|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
He knew which plant would cure the corruption, which serves as an example of his knowledge of nature more than healing. Could you sight specific examples of him patching up the other members of the fellowship after fights? Which is the role of the healer.
So, the problem with this question is that it assumes that all of fantasy roleplaying is based specifically on Lord of the Rings. In reference to D&D, that game pulled from a LOT of different sources, including Lord of the Rings, but also the works of Jack Vance and simple medieval history, including the heavy involvement of the Catholic church, and that's not even getting into things like Beowulf. Since D&D pulled from this medieval era, it made sense to have the church, and priests (aka, Clerics) play a prominent part in the original setting. We also get Vancian casting injected into it, as well as the core races coming from Lord of the Rings, creating a sort of hodge-podge of a number of different settings and styles.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean that the "ideal adventuring party" when it comes to D&D, and to an extent all fantasy RPGs based on D&D's legacy (including Pathfinder), draws from a lot of different sources at simply a base level, before we even get into modern gaming archetypes and stereotypes, and as the genre grows, so too do the types of characters people expect to be able to play.
All that to say, asking "Who was the Healer in Lord of the Rings?" is about as relevant as asking "Who was the Halfling in Le Morte d'Arthur?" or "Who was the Dunedain in Dying Earth?" It's a loaded question that fails to address the hobby, or its roots, on the whole. The "support/healer" archetype, whatever the source, is one that has always existed in fantasy ROLEPLAYING, even if it wasn't in all of its source material, so it makes sense that players should be able to fill that role if that is the kind of character they want to play, but they should also be able to fill that role in the WAY that they see fit. Want to play a naturalist ranger who heals using herbal remedies and tinctures that take a while to find/apply? You should be able to do that. Want to be able to play the divine healer that is sent by the church to ensure the success of this venture? You should be able to do that, too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you think no one thinks that wands of CLW are too cheap or too easy you've just not been listening.
It's the "terrible, hacky, unintended, uninteresting, and general terrible fit" I don't get: note none of that is 'it's too cheap' or 'it's too easy'. ;)
No, what I find odd is people say 'it's too cheap' but when they suggest a solution, it's even CHEAPER [ei, free] and EASIER [after each fight]. I'm not sure how a after fight nap that heals you some alter the paradigm any as anything not healed in the nap would be healed by the next efficient way [the cheapest wand].
Lets say the solution is to normalize the price of healing: healing 1 average hp costs x gp no matter the wand level or spell used. You'd run into the same issue: not because of cheapest gp/hp but cheapest action cost/hp healed. People would save the big healing items for in combat healing and use lesser ones when actions didn't matter [downtime].
So, to me, 'it's too cheap' really isn't that valid because the same thing would happen if they did cost the same per hp.
He knew which plant would cure the corruption, which serves as an example of his knowledge of nature more than healing. Could you sight specific examples of him patching up the other members of the fellowship after fights? Which is the role of the healer.
"The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known."
Sam’s wound was not deep, but it looked ugly, and Aragorn’s face was grave as he examined it. After a moment he looked up with relief.
‘Good luck, Sam!’ he said. ‘Many have received worse than this in payment for the slaying of their first orc. The cut is not poisoned, as the wounds of orc-blades too often are. It should heal well when I have tended it. Bathe it when Gimli has heated water.’
He opened his pouch and drew out some withered leaves. ‘They are dry, and some of their virtue has gone,’ he said, ‘but here I have still some of the leaves of athelas that I gathered near Weathertop. Crush one in the water, and wash the wound clean, and I will bind it. Now it is your turn, Frodo!’
‘I am all right,’ said Frodo, reluctant to have his garments touched. ‘All I needed was some food and a little rest.’
‘No!’ said Aragorn. ‘We must have a look and see what the hammer and the anvil have done to you. I still marvel that you are alive at all.’ Gently he stripped off Frodo’s old jacket and worn tunic, and gave a gasp of wonder. Then he laughed. The silver corslet shimmered before his eyes like the light upon a rippling sea. Carefully he took it off and held it up, and the gems on it glittered like stars, and the sound of the shaken rings was like the tinkle of rain in a pool.
‘Look, my friends!’ he called. ‘Here’s a pretty hobbit-skin to wrap an elven-princeling in! If it were known that hobbits had such hides, all the hunters of Middle-earth would be riding to the Shire.’
‘And all the arrows of all the hunters in the world would be in vain,’ said Gimli, gazing at the mail in wonder. ‘It is a mithril-coat. Mithril! I have never seen or heard tell of one so fair. Is this the coat that Gandalf spoke of? Then he undervalued it. But it was well given!’
‘I have often wondered what you and Bilbo were doing, so close in his little room,’ said Merry. ‘Bless the old hobbit! I love him more than ever. I hope we get a chance of telling him about it!’
There was a dark and blackened bruise on Frodo’s right side and breast. Under the mail there was a shirt of soft leather, but at one point the rings had been driven through it into the flesh. Frodo’s left side also was scored and bruised where he had been hurled against the wall. While the others set the food ready, Aragorn bathed the hurts with water in which athelas was steeped. The pungent fragrance filled the dell, and all those who stooped over the steaming water felt refreshed and strengthened. Soon Frodo felt the pain leave him, and his breath grew easy: though he was stiff and sore to the touch for many days. Aragorn bound some soft pads of cloth at his side."
