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A lot of feats which are or should be shared between classes, like Whirlwind Attack, Double Strike, or any given metamagic feat, should be separated out of the class descriptions into two broader pools. These pools, Combat Feats and Metamagic Feats, could be dipped with class feats by any class.
All or most Combat feats can gain traits as seen in the Fighter versions of those feats, namely Open and Press. Rather than being restrictions (can only be used as a first attack, can not be used as a first attack) as currently worded, these keywords can be things the Fighter interacts with to gain a benefit. So maybe a Fighter who uses an Open move as their first attack can make a free Step before or after the attack. A Fighter who uses a Press move as a second or subsequent attack doesn't increase their Multiple Attack Penalty on a miss. These benefits are exclusive to the Fighter, and are on top of the main benefits of the maneuver.
The Fighter's class feats can be bolstered with more Stances, which definitely should be exclusive to them and the monk. They can get gear boosts which make them better at using different types of weapons and armor; I'm fine with something like Far Shot being Fighter specific because doubling range increment or halving range penalty is not a kind of special action in itself. They can get stuff playing off AoO like taking a free step as part of an AoO, effectively increasing AoO reach. They can get various abilities which trigger on critical hits, making Fighters who go that route the crit specialization class, which seems like a cool thing to be a Fighter bailiwick. They can get abilities drawn from PF1 Fighter archetypes. All of these seem like cool things which can flesh out a Fighter identity even with a lot of combat feats moved into a shared pool, and which I would like seeing being Fighter specific.
And of course, they would get bonus Combat feats like the Rogue gets bonus Skill feats.
Since all classes should get a "path" at 1st level the same way the Druid picks an order or the Bard picks a muse, the Fighter can also get something like the Starfinder Soldier specializations. Maybe this is similar to the Druid, where it gives you a bonus feat of a given "family" (like critical specialization feats), and Fighters with that particular path get a numerical bonus or benefit from feats of that path, but any fighter can still dip into any path.
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Too 5e for me tbh. I rather have a wide variety of options I sparse through rather than a narrow path to branch out from.
I do like the feats being separated, but with class feats being the only way to get them I noticed the fighters feel like they're only half as good, where the rogue is still getting skill feats every level.
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Too 5e for me tbh. I rather have a wide variety of options I sparse through rather than a narrow path to branch out from.
I do like the feats being separated, but with class feats being the only way to get them I noticed the fighters feel like they're only half as good, where the rogue is still getting skill feats every level.
The fighter would get bonus combat feats in this implementation. So they still get a bunch of combat feats, as well as class feats which can be used either for cool fighter stuff like stances / AoO stuff / etc or to dip more combat feats.
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Following on what I mentioned about turning Open and Press into benefits for the Fighter rather than restrictions, that opens more design space for Fighter feats as well. Namely, feats giving more powerful options or benefits when using an Open or Press. :) So someone who built that route would use the bonus combat feats to pick of maneuvers, pick up some cool extra open and press techniques, and become a combo master.
I loved their newly discovered niche in PF1, but understanding it was complicated and required a lot of books. So much so that it took me over 100 pages of free content in a guide to show people how the class really worked.
Having the niche of being the absolute best with equipment, including variable crafting was awesome. I'd prefer seeing the advanced weapon/ armor options as the class feats, and the combat feats get absorbed into and expanded upon within the weapon proficiency system.
Having the niche of being the absolute best with equipment, including variable crafting was awesome. I'd prefer seeing the advanced weapon/ armor options as the class feats, and the combat feats get absorbed into and expanded upon within the weapon proficiency system.
Those aren't even mutually exclusive! :) I also want to see the proficiency system doubled down on, and for classes to pick weapon groups (with the Fighter getting the most) rather than just "all martial weapons" or "simple plus these specific weapons."
They can flavor a lot of the offensive combat feats by what weapon types can use them. For example, Cleave being usable with two-handed weapons. If they make it easier for non Fighters to hit Expert and above earlier than currently implemented, they can also put stuff behind Expert or Master proficiency in a weapon group. If Barbarians change so they could actually get Master in a weapon group, then Whirlwind Attack as a general combat feat could require Master in the non-light weapon being used.
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All or most Combat feats can gain traits as seen in the Fighter versions of those feats, namely Open and Press. Rather than being restrictions (can only be used as a first attack, can not be used as a first attack) as currently worded, these keywords can be things the Fighter interacts with to gain a benefit. So maybe a Fighter who uses an Open move as their first attack can make a free Step before or after the attack. A Fighter who uses a Press move as a second or subsequent attack doesn't increase their Multiple Attack Penalty on a miss. These benefits are exclusive to the Fighter, and are on top of the main benefits of the maneuver.
