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Okay, on page 191 of the core rules it says:
A fusion seal’s cost is based on the highest-level weapon the fusion seal can affect, and it is equal to 110% of the price of a weapon fusion for a weapon of that level.
So that means if you want to put a level 1 Calling Fusion on a level 7 weapon it would only cost 120 credits.
HOWEVER, in the Armory on page 61 it says:
The price of a weapon fusion depends on the item level of the weapon into which it is being installed, as detailed on the Weapon Fusion Prices table on page 63.
So that means if you want to put a Calling Fusion on a level 7 weapon you need to upgrade that Fusion Seal to level 7 which costs 1500 credits.
HOWEVER, on page 192 of the core rules it says:
Multiple Fusions and Multiple Targets
You can place multiple fusions on the same weapon, but only if the weapon’s item level is equal to or greater than the combined total of all the fusions’ item levels. A weapon cannot hold or benefit from additional fusions beyond this limit. A fusion that applies an effect to attacks applies it to all targets for spread weapons, automatic fire, explode weapons, and other effects with multiple targets.
So if you need to match the weapon fusion to the level of the weapon … how can you put multiple fusions on a single weapon?
Also Herolab is enforcing the rule that you need to make the fusion the same level as the weapon itself. Which means you need to match the level of the fusion to the level of the weapon making it IMPOSSIBLE to put more than one fusion on a weapon (seal or otherwise).
Basically I am trying to install two level 1 Fusion Seals and one level 3 Fusion Seal on a level 7 weapon. Herolab says I can only install one Fusion Seal and it needs to upgraded to level 7 to be installed. And the rules contradict each other.
So … which rule is correct?
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A [fusion SEAL] is a slightly different item than a [fusion].
A [fusion seal] is a talisman that pops on and off a weapon. It has an upper level limit for an item it can affect because it can pop off and on different weapons up to a certain level. The pricing assumes you'll be putting it on a weapon of its maximum level.
A [fusion] has a cost based on the level of the weapon its going on.
Don't use fusion seals at all. They really don't serve their design purpose. Just use fusions and see if that fixes the problem.
Let's start by clearly defining our terms as this will help us understand the rules with less confusion.
Fusion - pre packaged add on that can be added to any weapon.
Fusion seal - a fusion container that allows a fusion to be transferred.
Weapon level - the level of the weapon for which the fusion is intended. This sets the price of the fusion.
Fusion level - determines how many fusions/ fusion seals can affect a given weapon.
So fusions and fusion seals are two distinct items. A fusion is the magic, the seal simply contains it and allows it to be transferred easily.
Fusion costs are determined by the weapon level. Once a fusion is created and added to a weapon the fusion is set at that level and can't be changed. Example. I put calling on a lvl 10 weapon. It costs me 3,580 credits for this fusion (3,938 if I had first placed it in a fusion seal). This is now a Calling fusion (lvl 10). The item level of the fusion itself remains level 1 so you could add additional fusions up to item level 10 total. Each fusion however costs the same as the Calling fusion regardless of it's individual fusion level.
You can't put this Calling fusion (lvl 10) on a level 11 or higher weapon. In fact, no fusions can be carried over to higher level weapons even if placed in a seal. Once created for a specific level, the fusion is locked at that level.
Does this help?
P.S. Herolabs is in error. The rules clearly state that you can use multiple fusions on a single weapon so long as the sum fusion item level does not exceed the weapons item.
To continue my example from before you could have a bleedimg(5), called(1), defiant(1), dispelling(3) level 10 weapon.
Each fusion would cost 3,580 credits and would become a fusion for level 10 or below weapons. This is written as the fusion named followed by the level of weapon it can affect. So each of these 4 fusions would be fusion x (lvl 10) indicating that they could affect any weapon of level 10 or below.
