I'm currently trying to determine if one can use giant form (the adaptive shifter ability) while in wild shape.
For reference:
Giant Form wrote:
The adaptive shifter increases in size, as per enlarge person. The adaptive shifter can assume this form only as a swift action.
The argument for:
Lasting Adaptation wrote:
At 5th level, an adaptive shifter can spend 1 minute willing her body to adapt in a more enduring way. At the end of the minute, she expends two uses of her reactive aspect and selects one lasting form she knows. She assumes this form and can maintain it until she regains her daily uses of reactive aspect or uses this ability again. This adaptation does not count against the maximum number of forms she can assume at once. She can select a form that has a minimum level only if her character level is at least 3 higher than the minimum level.
Note that it mentions 'This adaptation does not count against the maximum number of forms she can assume at once'.
The argument against:
Polymorph Rules wrote:
Spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Reactive Form wrote:
Reactive Aspect (Su): An adaptive shifter gains the ability to change parts of her body to avoid harm, gain a physical advantage, or overcome an obstacle. She can do so a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Wisdom modifier + her shifter level. By activating this ability, either as an immediate action or as a swift action, an adaptive shifter gains the benefits of one of her reactive forms until the beginning of her next turn (see below). An adaptive shifter can assume only one reactive form at a time. Activating a new reactive form (or forms) ends all reactive forms currently manifested.
Effectively this takes the stance that it refers to the functionality of reactive form itself, and that polymorph rules still apply.
This decides whether or not a player can wild shape to gargantuan so it's a pretty big deal. Any additional input and any opinions will be very helpful.
I will 3rd/4th that by RAW your not doing it. That being said it may not have been the RAI to not work together, I could see a gm allowing it if they wanted but that's going to be in their hands not the rules forums.
Okay, thanks for your input everybody. I'll pass this along to the player in question.
Do any of you happen to know of a concept, feat, or feature that would allow the shifter to increase in size that he can take a look at? It seems rather important to his build. He wants to be the biggest, pragmatism be damned.
Goliath Druids can assume the forms of huge creatures at 14th level. However, wildshape doesn't have the same text that many abilities do about it stacking with other sources of the same ability, so it may not be particularly useful, he probably couldn't just take 4 levels in Goliath Druid along with the shaping focus feat and then continue as a shifter.
The only other thing I can think of would be magic items that convey the benefits of the giant form or dragon form spells.
Okay, thanks for your input everybody. I'll pass this along to the player in question.
Do any of you happen to know of a concept, feat, or feature that would allow the shifter to increase in size that he can take a look at? It seems rather important to his build. He wants to be the biggest, pragmatism be damned.
Are you the GM? If you are just let it work if your okay with it, which i figure since your trying to figure out how to do it you are.
I'm more like the old hand of the group. Somebody else is the GM this time. I'm trying to be helpful to the player while being respectful to the dungeon master.
It's a mythic campaign; he's got enough on his plate without somebody trying to fudge some rules.
I'm more like the old hand of the group. Somebody else is the GM this time. I'm trying to be helpful to the player while being respectful to the dungeon master.
It's a mythic campaign; he's got enough on his plate without somebody trying to fudge some rules.
Spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Giant form, even if stated as "as per enlarge person", is a supernatural ability and not a spell.
Pretty clear it's working as the rule only mention spells specifically.
Unless there's a faq it's working.
Quote:
Spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
I guess you can cast enlarge person on a wild shaped druid.
Quote:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.
Guess druids keep their equipment on and wild armor is pointless.
Quote:
In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks.
Spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Giant form, even if stated as "as per enlarge person", is a supernatural ability and not a spell.
Pretty clear it's working as the rule only mention spells specifically.
That's because the CRB has about zero future proofing. If we take some of these overly narrow things in the CRB literal, the game stops working because many things lack rules. As willuwontu shows, the Polymorph rules only talk about spells, as well, which means by literal reading we don't have any rules on how Wild Shape works, which means we can't use it.
Either we accept that the CRB is imprecise in some areas, and extrapolate using common sense; or we play a game were lots of these abilities stop to function. I know what I pick.