"Then Aragorn stooped and looked in her face, and it was indeed white as a lily, cold as frost, and hard as graven stone. But he bent and kissed her on the brow, and called her softly, saying:
'Éowyn Éomund's daughter, awake! For your enemy has passed away!'
She did not stir, but now she began again to breathe deeply, so that her breast rose and fell beneath the white linen of the sheet. Once more Aragorn bruised two leaves of athelas and cast them into steaming water; and he laved her brow with it, and her right arm lying cold and nerveless on the coverlet.
Then, whether Aragorn had indeed some forgotten power of Westernesse, or whether it was but his words of the Lady Éowyn that wrought on them, as the sweet influence of the herb stole about the chamber it seemed to those who stood by that a keen wind blew through the window, and it bore no scent, but was an air wholly fresh and clean and young, as if it had not before been breathed by any living thing and came new-made from snowy mountains high beneath a dome of stars, or from shores of silver far away washed by seas of foam."
'Do not be afraid,' said Aragorn. 'I came in time, and I have called him back. He is weary now, and grieved, and he has taken a hurt like the Lady Éowyn, daring to smite that deadly thing. But these evils can be amended, so strong and gay a spirit is in him. His grief he will not forget; but it will not darken his heart, it will teach him wisdom.'
Then Aragorn laid his hand on Merry's head, and passing his hand gently through the brown curls, he touched the eyelids, and called him by name. And when the fragrance of athelas stole through the room, like the scent of orchards, and of heather in the sunshine full of bees, suddenly Merry awoke, and he said: 'I am hungry. What is the time?'
Aragorn knelt beside Faramir, and held a hand upon his brow. And those that watched felt that some great struggle was going on. For Aragorn’s face grew grey with weariness; and ever and anon he called the name of Faramir, but each time more faintly to their hearing, as if Aragorn himself was removed from them, and walked afar in some dark vale, calling for one that was lost ... taking two leaves, he laid them on his hands and breathed on them, and then he crushed them, and straightway a living freshness filled the room, as if the air itself awoke and tingled, sparkling with joy. And then he cast the leaves into the bowls of steaming water that were brought to him, and at once all hearts were lightened. For the fragrance that came to each was like a memory of dewy mornings of unshadowed sun in some land of which the fair world in spring is itself but a fleeting memory. But Aragorn stood up as one refreshed, and his eyes smiled as he held a bowl before Faramir’s dreaming face ... suddenly Faramir stirred, and he opened his eyes, and he looked on Aragorn who bent over him; and a light of knowledge and love was kindled in his eyes, and he spoke softly. ‘My lord, you called me. I come."
Like most magic in Tolkien it's subtle, reliant on skill, and uses material components. Gandalf's fireballs used pinecones, Aragorn's healing used the herb athelas. That doesn't make Aragorn a dedicated healer but it's definitely a prominent secondary role for the Ranger in the narrative.
Having five healing clases instead of two spreads the healers across more classes. It doesn't create a ton of new healers. Why? Because people who don't want to play a healer won't, no matter how many classes you dangle in front of them.[snip]
Clerics actually handle this elegantly right now, because if you make a Cleric of a good deity, you have healing, want it or not. But using it doesn't impact your ability to do other stuff, and you can totally specialize away from healing if you want to.
I think you found your way to the correct answer. Clerics have a base class plus a healing package essentially as a free add on. You don't spend other resources to heal.
My point is that Paizo could essentially just add that healing package to Druids, Bards and Alchemists. People who played those classes would be playing healers by default. They could play there class as normal during combat and heal between combats if they wanted to -- effectively replacing the wand of CLW.
Even if you are correct and most people just don't want to play healers, that fact should not stop anyone from playing those classes.
I really like this idea. They already have the mechanics for non-spellcasters being able to cast spells, why not use it to fix this problem? They could keep resonance as it is but if there was a reliable healing circle ritual then you wouldn't have to eat up all your resonance to drink a couple potions after combat, you could keep them for in combat emergencies.Plus "the magic stick solves our problems, the magic stick is life" is aesthetically irritating in a way "let's take a breather" is not.If Paizo doesn't want to power up mundane healing to that extent they should just create a magical ritual ala healing circle. It wouldn't use up spell slots and would take long enough to cast that it could be disrupted if used in an hostile situation, but would provide reliable out of combat healing that isn't mundane, item based, or class locked.
I forgot that rituals took eight hours RAW but there's definitely room in the system for bursts of mini-downtime that include shorter rituals. I'd like to see a lot of the lost utility spells return as shorter rituals.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My experience with Doomsday Dawn so far re: healers-
Part 1: Group did not have a cleric, but had a druid. The druid's healing was notably not sufficient to keep them going, leading to some very short days (being at first level, they didn't have more than a couple potions). It would have been even shorter if they hadn't been in a town, because they retreated once to go find a cleric to hire to heal them.
