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I have no idea how to handle starting wealth past 1st level, nobody else seems to be having this problem, and it is driving me crazy.
This is a rewrite of an older thread of mine, necessary because these forums do not allow for editing of posts beyond an hour, and because I am now better able to express my woes.
Due to the way this playtest is being run, starting wealth past 1st level is extremely important. Each Pathfinder Society playtest scenario and each Doomsday Dawn adventure is a one-off adventure, which means that a character's starting wealth past 1st level dictates almost all of the equipment they will ever get to use, and which means that consumable items can be overwhelmingly effective. This means that if a character gets to game the starting wealth system and, for example, start with a 5th-level spell scroll as a 5th-level PC in a one-off adventure, then they will have a large chance of distorting the adventure that way.
Thus far, I have run two iterations of The Lost Star, two iterations of In Pale Mountain's Shadow, two iterations of The Rose Street Revenge, two iterations of Raiders of Shrieking Peak, and two iterations of Arclord's Envy. I had no issues with handling starting wealth in The Lost Star and The Rose Street Revenge, because it is fairly easy to parse a flat 15 gp to spend. With my help, players started gaming the system in In Pale Mountain's Shadow to fight past the limitations of the wealth system. Things started getting silly in Raiders of Shrieking Peak and Arclord's Envy, wherein gaming the starting wealth system was getting serious enough that characters were starting off with things like 5th-level spell scrolls.
Now, I am about to run the first out of two playthroughs of Affair at Sombrefell Hall, and I am going absolutely crazy trying to figure out how starting wealth is supposed to work. This is also bothering me because, due to player attrition, I must build a GMPC, yet I do not know what sort of starting wealth rules the adventure expects me to use for my own character. I am practically begging for help here, because this is so important, yet I can find no answers.
Let us have a look at how the rules prescibe handling starting wealth past 1st level.
Quote: TREASURE FOR NEW CHARACTERS
Whether you’re starting a campaign at higher level, a new player joins an existing group, or a current player’s character dies and she needs a new one, your campaign might have a PC who didn’t start at 1st level. In these cases, refer to the Character Wealth table, which lets you know how many common permanent items of various levels the PC should have, plus additional currency. The player can spend her currency as she wishes on consumables or lower-level permanent items, keeping the rest as coinage.
These values are for a PC just starting out the given level. If the PC is joining a party that has made progress toward the next level, you might consider giving the new character an item of their current level as well. If your party still has the treasure of dead or retired PCs, you might need to either decrease the values on the table or reduce some of the treasure rewards for a little while.
You and the player should work together to decide which items the new character has. Allow the player to make suggestions, and if they know what items they want their character to have, respect their choices unless you have reason to believe they are trying to abuse the system. At your discretion, you can also assign them uncommon or rare items that fit their backstory and character, in keeping with how many items of those rarities have already been introduced in your game.
A PC can voluntarily take an item that has a lower level than any or all of the listed items, but doing so doesn’t give any more currency. In the case of items made from special materials, items should be selected based on the table in which they appear, not their item level.
Additionally, there is a warning on page 174 that:
Quote: While characters can use items of any level, Game Masters should keep in mind that allowing characters access to items far above their current level may imbalance the game. While Starfinder, for example, strictly caps characters at purchasing items up to their level + 2, the only guideline Pathfinder 2e receives is a much vaguer "items far above their current level," with no definition for what constitutes "far above." Is 3 far above? 4? 5?
While the core rulebook's rules for starting wealth are squarely GM-focused, the Pathfinder Society playtest scenario rules and the Doomsday Dawn rules are decidedly more player-choice-empowering. The Pathfinder Society playtest scenario rules for 5th-level starting wealth are the same as those in the core rulebook, except that the player is in charge of picking everything out, and there are hard-coded rules for handling rarities. The Doomsday Dawn rules are mostly the same as in the core rulebook, except that there is no stipulation that the selected items must be permanent items, and the books ar silent on common and uncommon options, thus leaving them to the GM to decide, as James Jacobs clarifies here and here.