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what you should do in that case is put the fusions on a lower level weapon and then transfer them over, its usually cheaper
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What's tripping you up is that there are two different items, and a lot of words get reused. A fusion is different than a fusion seal
A fusion is placed directly on a weapon and costs an amount based on the item level of the weapon, not the level of the fusion (see table on page 191). The weapon must have an Item Level equal to or greater than that of the fusion. For example putting the disruptive fusion on a tactical knife (item level 7) costs 1560 credits. You can't put a disruptive fusion on a survival knife because the knife has an Item Level of 1 while the fusion is level 3.
A fusion seal is a transferable fusion. It is a fusion that can be placed and moved to any weapon that has an item level less than the level of the seal. If you have a disruptive fusion seal (Item Level 7), you can put it on any weapon of Item Level 7 or lower. (But at least Item Level 3, because disruptive is a level 3 fusion.) You can move it around without paying any credits.
The seal's cost would be 110% of the cost of the fusion. So 1,716 credits for our example.
There's one other rule at play here, and that's that if you put multiple fusions on a weapon their total level (1 for called, 3 for disruptive, etc.) cannot exceed the Item Level of the weapon. This gets really confusing in the case of fusion seals, since a disruptive fusion seal (Item Level 7) counts as 3 levels (the level of disruptive) for this purpose, but 7 levels for the maximum Item Level of weapons it can be placed on.
HeroLab appears to be wrong in some things but right in others. You can't put a level 1 fusion seal on a level 7 weapon. The seal must be at least Item Level 7 even if it contains a Level 1 fusion. But it shouldn't be saying you can only put one seal on it. I don't use HL for Starfinder so I can't check, but it appears to be doing something odd.
If you want to put two level 1 fusions and one level 3 fusion on a level 7 weapon, the cost should be (1560 x 3 = 4680). If you want to put them on as Item Level 7 fusion seals the cost would be 10% more, or 5148. You can move any of the seals to weapons of Item Level 7 or less, but never to one of Item Level 8 or more.
edit: Wow, Ninjas!
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You can't put this Calling fusion (lvl 10) on a level 11 or higher weapon. In fact, no fusions can be carried over to higher level weapons even if placed in a seal. Once created for a specific level, the fusion is locked at that level.
This is incorrect. You can transfer a Called fusion from an Item Level 10 weapon to an Item Level 11 weapon. The cost is half the cost of a new fusion on a Item Level 11 weapon, or (4,880/2 = 2,440 credits).
You cannot transfer a Called fusion seal (Item Level 10) from an Item Level 10 weapon to an Item Level 11 weapon. The fusion seal's Item Level is locked at 10.
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So each of these 4 fusions would be fusion x (lvl 10) indicating that they could affect any weapon of level 10 or below.
Magyar5, I think you are tripping up on the difference between fusions and fusion seals as well. The level of a fusion has nothing to do with the maximum Item Level of weapons they can be put on. Only fusion seals have a maximum weapon Item Level.
A [fusion SEAL] is a slightly different item than a [fusion].
A [fusion seal] is a talisman that pops on and off a weapon. It has an upper level limit for an item it can affect because it can pop off and on different weapons up to a certain level. The pricing assumes you'll be putting it on a weapon of its maximum level.
A [fusion] has a cost based on the level of the weapon its going on.
Don't use fusion seals at all. They really don't serve their design purpose. Just use fusions and see if that fixes the problem.
The exception is high level weapons that incorporate djezet, which lets you put seals of a lower than usual level (and therefore much cheaper) on a weapon. This can make sense when you're rich and have multiple decent weapons and fusions that you might want to customize for different missions.
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You are correct Belafon on all accounts. Thank you for catching my slip up on seals. Much appreciated.
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Reminds me of D&D, where somewhere in the depths of the world on the 3rd level of the dungeon a 6th level Cleric is casting a 4th level Detect Lies to determine if the Dwarven Thief they captured is on the level when he says "aigh, this corridor ain't level, it's leading us down!"
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Reminds me of D&D, where somewhere in the depths of the world on the 3rd level of the dungeon a 6th level Cleric is casting a 4th level Detect Lies to determine if the Dwarven Thief they captured is on the level when he says "aigh, this corridor ain't level, it's leading us down!"
Really levels the playing field, doesn't it?