Part 2: Group did have a cleric. Cleric's healing made this part of the adventure much easier than Part 1, but did mean that healing took up at least 50-75% of the cleric's turns.
My feeling is that the crit system currently makes for some extremely swingy combats, leading to potentially lethal encounters based more on luck than on players' tactics or party composition. This means that it's important to have at least once source of healing, but in my experience, the druid, at least, simply didn't keep up with the cleric in this regard. (It's possible this is due to the druid being lower level, but there was enough of a difference that I don't think it accounts for all of it.) I'm not a fan of requiring any one particular class for a functional party; that was one of my favorite things about PF1. We've even run parties without a divine-magic class and had it go perfectly fine.* I'd rather not lose that in PF2.
*That being said, we were more likely to have CMW or CSW wands on hand than CLW, because they could potentially be used in combat in a pinch and meant not having to roll 20 times to heal. We've never been the sort to focus on the Optimal Math Solution, though. *shrug*
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For the record a Leaf Order Druid using Goodberry actually heals a good amount - 1d4+WIS per spell level.
Heal:
Level 1: 1d8+4, avg 8.5
Level 2: 3d8+4, avg 17.5
Level 3: 5d8+4, avg 26.5
Level 4: 7d8+4, avg 35.5
Level 5: 9d8+4, avg 44.5
Level 6: 11d8+5, avg 54.5
Level 7: 13d8+5, avg 63.5
Level 8: 15d8+6, avg 73.5
Level 9: 17d8+6, avg 82.5
Level 10: 19d8+7, avg 92.5
Goodberry:
Level 1: 1d4+4, avg 6.5
Level 2: (1d4+4)x2, avg 13
Level 3: (1d4+4)x3, avg 19.5
Level 4: (1d4+4)x4, avg 26
Level 5: (1d4+4)x5, avg 32.5
Level 6: (1d4+5)x6, avg 45
Level 7: (1d4+5)x7, avg 52.5
Level 8: (1d4+6)x8, avg 68
Level 9: (1d4+6)x9, avg 76.5
Level 10: (1d4+7)x10, avg 90
Heal has two primary advantages - it takes less actions to use, and it can be cast in a burst to heal multiple creatures at once. Goodberry has it's own advantages, though - it both heals and feeds people, it heals the average amount more reliably since most of its healing comes from a flat modifier, and although a typical Cleric will be able to Channel more often at early levels a Druid can have as many uses by Level 4 if they choose feats that increase their Spell Pool. A Leaf Order Druid actually ends the game with as many as 10 Spell Points per day while Clerics can manage at most 9 Channel Energy uses (and them only by choosing a CHA-boosting item instead of a WIS-boosting one).
Of course, a Healing Domain Cleric blows both out of the water.
Contributor
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Who was the healer for the Fellowship of the Rings?
This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately, especially as I play through Dark Souls Remastered. You're right that there's no "healer" in LotR.
How often did party members actually get wounded in LotR?
LotR (and a lot of other fantasy literature) assumes that the heroes rarely suffer significant wounds. On the rare, dramatic occasion that this happens, it's generally a significant plot point requiring medical care and bed rest (The Houses of Healing), or a great work of magic (Elrond healing Frodo's Morgul-blade wound), or some special rare skill ("hands of a king"). Or straight up resurrection (Gandalf the White). Or you die (Boromir). Or you have a shiny mithril plot device (Frodo). The Fellowship wasn't losing HP every fight.
But if a healer is necessary, then it's on the group if they don't want to fill a role that's necessary.Pathfinder is designed to be playable PFS-style: a bunch of random characters thrown together with zero co-ordination. If any specific role is necessary, then it's not going to work.
If that's true, then any PFS adventure would need to have low DC for skill checks, low ACs in case the party have low attack bonuses, and no traps, in case the party has no-one good at skills, attacks, or trapfinding. Is that your experience with PFS, that the adventures never present a threat that would require a specific class or role to win?
If you think no one thinks that wands of CLW are too cheap or too easy you've just not been listening.
It's the "terrible, hacky, unintended, uninteresting, and general terrible fit" I don't get: note none of that is 'it's too cheap' or 'it's too easy'. ;)No, what I find odd is people say 'it's too cheap' but when they suggest a solution, it's even CHEAPER [ei, free] and EASIER [after each fight]. I'm not sure how a after fight nap that heals you some alter the paradigm any as anything not healed in the nap would be healed by the next efficient way [the cheapest wand].
Lets say the solution is to normalize the price of healing: healing 1 average hp costs x gp no matter the wand level or spell used. You'd run into the same issue: not because of cheapest gp/hp but cheapest action cost/hp healed. People would save the big healing items for in combat healing and use lesser ones when actions didn't matter [downtime].
So, to me, 'it's too cheap' really isn't that valid because the same thing would happen if they did cost the same per hp.
I would say not just cheap money wise but cheap investment wise as well. So if I invest heavily in the heal skill for example and can keep the party mostly healed I'm ok with that, but it is an investment. (I do really want the heal skill buffed for straight healing hp.) Also I feel like con should factor into how much your healed when you are healed.