While the above setup may seem robust on first glance, it breaks down when someone sits down with an intent to push the system to its limits.
• Problem #1: A character starting from 2nd through 5th level is entitled to one or two permanent 1st-level items. However, there are no permanent 1st-level items except for the dull gray aeon stone (which is uncommon, thus requiring GM approval), so a character must usually settle for a 0th-level item (i.e. mundane equipment) instead. This should almost always be a 20 gp composite longbow, so that the character can sell it for 10 gp and spend that 10 gp elsewhere.
• Problem #2: Since starting wealth is based on item levels and not permanent items, it feels bad to select a permanent item that is significantly lower-value than the maximum-value items of the level. It does not feel too good to select a 200 gp choker of eloquence or a traveler's any-tool over, say, 250 gp eyes of the eagle (+2 Perception when Perception is the default initiative skill), when all of them are 6th-level items.
• Problem #3: Page 348 says, "In the case of items made from special materials, items should be selected based on the table in which they appear, not their item level." This applies only to items made of (vastly overpriced) special materials. But while there are specific examples in page 356, the tables in pages 354 to 355 give no item levels. So how does this work?
• Problem #4: Page 370 says, "The level of an item with runes etched on it is equal to the highest level among the base item and all runes etched on it; therefore, a +1 mace (4th level) with a disrupting rune (5th level) would be a 5th-level item." How am I supposed to handle this as a GM? Is this intentional, or is it something to be ruled out?
Example of Problem #4 in Action: The fourth and final Pathfinder Society playtest scenario, The Frozen Oath, is a 10th-level adventure. What kind of weapon can a character in this adventure start with? Let us find out. A master-quality weapon is a 7th-level item, and can accommodate two property runes. A +1 weapon potency rune is a 4th-level item, a +2 weapon potency rune is an 8th-level item, and frost and shock runes are 9th-level items. That means that a master-quality weapon with a +1 weapon potency rune, a +2 weapon potency rune, and frost and shock runes is a 9th-level item. That is a value of 360 gp master-quality weapon + 65 gp first potency rune + 400 gp second potency rune + 700 gp frost + 700 gp shock = 2,225 gp! That is crazy. Is a PC starting at 10th-level really entitled to start with such a 9th-level item?
• Problem #5: It is a little too easy to game the system by selling at 50% price the items you do not care for, in order to purchase higher-level items you do want and/or packs of consumable items. This is something I have seen done across multiple characters, and it is really quite irksome. How am I supposed to handle selling items pre-game as a GM, especially for playtest purposes? Is this intentional, or is it something to be ruled out?
Example of Problem #5 in Action, Combined with Problem #4: A character entering Doomsday Dawn's third adventure, Affair at Sombrefell Hall, "begins with one 6th-level item, two 5th-level items, one 4th-level item, two 3rd-level items, and 125 gp to spend on any additional items." They take a +1 wounding weapon (worth 100 + 250 = 350 gp) as a 6th-level item, two sets of +1 glamered light or medium armor (each worth 60 + 140 = 200 gp) as 5th-level items, a +1 ghost touch weapon (worth 100 + 100 = 200 gp) as a 4th-level item, and any two 60 gp items as a 3rd-level item. They then sell the items for a total of (350 + 200 + 200 + 200 + 60 + 60) ÷ 2 = 535 gp, and add in their 125 gp. With a grand total of 660 gp on hand, they buy +2 magic armor for 360 gp, a 6th-level spell scrolls for 175 gp, a 5th-level spell scroll for 90 gp, a 3rd-level spell scroll for 20 gp, a 2nd-level spell scroll for 8 gp. They have 7 gp left on hand. Is this supposed to happen? That is not a rhetorical question, I am seriously, unironically wondering if this is intentional. I feel like I am going crazy here.
• Problem #6: Are wands considered permanent items? This only really matters for the Pathfinder Society playtest scenarios, but it is worth asking. They are too expensive to be considered consumable items, yet they are significantly lower-priced than permanent items. Thus, can a character select a wand as a "permanent" item?