@willuwontu: Actually, Unfettered Wild Shape says you "turn into other creatures". Without the polymorph rules, you'd literally turn into such an animal, int 2 and everything.
@willuwontu: Actually, Unfettered Wild Shape says you "turn into other creatures". Without the polymorph rules, you'd literally turn into such an animal, int 2 and everything.
It also means the no template clause doesn't apply.
Upon careful reading, I would say no. "Forms" is in reference to the fact all (most, there are also single action only adaptations that are not called forms) of the reactive forms are forms. Unfettered Wild Shape is not a form in the context of this ability.
Additionally, unlike the base shifter, Reactive Aspect is not specified as usable during wild shape.
Shifter Aspect:
At 1st level, a shifter gains her first aspect—a category of animal to which her body and soul have become supernaturally attuned. She can shift into her aspect’s minor form (see Aspects on page 28) for a number of minutes per day equal to 3 + her shifter level. The duration need not be consecutive but must be spent in 1-minute increments. Shifting into a minor form is a swift action, while ending the effect is a free action that can be taken only on the shifter’s turn. Until a shifter reaches 9th level and gains the chimeric aspect class feature, she can assume only one minor form at a time. Shifting to a new aspect (or aspects, in the case of chimeric aspects or greater chimeric aspects) ends all minor forms currently manifested. The minor forms of aspects are not polymorph effects, and the shifter does not lose the benefits of a minor form while affected by polymorph effects. As the shifter gains levels, she gains more aspects; she gains her second aspect at 5th level, a third aspect at 10th level, and a fourth at 15th level. Aspects are detailed in their own section starting on page 28.
Reactive Aspect:
An adaptive shifter gains the ability to change parts of her body to avoid harm, gain a physical advantage, or overcome an obstacle. She can do so a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Wisdom modifier + her shifter level. By activating this ability, either as an immediate action or as a swift action, an adaptive shifter gains the benefits of one of her reactive forms until the beginning of her next turn (see below). An adaptive shifter can assume only one reactive form at a time. Activating a new reactive form (or forms) ends all reactive forms currently manifested.At 9th level, an adaptive shifter gains the benefits of up to two reactive forms whenever she uses this ability. At 14th level, she can assume up to three forms. At 20th level, she learns all reactive forms and doubles her effective Wisdom modifier for the purpose of calculating her uses of reactive aspect per day.This replaces shifter aspect, chimeric aspect, greater chimeric aspect, and final aspect.
So as far as I can tell, while Adaptive Shifter may get better wild shape, and the reactive aspects are a bit nicer, they cannot be used simultaneously (probably the tradeoff for stronger abilities).
Additionally, unlike the base shifter, Reactive Aspect is not specified as usable during wild shape.
Doesn't need to be, reactive forms aren't specified as polymorph effects, so you can use them in wild shape.
Yeah, it works on the ground of "there's no rule that says it doesn't", so you can use Reactive Aspect as given. Only giant form doesn't work, because there is an explicit rule preventing the combination.
The way I see it is that you would be able to use Giant Form paired with Wild shape. Logic is as follows:
Wildshape and beast form strip you of any supernatural abilities of your natural form, Blind sight, keen sense etc etc.. Fortunately, The Reactive and Shifter aspects are abilities tied to your class, not your natural form.
Now, Reactive aspect is a modification of Shifter Aspect which states that it is not a polymorph effect, which in my mind should carry over to any archetype modifications. This also paired with Derklord's statement of it working because there's no rules against it.
So, pairing those statements together gives you access to using Reactive Aspect while using Wildshape, but how about using Giant Form?
I will admit that the following argument toes the line here, but i'll pitch it anyways.
Wildshape is defined as an "ability functions like the beast shape I spell". We'll start with the fact that it is still classified as an ability, not a spell. Rules we have are currently for polymorph spells. It also states that it "functions like" not that it is. Big difference because instead of taking the beast shape spell and looking at it as a whole, you are instead gutting it and taking just the bits that say "you get x,y and z" You technically are no longer looking at Resistances, components, or even the School. The school is a big part of this because it truly strips away the any argument that this is a polymorph spell, which its not. It is an ability that for the sake of time was given the same rule set as a similar spell.