Ok, so I’m confused by this as well. If I can transfer fusions as I want, why would I ever purchase a fusion seal (ignoring the cost difference)?
Ok, so I’m confused by this as well. If I can transfer fusions as I want, why would I ever purchase a fusion seal (ignoring the cost difference)?
You wouldn't.
That's the issue with fusion seals.
Right. Fusion seals do not make sense as a purchase for adventurers. They only make sense for organizations stocking an armory and issuing them for missions, which may result in adventurers acquiring them in ways that have nothing to do with retail purchase.
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Right. Fusion seals do not make sense as a purchase for adventurers. They only make sense for organizations stocking an armory and issuing them for missions, which may result in adventurers acquiring them in ways that have nothing to do with retail purchase.
Shop smart. Shop murdermart
(seriously, if you're using a found loot system, don't spend credits on guns or armor. Get em the old fashioned way: off of bodies that were "absolutely like that when you got there")
Ok, so I’m confused by this as well. If I can transfer fusions as I want, why would I ever purchase a fusion seal (ignoring the cost difference)?
Welcome to Starfinder. It really is a good game. But there are a couple of gotchas.
Also, don't start a 1st level character with an ability score of 17.
And if you do like the idea of fusion seal items, see if the GM will houserule transferring the fusion on them to a higher tier fusion seal the same way it works for transferring on weapons. That at least mitigates the cost problem.
Ok, so I’m confused by this as well. If I can transfer fusions as I want, why would I ever purchase a fusion seal (ignoring the cost difference)?Welcome to Starfinder. It really is a good game. But there are a couple of gotchas.
Also, don't start a 1st level character with an ability score of 17.
And if you do like the idea of fusion seal items, see if the GM will houserule transferring the fusion on them to a higher tier fusion seal the same way it works for transferring on weapons. That at least mitigates the cost problem.
Oh no, I get that they are hideously expensive,
I guess what I meant was “what is the intended purpose of these fusion seals in the game if a regular infusion does the same job?”
Oh no, I get that they are hideously expensive,
I guess what I meant was “what is the intended purpose of these fusion seals in the game if a regular infusion does the same job?”
Guessing i would say there were two ideas for how to do enchantments in this game and they both got in but a caveat here a word choice there and one wound up strictly better than the other
I can see it in world-building terms - they make sense for organizations to be able to equip their forces. They can also be a handy way to have an NPC provide a particular fusion for some specific purpose in a campaign, like Illuminating or Merciful.
Except they don't. They take 24 hours to function, or 10 minutes to move a fusion.
They do, if they're issued when a mission is being planned, not 10 minutes before everything goes crazy.
Right. I see. If you find a fusion as loot, can you whack that on a weapon for free using 10 minutes and an arcana skill or does that still use a cost?
You probably don't find a fusion lying around that isn't part of a weapon or a seal. A free floating fusion isn't a thing that has the kind of definition you want in your loot.
If you did, you would have to use up a transfer cost to apply it to something, and also would have no really good way to determine what it was worth until you did so, if you were inclined to sell it, instead.
They do, if they're issued when a mission is being planned, not 10 minutes before everything goes crazy.
If you know how they're going to go crazy sure, but when do we ever get that kind of notice?
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They do, if they're issued when a mission is being planned, not 10 minutes before everything goes crazy.If you know how they're going to go crazy sure, but when do we ever get that kind of notice?
For world building purposes, and reasons organizations would keep a stock of fusion seals, the correct answer would be that you would almost always know you were sending your people out on a mission more than 24 hours out.
Sure, SFS scenarios tend to not include an extra day a lot of the time, but, as much as I've enjoyed a lot of them, that doesn't mean the way the Starfinders set up missions there makes any sense. Aside from grabbing whatever random agents are there, this week, regardless of qualifications for the specific missions, there is not reason for a lot of those mission briefings not to hapen long enough in advance for fusion seals to attune.
So fusion seals still make sense for any organization run by sane, competent people. Seals just aren't for adventurers, and their nonsense club.