So please, if anyone is listening, if anyone is reading this, please lend me advice, because the starting wealth system is so janky that it is tormenting me and making it difficult for me to adjudicate the game. I cannot help but think that this could have been avoided simply by instating a flat pool of starting wealth, along with item level limits to prevent things like loading up on high-level consumables for a one-off.
The tables on pages 349-353 ought to have helped here, but they do indeed not include any permanent 1st level item except a dull grey aeon stone, and do not as far as I can see include any darkwood items. A mithral chainshirt, yes, but no darkwood.
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Well as you said, by raw, nothing prevents the player to abuse the system and make more money.
So :
1/ Let the players break the game
2/ Report how unfun it was on the survey
3/ ????
4/ Make a sacrifice to Satan so that the dev would actually notice it and change the rules.
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Shaheer-El-Khatib wrote: Well as you said, by raw, nothing prevents the player to abuse the system and make more money.
So :
1/ Let the players break the game
2/ Report how unfun it was on the survey
3/ ????
4/ Make a sacrifice to Satan so that the dev would actually notice it and change the rules.
Its Asmodeus you uncultured swine!
As far as these two go,
Colette Brunel wrote: This means that if a character gets to game the starting wealth system and, for example, start with a 5th-level spell scroll as a 5th-level PC in a one-off adventure, then they will have a large chance of distorting the adventure that way. Colette Brunel wrote: Problem #6: Are wands considered permanent items? This only really matters for the Pathfinder Society playtest scenarios, but it is worth asking. They are too expensive to be considered consumable items, yet they are significantly lower-priced than permanent items. Thus, can a character select a wand as a "permanent" item? For the first table 11-5 on pg. 379 a 5th level spell is a level 9 item. Effectively for scrolls the item level is the level a caster would have gained access to that spell level.
Edit: I suppose I should clarify here that 1. The availability of anything is left as GM fiat, starting at a higher level does not change this. 2. Blowing all their character wealth on scrolls of what exactly that imbalanced this scenario?
For the second, wands have a limited number of charges and then burn out, therefore they are not permanent is what I would personally say, however, at the moment they lack the consummable trait so I would suppose them to be considered permanent magic items. That should probably recieve a dev clarification one way or the other.
If something as important as starting wealth in a one-session, one-off adventure is left purely up to GM fiat, then that means that a major balancing factor for these playtest adventures is likewise left purely to GM fiat.
How am I supposed to know whether or not it is intentional to, for example, sell off items as part of character creation? Or avail of free runes on armor and weapons?
Equipment is hugely important when determining a character's abilities, especially what kind of major consumable items they can pull out to (try to) save the day.
I hadn't even noticed that it says Permanent Items. I just assumed you just got that many items from the 1st level treasure list. I agree that this should be clarified by the devs.
Can you pick anything from the appropriate treasures list? Or only permanent items?
Rameth wrote: I hadn't even noticed that it says Permanent Items. I just assumed you just got that many items from the 1st level treasure list. I agree that this should be clarified by the devs.
Can you pick anything from the appropriate treasures list? Or only permanent items?
It does not matter for Doomsday Dawn, but it does matter for the Pathfinder Society playtest scenarios, which preserve the limitation on permanent items only.
Wands don't have the consumable trait so they are permanent items.
citricking wrote: Wands don't have the consumable trait so they are permanent items. Is it defined anywhere that a permanent item is one without the consumable trait?
It's simply the other way around: Anything that has the consumable trait is not a permanent item.
Franz Lunzer wrote: It's simply the other way around: Anything that has the consumable trait is not a permanent item. Says what rule? Wands currently occupy an awkward space between consumable and permanent, especially as far as pricing is concerned, so it is not unthinkable to consider that they might just be in a limbo of neither consumable nor permanent at the moment.
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#1: Page 347, left column, last sentence:
"When assigning level 1 permanent items, your best options are weapons, armor, and gear from chapter 6 worth between 10 and 20 gp."
