the other thread, and I liked it. The DC should be based on the level of the creature you're healing, rather than your own level. For most cases this would be the same thing, but it would allow for high-level NPCs being able to easily heal the party, or low-level PCs struggling to save a high-level creature. That seems more interesting to me.
The problem with this Idea is that it penalizes characters in need of healing for being higher level, leading to the kinda absurd “Frank died becuase he leveled after that fight!”.
I'd like it if the amount healed would simply go off the number rolled. It probably means giving up on the four tiers of success here, but I don’t mind it not applying to everything.
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The problem with this idea, is that it makes it easier to crit on the check, which might actually make reducing the dc to reduce the damage healed... actually make you heal more damage(on average due to the increased odds of criting). This could be changed by removing or changing the crit success effect though.
I would like to see an option to reduce your level for the purpose of both healing and DC, if you want a more reliable recovery but don't need a huge number. So a level 15 medic could act as level 5 if they only needed to top up 5 hp, rather than try their normal DC they could fail.Especially important since a secondary medic might never increase their wis, prof category, or item bonus, meaning they fail *more* from level 5 to 15, where their bonus increases by 10 and the DC by 12, under the current system.
I just wrote exactly this preference--to be able to reduce DC in exchange for healing less damage--in another thread, as I hadn't read this one at the time. If it doesn't get made a rule, I'm house-ruling it 100% of the time, but I genuinely think it has to be a rule in the game.
Other than this issue, I like Treat Wounds.
Yeah, we could either have no critical success benefit if they use a lower DC, or else modify how the critical success worked (but the former is pretty simple).
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Sooooo a random healer can heal a level 1 arrow wound but "somehow" the same arrow wound on a level 20 suddenly is an impossible task for 98% of all the Golarion Healers ?
The chance that the wound is the "same" is basically zero. Anything that can inflict a survivable wound on a 1st level character is not going to be able to hit a 20th level character.
Also the other way around (which we have right now) is even sillier - a level 20 character faces a much higher DC to heal that simple arrow wound on a level 1 character than a level 1 healer does.
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Sooooo a random healer can heal a level 1 arrow wound but "somehow" the same arrow wound on a level 20 suddenly is an impossible task for 98% of all the Golarion Healers ?The chance that the wound is the "same" is basically zero. Anything that can inflict a survivable wound on a 1st level character is not going to be able to hit a 20th level character.
Also the other way around (which we have right now) is even sillier - a level 20 character faces a much higher DC to heal that simple arrow wound on a level 1 character than a level 1 healer does.
Well, they get 20 times the healing, too.
I am on the side that says they should be able to trade down on DC by trading down on the amount of healing, however.
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For sure, I agree with others that Treat Wounds DCs shouldn't be tied to the user's Level.
That is an obvious flaw.
However, by tying the DC to the target's Level, now the game is implying that treating the wounds of a more experience character is more difficult than treating a similar wound on an inexperienced character.
That still feels wrong.
Why should it be more difficult to treat a higher level creature?
The nature of the wound should dictate how difficult it is to treat.
Otherwise, it is gamey nonsense.
I submit that Treat Wounds should have a tiered DC based on how much damage the target has taken.
Perhaps add some more conditions besides Wounded.
If HP is below 75% they get the Hurt condition.
If HP is below 50% they get the Injured condition.
If HP is below 25% they get the Impaired condition.
Each condition would increase the base DC of Treat Wounds by an appropriate amount.
I would also tie the amount of healing to the severity of the condition.
None: Cannot use Treat Wounds. (This limits the use of Treat Wounds)
Hurt: Success, 1x Level; Critical Success, 1.5x Level.
Injured: Success, 1.5x Level; Critical Success, 2x Level.
Impaired: Success, 2x Level; Critical Success, 3x Level.
My reasoning to disallow the use of Treat Wounds on a character that has no damage condition is to prevent the over use of the skill.
This helps mitigate the 1 battle adventuring day while also assuaging the party from just taking an hour to heal back up to full after every battle, aka the stop-and-go adventuring day.
Additionally, the amount of time it takes to use Treat Wounds should depend on the most severely injured target's condition.
For example if at least one target is Injured, the time increases to 30 min.
However, I would also give the user of Treat Wounds the option to treat any target as if they were of a lower tier condition in order to save time and reduce the DC.
This approach would incentivize using a combination of magical healing and mundane healing, but still leave a reasonably effective mundane solution with robust rules.
Perhaps this is needlessly complex, but then again, should the practice of medicine not be complex?
It would certainly make it a lot more satisfying to master it's use.
Or maybe not.
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On the stream, it was mentioned that basing the DC on the healer was done to prevent multiple rolls, and that retuning it to the highest level target instead might be a thing.
Rather than focusing on the DC, I am more concerned about Skill Feats.
Currently, the time taken for Treat Wounds, Repair an Object and Identify an Item is the same.
As soon as skill feats are taken into account, however, things change, and while I agree on nonmagical healing taking time, I agree less on the party having to wait on the healer once they're all done.
So, rather than changing the time too much, I thought of doing things a little differently, working on targets instead.
Camp Medic v1 [Skill Feat 1] - Trained in Medicine
When using the Treat Wounds activity, you can choose to only take one minute. If you do so, however, you can only treat one creature per use of the task.
If you are Expert in Medicine, you can treat up to two creatures in one minute. If you are Master, three. If you are Legendary, six.