The Fighter's class feats can be bolstered with more Stances, which definitely should be exclusive to them and the monk. They can get gear boosts which make them better at using different types of weapons and armor; I'm fine with something like Far Shot being Fighter specific because doubling range increment or halving range penalty is not a kind of special action in itself. They can get stuff playing off AoO like taking a free step as part of an AoO, effectively increasing AoO reach. They can get various abilities which trigger on critical hits, making Fighters who go that route the crit specialization class, which seems like a cool thing to be a Fighter bailiwick. They can get abilities drawn from PF1 Fighter archetypes. All of these seem like cool things which can flesh out a Fighter identity even with a lot of combat feats moved into a shared pool, and which I would like seeing being Fighter specific.
I quite like this because it allows the devs to tailor these feats to each class that takes them by granting them benefits based on the traits they have.
You could even make Class feats that grant abilities based on traits to any class this way and still allow for differences across classes.
Just like your fighter idea with the extra step for open, you could grant a bonus to any class.
Class Feat - Ranger Archery
Whenever you perform an action with the Attack and Ranged traits you may move up to half your speed rounded down laterally or backwards from your target. You cannot move more than your speed in a round while using this Feat.
Like always this is just something off the cuff, but it gets the point across.
This allows the non locking of general feats while creating a way to define classes niches in combination with those feats.
To me it also seems rather intuitive and fits with a lot of the framework already present.
There'd need to be adjustments to account for that, but it means less printing of feats, more niche definitions, relatively straightforward and easy for a GM to handle as you know why everyone has available but also how a class can modify these global combat feats (barbarians can gain a free move after felling opponents with cleave or similar, monks can increase fist damage on press feats, etc.)
I hope this is something they consider, seems to strike a nice balance to me.
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I do like the overall idea of bringing back combat feats and removing FighterGate. However I noticed a small problem and was going to post a thread on it when this fell from the sky.
So, to clarify, I want Combat and Metamagic feats open, but the problem is when do characters get them? In PF1 it was a problem for many builds that you pretty much needed 100% combat feats for your feat choices, and the result was certain class options didn't realize until later levels. In the case of my Vigilante, level 8 as a Dex-based unarmed character.
If the ability to get combat feats was in place of your class feats, this higher level gating to be what your class is potentially returns. Example a Rogue taking Double Strike over Trapfinding for the playstyle they want. If the ability to get them comes from General feat choices, then you have the build locking where every opportunity you take a Combat feat and don't diversify out of a beat stick unless you're a Rogue.
So you essentially need a new way to gain these feats, so that Class Feats don't become the inferior option, and people are still incentivized to take some General and Skill feats.
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Having the niche of being the absolute best with equipment, including variable crafting was awesome. I'd prefer seeing the advanced weapon/ armor options as the class feats, and the combat feats get absorbed into and expanded upon within the weapon proficiency system.Those aren't even mutually exclusive! :) I also want to see the proficiency system doubled down on, and for classes to pick weapon groups (with the Fighter getting the most) rather than just "all martial weapons" or "simple plus these specific weapons."
They can flavor a lot of the offensive combat feats by what weapon types can use them. For example, Cleave being usable with two-handed weapons. If they make it easier for non Fighters to hit Expert and above earlier than currently implemented, they can also put stuff behind Expert or Master proficiency in a weapon group. If Barbarians change so they could actually get Master in a weapon group, then Whirlwind Attack as a general combat feat could require Master in the non-light weapon being used.
I theory crafted this exact thing in the equipment section.
Hopefully I can promote it enough to get the buzz it needs to get noticed.
It's mostly based on my playtest data from attempting to do combat with weapons on anything that isn't a fighter.
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This sounds like what they hinted at in the original blog posts previewing the fighter and then really failed to deliver on.
I'm not sure the fighter paths are nessessary but I can get behind absolutely everything else in this post.
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The paths aren't necessary, certainly. Me and my group just really like the Starfinder soldier, and also the structure of PF2 classes like the bard and druid. A similar "path" for the Fighter would simply be a bonus feat and benefits with similar feats, like the druid, rather than a lock-in like the current sorcerer. But it works without too.
Re trapfinding, that should really just be a skill feat.
The class feats should actually be GOOD, all feats should actually be GOOD, so players have an incentive to pick them. Putting something like double slice in combat feats makes iconic builds like two weapon rogue viable, but the actual rogue feats should still also be very viable.