Which feels a little lackluster, but as the whole Resonance Point debacle is to get rid of cheap magic items, it is not surprising that the rules do not provide those.
But it makes you wonder - why explicitly include "permanent level 1 items" in table 11-1 and 11-2 if you then also explicitly say that none are available through the above quote?
Colette Brunel wrote: Franz Lunzer wrote: It's simply the other way around: Anything that has the consumable trait is not a permanent item. Says what rule? Wands currently occupy an awkward space between consumable and permanent, especially as far as pricing is concerned, so it is not unthinkable to consider that they might just be in a limbo of neither consumable nor permanent at the moment. The "Consumable" trait is defined on page 414 as an item that is usable only once. Nothing is said of items usable twice, or more. And if you look at page 380, it says: "A wand is similar to a consumable item, but unlike consumables it isn't destroyed... [etc]". So a wand is similar to a consumable, but is not a consumable.
"Permanent" is not defined in any of the 53 occurences of the word in the rules, so you'd have to fall back on the dictionary definitions, and limited-times-use items do not seem to fall under those. Looking at page 380 again: "Once the charges are depleted, the wand becomes nonmagical." Does not seem to fall under a reasonable definition of "permanent" unless you don't use it - in which case a scroll is also "permanent"... ;) ;)
So, yes, wands are in a limbo as far as tables 11-1 and 11-2 are concerned.
The wand matter is minor and ultimately does not concern Doomsday Dawn. What really bothers me and drives me nuts is the free runes and the ability to sell items. Are PCs supposed to be able to avail of free runes and the selling of magic items during character creation? I really, really cannot discern any answer to this.
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The rules as intended are clearly that characters start the game with the items they selected from the lists, and not to sell them before actual play.
As for the 'free runes':
Treasure for new characters, p. 348 wrote: You and the player should work together to decide which items the new character has. Allow the player to make suggestions, and if they know what items they want their character to have, respect their choices unless you have reason to believe they are trying to abuse the system.
While the rules are sketchy at best, here's my take on it.
Problem #|: I got nothing. I assume its an oversight.
Problem #2: It only feels bad if the monetary value is relevant, for sake of a one shot it would not be relevant.
Problem #3: As they are not part of the magic item table, they wouldn't be part of the playtest unless you would have the funds to upgrade the material component of the magical item.
Problem #4: This is however an issue. I'm pretty confident in saying it would not be intended and the magical item levels are ment to just utilise the base magical weapons from the table itself.
Problem #5: Again, your making the assumption your allowed and ment to sell these.
The base rules state you can indeed sell items, however typically for paizo published module (at least to my knowledge). Module specifics overwrite any regular rulebook rules if the two would be in conflict or contradicting and as such, you would not have the ability to sell items concidering the following statement in pretty much all the doomsday dawn "starting item" description. Which simply states **Each character begins with**.
< Now to me who admittedly is using english as an effective third language so there is absolutely the possibility that i am wrong however my interpretation is that it means you don't have the option to sell before this chapter starts and you simply get what each chapter tells you that you would be getting.
Who is to say that the free runes are abusing the system? For all we know, it is intentional that characters get to start with free runes.
Dreamtime2k9 wrote: The base rules state you can indeed sell items, however typically for paizo published module (at least to my knowledge). Module specifics overwrite any regular rulebook rules an as such, you would not have the ability to sell items concidering the following statement in pretty much all the doomsday dawn "starting item" description. Which simply states **Each character begins with**. Affair at Sombrefell Hall technically starts with the characters in Rozenport, a bustling town, and they have a day to spend faffing around before setting off for Sombrefell Hall. During that day, they can presumably sell off items.
The same goes for In Pale Mountain's Shadow, Red Flags, When the Stars Go Dark, and all three of the Pathfinder Society playtest scenarios.
Colette Brunel wrote:
Affair at Sombrefell Hall technically starts with the characters in Rozenport, a bustling town, and they have a day to spend faffing around before setting off for Sombrefell Hall. During that day, they can presumably sell off items.
