Greater Shadow, Shadow steal

[Twilight_Arcanum]

I had a question when running Affair at Sombrefell regarding the shadows shadow steal. What are the rules for running the newly spawned shadows? Do they act like summoned monsters? Minions? Normal monsters?
During play and needing a quick answer I ruled that they worked like minions since they were "under the control" and would become "fully autonomous" when their orginal owner died. This ruling meant there was no great need for the shadows to bother spawning even more as they didnt have enough actions to really command them.

The fight was still relatively tough for the party of 2 paladins and 2 clerics. One of the paladins hit enfeebled 9, the other enfeebled 7, and a cleric got down to enfeebled 3.

[Mark Seifter]

That is a lot of enfeeble! At least the paladins hit the cap on the actual conditional penalty after the -4, but still.

Technically, they are not minions since they don't have the minion trait, so they could all be attacking, but then again, the little ones canhave some trouble hitting level 7 characters, even with TAC.

[Colette Brunel]

Mark Seifter wrote:

That is a lot of enfeeble! At least the paladins hit the cap on the actual conditional penalty after the -4, but still.

Is there an actual cap on conditional penalties? Page 291 never actually says that, does it?

[shroudb]

Mark Seifter wrote:

That is a lot of enfeeble! At least the paladins hit the cap on the actual conditional penalty after the -4, but still.

Technically, they are not minions since they don't have the minion trait, so they could all be attacking, but then again, the little ones canhave some trouble hitting level 7 characters, even with TAC.

Is there really a hard cap on conditional bonuses/penalties at +/-4 as implied in

Quote:

Conditional bonuses are typically the result of magic
or abilities applying helpful, often temporary conditions
to you. Conditional bonuses range from +1 to +4. Some
common conditions appear in the list of basic conditions
on page 320. Conditional bonuses are also granted by
some magic items, depending on the effect—for example,
if an item granted you the benefits of heroism, you’d get
conditional bonuses rather than item bonuses.

And

Quote:

Conditional penalties are caused by negative conditions.

Being sick 2, for example, imposes a –2 conditional
penalty to all your checks and DCs. Conditional penalties
range from –1 to –4. Some standardized conditions
appear in the list of basic conditions on page 320.

Doesn't that makes stuff that grant greater conditional bonuses (Barbarian Rage comes easily in mind), like, terrible?

[Twilight_Arcanum]

Mark Seifter wrote:

That is a lot of enfeeble! At least the paladins hit the cap on the actual conditional penalty after the -4, but still.

Technically, they are not minions since they don't have the minion trait, so they could all be attacking, but then again, the little ones canhave some trouble hitting level 7 characters, even with TAC.

Ah i had missed that it caps at 4 that is a rule that might be good to repeat multiple places.

Really all that means is the party should have had to deal with even more shadows as i could have spawned another 3 if I spread the condition around more liberally.

[Mark Seifter]

shroudb wrote:

Quote:

Conditional penalties are caused by negative conditions.

Being sick 2, for example, imposes a –2 conditional
penalty to all your checks and DCs. Conditional penalties
range from –1 to –4. Some standardized conditions
appear in the list of basic conditions on page 320.

Doesn't that makes stuff that grant greater conditional bonuses (Barbarian Rage comes easily in mind), like, terrible?

Yeah, you're right, that limit should be on checks, so I suppose the bigger enfeeble does decrease damage more than 4.

[Colette Brunel]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Yeah, you're right, that limit should be on checks, so I suppose the bigger enfeeble does decrease damage more than 4.

This is really something that needs to be a concretely-defined rule, because the current wording is unclear, and it is found in an unintuitive location in the book. It is especially easy to miss for someone referencing the rules for conditions.

[Byron Zibeck]

Mark Seifter wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Quote:

Conditional penalties are caused by negative conditions.

Being sick 2, for example, imposes a –2 conditional
penalty to all your checks and DCs. Conditional penalties
range from –1 to –4. Some standardized conditions
appear in the list of basic conditions on page 320.

Doesn't that makes stuff that grant greater conditional bonuses (Barbarian Rage comes easily in mind), like, terrible?

Yeah, you're right, that limit should be on checks, so I suppose the bigger enfeeble does decrease damage more than 4.

I am so confused right now. Can conditional bonus/penalties exceed 4 or not?

[Mark Seifter]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Yeah, you're right, that limit should be on checks, so I suppose the bigger enfeeble does decrease damage more than 4.

This is really something that needs to be a concretely-defined rule, because the current wording is unclear, and it is found in an unintuitive location in the book. It is especially easy to miss for someone referencing the rules for conditions.

Agreed! It's on my list.

[Byron Zibeck]

So after reading this thread over a few times, I think I am understanding this correctly. The penalty applies to CHECKS (i.e., attack rolls), but it applies the full amount to DAMAGE rolls.
So a paladin with Enfeebled 6 would take only a -4 penalty to attack rolls, but would still take the full -6 penalty on damage rolls, correct?

[Mark Seifter]

Byron Zibeck wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Quote:

Conditional penalties are caused by negative conditions.

Being sick 2, for example, imposes a –2 conditional
penalty to all your checks and DCs. Conditional penalties
range from –1 to –4. Some standardized conditions
appear in the list of basic conditions on page 320.

Doesn't that makes stuff that grant greater conditional bonuses (Barbarian Rage comes easily in mind), like, terrible?

Yeah, you're right, that limit should be on checks, so I suppose the bigger enfeeble does decrease damage more than 4.

I am so confused right now. Can conditional bonus/penalties exceed 4 or not?

The rule should limit the bonuses and penalties on checks (and thus DCs), but the limit needs to not apply to damage rolls (otherwise just the simple benefit from a charge or forceful weapon would exceed the cap eventually, not to mention giant totem barbarians breaking it as soon as level 3).

EDIT: Ninjaed by you with correct interpretations!

[Byron Zibeck]

Mark Seifter wrote:

The rule should limit the bonuses and penalties on checks (and thus DCs), but the limit needs to not apply to damage rolls (otherwise just the simple benefit from a charge or forceful weapon would exceed the cap eventually, not to mention giant totem barbarians breaking it as soon as level 3).

Thanks for the clarification, Mark. It took me a few reads, but I eventually figured out what you meant.

[DM Livgin]

Completely missed this. I stopped using shadow steal after they successfully stole the shadows.

[Impuls]

I guess you can't steal shadow from the target if the target has no shadow.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

The shadows were not terribly well received when it came to my players, but part of the problem was that the condition was very hard to remove.

[BeardedTree]

Can Shadows heal each other with their negative energy touch?