Right. I see. If you find a fusion as loot, can you whack that on a weapon for free using 10 minutes and an arcana skill or does that still use a cost?
If you find an unused fusion you can have a character trained in engineering or mysticism affix it to an eligible weapon for the cost given in the table. There's no cost savings compared to making the fusion yourself but it does mean you don't have to have as many ranks in mysticism as the fusion's level like you would if you were making it yourself. Given how equipment levels work in Starfinder I wouldn't expect that to be much help.
So fusion seals still make sense for any organization run by sane, competent people. Seals just aren't for adventurers, and their nonsense club.
That doesn't seem like a likely explanation, given things like food and housing are written from a pretty adventurer centric point of view.
I'm not trying to say that it is what the authors were thinking when they write how fusion seals work.
I am saying that it is where, in the setting, the items they wrote make sense.
P.S. Herolabs is in error. The rules clearly state that you can use multiple fusions on a single weapon so long as the sum fusion item level does not exceed the weapons item.
I use HeroLab, and I think Stonesnake is mis-stating it, rather than being an issue with HeroLab. It will let you put a Called fusion on a level 6 weapon and charges the Level 6 fusion price to do so, which I think is correct. And since that is a level 1 fusion, it would let you put another 5 levels worth of fusions on ... charging the Level 6 fusion cost each time. I think it works like it is supposed to, it is just that the rules are confusing.
The only thing I have found it won't do with regard to fusions is calculate the cost if you move a fusion from one weapon to a higher-level weapon. You have to calculate the cost and enter it manually.
I'd say it also worth noting that a significant percentage of the scenarios do allow mission briefing, followed by purchases, and at least 24 hours before you get to the actual site. In that case, fusion seals are a viable choice.
They're not really. You won't be popping them on and off your weapon for long before you have to upgrade your weapon and then your collection of fusion seals won't help you.
Thats IF you can tell which ones you need from the mission briefing. Which isn't always a given.
Fusions seals are still useful under a handful of circumstances.
1 - You find one not attached to anything, and have a weapon with "room" to add it.
2 - You carry a bunch of them with you to hand out to party members for specific purposes (had a Sarenite Priest with several "Merciful" seals of varying item-levels at one of my Gen Con tables because he always wanted to urge the value of defeating enemies without killing them).
Relevant text from Fusion Seals:
It is also possible to place a weapon fusion into a physical object, called a fusion seal, which can then be affixed to a specific weapon and even moved among different weapons.
Removing a fusion seal and transferring it to a new weapon takes only 1 minute and does not require any specific skill training, but the fusion doesn’t function until the seal has been in place on a weapon for 24 hours.
Poorly written/phrased? No doubt. But there are now numerous published adventures where Paizo has fusion seals attached/bolted onto PC weapons (after being taken out of a satchel of off a shelf in a shop) and the seals take effect immediately. The 24-hour restriction (again, poorly worded) only appears in the sentence that discusses removing a seal from weapon A and then placing it onto weapon B. A "fresh" seal, by precedent, appears to function immediately when placed on a viable weapon.
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If you know how they're going to go crazy sure, but when do we ever get that kind of notice?
1. You're going on a mission to this moon where civilians are rioting. It's going to take a few days to get there via Drift, but it's important that if things go south, you don't murder any of the civilians, so we are providing you with merciful fusion seals.
2. One of the local predators on the planet you're heading to is a swarm of insect like creatures that migrate and eat everything in their path. We're providing you with some AoE fusion seals to help you deal with them should you run across them.
3. This mission is covert and it's important that you can get in and out of the embassy without being noticed. Here are some glamour fusion seals to help you sneak your weapon past the guards. You leave tomorrow.
4. I'm not going to lie to you here, maggots, the brass are sending you into literal honest to Weydan hell. But they want you to be able to hurt the devils when you get there, so here are a bunch of holy fusion seals. The armory will expect you to bring them back, dead or alive, at the end of this mission.
In a well run organization with actual intelligence and planning, there are a lot of mission briefings where giving out fusion seals would make sense. Not all of them, certainly, but enough that there would be a market for the seals.