The same goes for In Pale Mountain's Shadow, Red Flags, When the Stars Go Dark, and all three of the Pathfinder Society playtest scenarios.
"Shopping" is a valid tactic. It is even an Exploration tactic, rather than a Downtime tactic, so does not take entire days to do.
Colette Brunel wrote: Who is to say that the free runes are abusing the system? For all we know, it is intentional that characters get to start with free runes. If that were intentional at all then i would question the following; what would be the point of listing the magical weapon in the table the way they currently are which does not include those runes. It would be contradictory and again, likely is not as intended. I am not a developer and unless one happens to provide an answer on this, you could always make the argument of what if which will simply create more confusion then just going with the obvious answer.
Colette Brunel wrote: Affair at Sombrefell Hall technically starts with the characters in Rozenport, a bustling town, and they have a day to spend faffing around before setting off for Sombrefell Hall. During that day, they can presumably sell off items.
The same goes for In Pale Mountain's Shadow, Red Flags, When the Stars Go Dark, and all three of the Pathfinder Society playtest scenarios.
Unless there is a vendor rolled up in the book (which i doubt based on earlier chapters), i doubt that would be the intention.
It might be the case that the merchants here don't have the funds to buy things off the players, they might be pretty stocked up. Even if they could and have the funds; there is no guarantee they'll have what hte players are looking for as per normal merchants who typically have lists of items they have available.
Mats Öhrman wrote: "Shopping" is a valid tactic. It is even an Exploration tactic, rather than a Downtime tactic, so does not take entire days to do. This is true, however if you go with that argument then... i believe there are rules for looking for specific items which means you might not get what you are looking for and thus assuming an automatic success during character creation is still invalid.
Even if you would take that route and have a GM willing to cater to it; your playtesting that instead of the module's goals which i don't think is a part off the chapters? I know it isn't for the first 3 with a certainty, i am actually not certain with the last 4 however as i'm trying not to spoiler myself regarding.
Dreamtime2k9 wrote: Mats Öhrman wrote: "Shopping" is a valid tactic. It is even an Exploration tactic, rather than a Downtime tactic, so does not take entire days to do. This is true, however if you go with that argument then... i believe there are rules for looking for specific items which means you might not get what you are looking for and thus assuming an automatic success during character creation is still invalid.
Are you speaking of Item Rarity? I've seen nothing beside those rules.
Dreamtime2k9 wrote:
Even if you would take that route and have a GM willing to cater to it; your playtesting that instead of the module's goals which i don't think is a part off the chapters? I know it isn't for the first 3 with a certainty, i am actually not certain with the last 4 however as i'm trying not to spoiler myself regarding.
Would not know anything of the module's internals - I'm a player and not a GM. Trying to dodge spoliers the best I can. :)
But I assume that as a player you'd want to play the scenarios as you normally would play, especially the society ones.
Mats Öhrman wrote: Dreamtime2k9 wrote: Mats Öhrman wrote: "Shopping" is a valid tactic. It is even an Exploration tactic, rather than a Downtime tactic, so does not take entire days to do. This is true, however if you go with that argument then... i believe there are rules for looking for specific items which means you might not get what you are looking for and thus assuming an automatic success during character creation is still invalid.
Are you speaking of Item Rarity? I've seen nothing beside those rules.
... Name and Level, p. 344 wrote: ...
For instance, a 3rd-level character might find items of level 4 and higher through adventuring, and if she’s in a large enough settlement, she might also find such items to purchase if the GM determines they’re for sale.
...
Not much in the way of rules, other than GM's decision.
I looked over the item tables and noted some trends before we got past the first adventure, so I laid down some guidelines for what my PCs could pick.
* I noted that an expert weapon is 2nd level, but a few example expert weapons made of special materials were 3rd level on the table. So I said that a "basic" special material like silver or cold iron would be the player's choice of either increasing the item slot level by 1, or paying for the material out of starting SP.
* The tables just list basic +X weapons and armor. So I ruled that property runes were just separate items, which could be paid for by their own starting item slots if the players didn't have the SP.