My idea basically comes down to that combat feats would represent mostly combat moves that really any martial should be able to learn. Meanwhile, class feats would lean into that class's schticks, making a rogue a better rogue or what have you. A rogue would get class feats that debilitate foes on sneak attack, or go beyond the scope of a skill feat by using skills more powerfully in combat like feint-all, or give a skill increase AND a bonus skill feat to represent their skill mastery. A Ranger gets stuff that lets them throw down a snare as casually as a barbarian swings an axe, or give their party bonuses against foes before they've even been encountered because the Ranger saw their signs with her tracking mastery and identified them, or do flavorful "favored enemy" abilities like being really good at fighting mobs of enemies (instead of a boring +X vs humanoid). That sort of thing.
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The "paths" are a very 5e thing, where the bulk of your actual decision making is done by 3rd level.
No want.
The "paths" are a very 5e thing, where the bulk of your actual decision making is done by 3rd level.
No want.
Instead of paths, there could just be Class feats that modify selected Combat/Metamagic feats that come from a separate pool.
Honestly opening up general feats to those pools and giving them more often would probably help a lot with that. As is, General's are kind of lacking.
The "paths" are a very 5e thing, where the bulk of your actual decision making is done by 3rd level.
No want.
Instead of paths, there could just be Class feats that modify selected Combat/Metamagic feats that come from a separate pool.
Honestly opening up general feats to those pools and giving them more often would probably help a lot with that. As is, Generals are kind of lacking.
I prefer the notion that the meta magic and combat stuff is all separate from class builds.
Class builds ought be defining the identity of the class. My preference would be a "best of" taken from the classes of PF1 that serve the functions that fall into each respective niche.
I had another thread where we tried to break down where each of the old classes from PF1 could be broken down into which abilities could come from to be absorbed into the classes here.
I prefer the notion that the meta magic and combat stuff is all separate from class builds.
Class builds ought be defining the identity of the class. My preference would be a "best of" taken from the classes of PF1 that serve the functions that fall into each respective niche.
I had another thread where we tried to break down where each of the old classes from PF1 could be broken down into which abilities could come from to be absorbed into the classes here.
That's precisely what I was saying though, that those would be pushed into the General Feat category.
And then subsequently, Class Feats offer feats that modify General Feats (like combat and metamagic) by the traits they have (i.e. tailored increased value based on niche).
I too don't like class locked abilities that should be global, so offering the "tailored" version for class specific changes by Class Feats that modify General Feats based on the traits they possess would be a way to operate on both wave lengths.
Honestly opening up general feats to those pools and giving them more often would probably help a lot with that. As is, Generals are kind of lacking.
General feats are lacking by design. They're not supposed to be a direct power increase, in most cases, but more of a place for broadening/shoring up weak points. Perhaps there needs to be something else at those levels beyond just general feats, but I like general feats where they are, as if you put feats that are at the power level of combat class feats, then stuff like armor proficiency, toughness, great fortitude, ect cease to have a power-level-appropriate home. And the fact that general feats allow you to take skill feats means that you can invest a bit more into skills, if nothing else is calling out to you, without feeling like you're giving up too much. Having these combat/metamagic feats still be class feats, but not gated behind classes (insofar as you have the required prerequisites, which for some classes might require multiclassing), nor taking up valuable page real estate better served by more interesting class specific feats, allows them to retain the power level of a class feat, while leaving general feats to take up feats which may be necessary, but are less impactful than a class feat.
Now, again, there might be something to be said about the fact that you get general feats, skill increases and class features at the same levels, the first two, which are less immediately impactful choices, and the latter which involves no choice in most cases, but keeping general feats where they are, and maybe shifting around some of the design about what levels grant what would be my suggestion, rather than axing the current scope of general feats.
Now, again, there might be something to be said about the fact that you get general feats, skill increases and class features at the same levels, the first two, which are less immediately impactful choices, and the latter which involves no choice in most cases, but keeping general feats where they are, and maybe shifting around some of the design about what levels grant what would be my suggestion, rather than axing the current scope of general feats.
The current scope of General Feats is already quite narrow. Right now, it doesn't grant you much outside gaining higher level proficiency in a save (which is a bit weak).
Considering just about every character I've gone with so far has outright selected a Skill Feat instead of a standard General Feat, I'm not sure there is much merit in retaining their current state.
Low level combat feats (like Double Strike, Cleave, etc.) are not exactly game breaking and are going to be pretty weak by comparison to standard Class Feats that modify those feats (i.e. the Fighter takes a free step on Open traited feats example of OP).
Those are just combat tactics that should be available to everyone, and I think it's entirely reasonable that those feats and Skill Feats and General Feats as is compete in the same space (niche boosting Class feats will establish what is worth picking in the General category).
I think creating an entirely separate channel of Feats for Combat/Metamagic alone is a bit overkill, where as upping General options and increasing rate of gain would offer a comparable solution.