This makes you faster, but not too fast - another version could see you improve the healing rather than the number. I feel like both could help contribute to the feeling of an expert healer without stepping too much on magical healing's toes.
What do multiple rolls have to do with the DC being based on the Healer?
There is nothing stopping them from saying the Healer rolls once and it is compared to each patient's DC.
No extra rolling required, makes more sense, and barely takes any more time to resolve.
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The DC is based on the healer, I assume, because a default success (and a critical success, for that matter) is more hit points healed than for a lower-level healer; the task is in that sense harder, you're trying to heal more in one go.
I like the idea of being able to attempt a lower-level heal, with a lower DC, but as pointed out earlier that could be a problem if crits were the same. I'd probably say (or may house-rule) that if you take a lower DC for a better chance on a quick-and-dirty heal attempt, that you can't get a critical benefit. That said, I haven't looked at the math with the new DCs, but it seems like an easy enough fix.
I'm not sure the crit effect for using lower DCs is all that significant.
For example, instead of healing at [level 11, DC 25] and instead attempt a [level 3, DC 15] and crit you're only healing 12 HP instead of 11 (against someone with +1 CON). Against +4 con its 21 HP instead of 44.
Instead of [level 20, 36] you're attempting [level 12, DC 26]. If you crit you heal 48 HP instead of 20 (against someone with +1 CON). Against +4 con its 84 HP instead of 80.
And remember, in order to crit against the lower DC you'd normal-succeed against the higher DC. If you miss the higher DC you at least get a smaller base healing from the lower DC.
(All numbers assume that "your level" is reduced in all contexts: if you're rolling against a lower level DC then the healing is reduced to that level as well: So a level 11 heal with DC 25 only heals 11*CON hp and when crit, heals an additional 11*3 even if you're actually level 15).
For sure, I agree with others that Treat Wounds DCs shouldn't be tied to the user's Level.
That is an obvious flaw.However, by tying the DC to the target's Level, now the game is implying that treating the wounds of a more experience character is more difficult than treating a similar wound on an inexperienced character.
That still feels wrong.
Why should it be more difficult to treat a higher level creature?
The nature of the wound should dictate how difficult it is to treat.
Otherwise, it is gamey nonsense.I submit that Treat Wounds should have a tiered DC based on how much damage the target has taken.
Perhaps add some more conditions besides Wounded.
If HP is below 75% they get the Hurt condition.
If HP is below 50% they get the Injured condition.
If HP is below 25% they get the Impaired condition.
Each condition would increase the base DC of Treat Wounds by an appropriate amount.I would also tie the amount of healing to the severity of the condition.
None: Cannot use Treat Wounds. (This limits the use of Treat Wounds)
Hurt: Success, 1x Level; Critical Success, 1.5x Level.
Injured: Success, 1.5x Level; Critical Success, 2x Level.
Impaired: Success, 2x Level; Critical Success, 3x Level.My reasoning to disallow the use of Treat Wounds on a character that has no damage condition is to prevent the over use of the skill.
This helps mitigate the 1 battle adventuring day while also assuaging the party from just taking an hour to heal back up to full after every battle, aka the stop-and-go adventuring day.Additionally, the amount of time it takes to use Treat Wounds should depend on the most severely injured target's condition.
For example if at least one target is Injured, the time increases to 30 min.However, I would also give the user of Treat Wounds the option to treat any target as if they were of a lower tier condition in order to save time and reduce the DC.
This approach would incentivize using a combination of magical healing and mundane healing, but still leave a...
I think there is the seed of a good idea hear, but it’s too complicated.
How about having a new condition:
Wounded
When reduced to 0 hit points for the first time, you gain this condition as “Wounded 1”. Each time you are reduced to 0 hit points after this time your Wounded condition increases by 1.
The Wounded condition is counted as a conditional penalty to treat deadly wounds.
The condition itself can be healed at the rate of 1 per 24 hours rest, 2 per heightened restoration or by casting regeneration.
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So, I love Treat Wounds. Haven't had a chance to dig into every aspect but it at least starts on addressing my main issue with PF2, the adventuring day. Maybe fixes 90% of it if the math works out.
Any tweaks people think it needs?
I would like to see an option to reduce your level for the purpose of both healing and DC, if you want a more reliable recovery but don't need a huge number. So a level 15 medic could act as level 5 if they only needed to top up 5 hp, rather than try their normal DC they could fail.
Especially important since a secondary medic might never increase their wis, prof category, or item bonus, meaning they fail *more* from level 5 to 15, where their bonus increases by 10 and the DC by 12, under the current system.
Agreed, this is a great improvement. Thanks Paizo!
One more thing I would like is for treat wounds to be based off of the Easy scale on table 10-2
What I noticed is that as you go the a higher difficulty, not only is the base number larger, but it also scales faster.
What I found is that with the same equipment, my monk needed an 8 at level 5 to Treat Wounds, and then an 8 at level 10.
So really he didn't seem to get better. He does heal more hitpoints now, but it would be nice if the DC didn't scale with you, but rather you outpaced it a little bit.
I could imagine something like easy DC+4 or +5, so that as you level up, your odds of succeeding and crit succeeding go up.
This emphasizes quite well how stupid everything scaling with level truly is. I'd much rather nothing scale than everything. People argue it's a better way of implementing skill points and BAB. I say get rid of it all and only have TEML proficiency (but re-worked to 0 . +2 . +4 . +6).