* Wands are just items of their level.
I don't know what to say though re comparing a fun item like an anytool to a "mandatory" item like eyes of the eagle. I thought one of the things PF2 was supposed to address was having to take these mandatory items to be effective, but nope, they're still around. :(
Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
While the table only lists the basic, the rules for applying property runes make them count as the highest of either, so for starting equipment they are free game for a new character which receives an item of level X those property runes inside the weapon of item level X are pretty much fair game.
Or would you rule that a person who wants that +1 disrupting mace has to spend a level 4 item for the +1 mace and a level 5 item for the disrupting rune while the rune chapter pretty specifically states that the +1 disrupting mace is a level 5 item.
Damanta wrote: While the table only lists the basic, the rules for applying property runes make them count as the highest of either, so for starting equipment they are free game for a new character which receives an item of level X those property runes inside the weapon of item level X are pretty much fair game.
Or would you rule that a person who wants that +1 disrupting mace has to spend a level 4 item for the +1 mace and a level 5 item for the disrupting rune while the rune chapter pretty specifically states that the +1 disrupting mace is a level 5 item.
That net item level of 5 is pretty clearly for the purpose of interacting with rules like craft skill, counteract checks, etc. The +1 disrupting mace is way more expensive than a normal level 5 item and it seems intended that runes are items unto themselves for character creation.
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So if the net level 5 is for the craft skill, crafting a legendary +4 keen quick greater-corrosive club can be done in 4 days by the appropriate character, the same as a much simpler version?
If not for starting items, it works even worse using it for crafting. Property runes should be treated as a seperate item, affixed to the weapon, and there should not be a net level at all. A +1 Disrupting Mace should be a level 4 item with a level 5 item stuck to it, imo.
I would make a terrible copy editor. When I read a line, I tend to see words what make sense rather than the word that are already there. I missed the flaws in Table 11–2: Character Wealth, on page 348. I read "Permanent Items" as "Items" and "Currency" as "Other funds to spend."
My mental filter as to what words make sense is that a character created at higher level represents a character who as been adventuring for a while and just came out of some encounters, exploration, and downtime. Of course, he or she had time for shopping. The reason a 4th-level character would have one 3rd-level item, two 2nd-level items, and one 1st-level item is that he or she had found them at earlier levels and liked them enough to not sell them off. Perhaps the 1st-level item is a consumable that the character has not consumed yet. Or it could be a 0-level item acquired at a higher level, such as half-plate armor.
I suspect that the headings on Table 11-2 copied the headings from Table 11-1, Party Treasure by Level. The writer did not realize that words describing treasure given out over a level have a different emphasis when describing tools and supplies carried by a character. Don't sweat the details.
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For #4, every item they are buying off the chart to make that more powerful item counts as one of their items. So if they buy a +3 weapon and then two property runes, that's three of their items. #5, at least in the example given, can't happen without doing #4 the other way. Ass Fuzzypaws says, the reason for the rule to determine the net item level is for things like dispelling.
Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
I don't like that but fine it is what it is.
I want a +4 legendary weapon. 5 itemslots is a bit much.
Slot 1 Legendary weapon
Slot 2 +1 rune
Slot 3 +2 rune
Slot 4 +3 rune
Slot 5 +4 rune
Or does it work differently for quality?
What about material, if I wanted it to adamantine as well would that be another itemslot or does that also work differently?
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Damanta wrote: I don't like that but fine it is what it is.
I want a +4 legendary weapon. 5 itemslots is a bit much.
Slot 1 Legendary weapon
Slot 2 +1 rune
Slot 3 +2 rune
Slot 4 +3 rune
Slot 5 +4 rune
Or does it work differently for quality?
What about material, if I wanted it to adamantine as well would that be another itemslot or does that also work differently?
You can buy a +X weapon directly on the chart, so it uses one pick (similarly a flametongue would be one pick, even though it has potency and is flaming). If you wanted it to be a special material (or higher than standard quality, like with your example), that would take an additional pick, considering the special material in the chart with similar-looking prices, as the rules for choosing special material items mention.
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Pretty sure a +4 Weapon is one item, because it has its own entry in the treasure section listing it as one item. Mark's example also suggests the same thing.
A +X Weapon is assumed to be the minimum quality needed, so a +4 weapon is automatically a master weapon. If you want a +4 Legendary Weapon, you need to spend 2 level 16 item choices, 1 for the Weapon, and another for the quality increase (or spend 6140 gp for the quality increase).
EDIT: Ninja'd by the man himself.
Mark Seifter wrote: For #4, every item they are buying off the chart to make that more powerful item counts as one of their items. So if they buy a +3 weapon and then two property runes, that's three of their items. #5, at least in the example given, can't happen without doing #4 the other way. Ass Fuzzypaws says, the reason for the rule to determine the net item level is for things like dispelling. Thank you for your response. So it looks like, no, characters are not, in fact, supposed to be able to start with free runes.
That still leaves problem #5, however. Let us see what it looks like now.
A character entering Doomsday Dawn's third adventure, Affair at Sombrefell Hall, "begins with one 6th-level item, two 5th-level items, one 4th-level item, two 3rd-level items, and 125 gp to spend on any additional items." They take a 250 gp 6th-level item, two 160 gp 5th-level items, a 100 gp 4th-level item, and any two 60 gp items as a 3rd-level item. They then sell the items for a total of (250 + 160 + 160 + 100 + 60 + 60) ÷ 2 = 395 gp, and add in their 125 gp. With a grand total of 520 gp on hand, they buy +2 magic armor for 360 gp, a a 5th-level spell scroll for 90 gp, a 4th-level spell scroll for 45 gp, and a 3rd-level spell scroll for 20 gp. They have 5 gp left on hand. That still seems like a terribly good deal to me.
Or perhaps the party already opted to give this character the free +2 magic armor. They can buy a 7th-level spell scroll for 400 gp, a 5th-level spell scroll for 90 gp, and a 3rd-level spell scroll for 20 gp. They have 10 gp left on hand. That 7th-level spell scroll is ridiculous at character level 7th, especially in a one-off adventure.
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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
This basically means you will not start with property runes on your weapon or armor, or different material for your weapon or armor at higher levels.
If I take the level 17 as example you need to fill:
Max potency Melee Weapon item level 16 (+4 because I need to keep up with the curve)
Max potency Ranged Weapon item level 16 oh cannot do that because I only get 1 item level 16. Need to drop it by one potency, which makes it item level 12. Right there goes one of the itemlevel 13 slots.
Max potency Armor item level 15 (because if I do not do this I'm a liability as the tank)
Potency item item level 14 (Strength in my melee case, because I need to keep up with the expected curve)
Shield: item level 12 (which also costs me my a level 13 slot)
That's 5 of 6 items spend already, and now I still need something to improve my legendary skills to keep up with the expected curves. Since I'm legendary crafting and intimidate my potency item doesn't do the trick (strength gives athleticicm). The Demon Mask which helps my intimidate is a level 14 item, guess that goes into the level 15 slot.
This means my slots are filled:
level 16: an actual level 16 item per the treasure guide (weapon)
level 15: an actual level 15 item per the treasure guide (armor)
level 15: a level 14 item per the treasure guide (skill item)
level 14: an actual level 14 item per the treasure guide (potency item)
level 13: a level 12 shield
level 13: a level 12 weapon
Because all the math is so tightly controlled I guess that would make sense. I had hoped being able to have magic items for other purposes than to keep up with the expected math curves.
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Colette Brunel wrote: Mark Seifter wrote: For #4, every item they are buying off the chart to make that more powerful item counts as one of their items. So if they buy a +3 weapon and then two property runes, that's three of their items. #5, at least in the example given, can't happen without doing #4 the other way. Ass Fuzzypaws says, the reason for the rule to determine the net item level is for things like dispelling. Thank you for your response. So it looks like, no, characters are not, in fact, supposed to be able to start with free runes.
That still leaves problem #5, however. Let us see what it looks like now.
A character entering Doomsday Dawn's third adventure, Affair at Sombrefell Hall, "begins with one 6th-level item, two 5th-level items, one 4th-level item, two 3rd-level items, and 125 gp to spend on any additional items." They take a 250 gp 6th-level item, two 160 gp 5th-level items, a 100 gp 4th-level item, and any two 60 gp items as a 3rd-level item. They then sell the items for a total of (250 + 160 + 160 + 100 + 60 + 60) ÷ 2 = 395 gp, and add in their 125 gp. With a grand total of 520 gp on hand, they buy +2 magic armor for 360 gp, a a 5th-level spell scroll for 90 gp, a 4th-level spell scroll for 45 gp, and a 3rd-level spell scroll for 20 gp. They have 5 gp left on hand. That still seems like a terribly good deal to me.
Or perhaps the party already opted to give this character the free +2 magic armor. They can buy a 7th-level spell scroll for 400 gp, a 5th-level spell scroll for 90 gp, and a 3rd-level spell scroll for 20 gp. They have 10 gp left on hand. That 7th-level spell scroll is ridiculous at character level 7th, especially in a one-off adventure. One-shot adventures are definitely their own animal, but in an ongoing campaign, a character who did something like that would be at a big wealth disadvantage once they used up that scroll, so I'm not sure it's a good play in that case. Selling everything for a +2 armor is interesting, but the playtest allows you to pool the loose cash anyway which might be a more efficient way to grab a +2 armor. Situations like these are why we recommend that players and GMs work together on the starting allotment. For the playtest, let's try to keep the data more consistent by not doing sellback of the starting items and just using the starting coinage for purchasing more items, since that's what groups are likely to usually do. After that, do whichever your group overall prefers.
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Colette Brunel wrote: Mark Seifter wrote: For #4, every item they are buying off the chart to make that more powerful item counts as one of their items. So if they buy a +3 weapon and then two property runes, that's three of their items. #5, at least in the example given, can't happen without doing #4 the other way. Ass Fuzzypaws says, the reason for the rule to determine the net item level is for things like dispelling. Thank you for your response. So it looks like, no, characters are not, in fact, supposed to be able to start with free runes.
That still leaves problem #5, however. Let us see what it looks like now.
A character entering Doomsday Dawn's third adventure, Affair at Sombrefell Hall, "begins with one 6th-level item, two 5th-level items, one 4th-level item, two 3rd-level items, and 125 gp to spend on any additional items." They take a 250 gp 6th-level item, two 160 gp 5th-level items, a 100 gp 4th-level item, and any two 60 gp items as a 3rd-level item. They then sell the items for a total of (250 + 160 + 160 + 100 + 60 + 60) ÷ 2 = 395 gp, and add in their 125 gp. With a grand total of 520 gp on hand, they buy +2 magic armor for 360 gp, a a 5th-level spell scroll for 90 gp, a 4th-level spell scroll for 45 gp, and a 3rd-level spell scroll for 20 gp. They have 5 gp left on hand. That still seems like a terribly good deal to me.
Or perhaps the party already opted to give this character the free +2 magic armor. They can buy a 7th-level spell scroll for 400 gp, a 5th-level spell scroll for 90 gp, and a 3rd-level spell scroll for 20 gp. They have 10 gp left on hand. That 7th-level spell scroll is ridiculous at character level 7th, especially in a one-off adventure. Problem #5 is simply a problem of access, and that is controlled by the GM. Page 19 of the Doomsday Dawn PDF explicitly states that the default is that PCs have access to common items of their level or lower. Anything other than that is decided by the GM.
If you want them to have access to 7th-level spell scrolls, then they will be able to purchase them. Otherwise, just say no. The power lies with you here, and the rules support that.
Mark Seifter wrote: For the playtest, let's try to keep the data more consistent by not doing sellback of the starting items and just using the starting coinage for purchasing more items, since that's what groups are likely to usually do. Thank you. So for playtesting purposes, it is best to disallow players from selling starting items.
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