The same logic can be similarly applied to Giant Form. It is listed as "The adaptive shifter increases in size, as per enlarge person." At no point does Giant Form say it is enlarge person, just that the shifter gains the same effects as if they were being affected by enlarge person. Like I said this is toeing the line a bit. It is a small but crucial difference of "this thing is this" vs "this thing is like this".
Also to kind of... expand on this type of situation. This scenario would be something that is specific to the Shifter. You would need the wildshape ability and another ability or spell that increases size without having the condition of "target: one humanoid creature". That is to say, a druid would not be able to shift into a Hawk and have a mage cast enlarge person on them. However, a Druid with the Plant/Growth domain...
Did you actually read this thread? We had that discussion already. If we don't use the rules for polymorph spells, either we can't use wild shape at all because we don't know how, or we turn into an int 2 animal.
Did you actually read this thread? We had that discussion already. If we don't use the rules for polymorph spells, either we can't use wild shape at all because we don't know how, or we turn into an int 2 animal.
I did read it, and i stand by this is a matter of is vs is like.
Beast Shape I wrote:
you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type......
Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.
Via the guidelines i stated earlier this is the bit you are paying attention to because it is like not is. Through supernatural ability you are assuming the form of an animal. The mechanics text says nothing about losing any mental qualities, so the argument about not knowing how, or simply turning into an int 2 animal is kind of nixed.
In regards to Polymorph rules, There is this bit of text that I'll admit i missed
Polymorph magic rules wrote:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Wildshape here is defined as a polymorph effect, not a spell. However, it does seem to loop it in with the same clause of "one at a time". So this then loops back to specifically the aspects.
Shifter Aspect wrote:
The minor forms of aspects are not polymorph effects, and the shifter does not lose the benefits of a minor form while affected by polymorph effects.
If we can agree that because Reactive Aspect is an adaption of Shifter Aspect it should retain/build off that bit of text. It would then follow that because the Reactive Aspect and forms are not Polymorph effects Giant Form can be activated while in wild shape. Giant Form at that point is neither a polymorph spell nor a polymorph effect, its just an effect. It is like, not is. And this may kill the possibility of doing this with a druid with plant/growth domain because of that bit of text. But if one class in all of pathfinder is capable of pulling this off, I'm ok with it.
The minor forms of aspects are not polymorph effects, and the shifter does not lose the benefits of a minor form while affected by polymorph effects.
If we can agree that because Reactive Aspect is an adaption of Shifter Aspect it should retain/build off that bit of text. It would then follow that because the Reactive Aspect and forms are not Polymorph effects Giant Form can be able to be activated while in wild shape. Because Giant Form at that point is neither a polymorph spell nor a polymorph effect. It is like, not is. And this may kill the possibility of doing this with a druid with plant/growth domain because of that bit of text. But if one class in all of pathfinder if capable of pulling this off, I'm ok with it.
I disagree. As I quoted both Shifter Aspect, and Reactive Aspect above I won't quote them again. Reactive Aspect does not alter Shifter Aspect as say Lycanthrope Aspect from the Weretouched archtype, Reactive Aspect replaces it, thus none of Shifter Aspect is retained. Paizo are clear on wording when an ability alters an effect or replaces it.
The minor forms of aspects are not polymorph effects, and the shifter does not lose the benefits of a minor form while affected by polymorph effects.
If we can agree that because Reactive Aspect is an adaption of Shifter Aspect it should retain/build off that bit of text. It would then follow that because the Reactive Aspect and forms are not Polymorph effects Giant Form can be able to be activated while in wild shape. Because Giant Form at that point is neither a polymorph spell nor a polymorph effect. It is like, not is. And this may kill the possibility of doing this with a druid with plant/growth domain because of that bit of text. But if one class in all of pathfinder if capable of pulling this off, I'm ok with it.
I disagree. As I quoted both Shifter Aspect, and Reactive Aspect above I won't quote them again. Reactive Aspect does not alter Shifter Aspect as say Lycanthrope Aspect from the Weretouched archtype, Reactive Aspect replaces it, thus none of Shifter Aspect is retained. Paizo are clear on wording when an ability alters an effect or replaces it.
Fair, It does say replace, not alter. I will give you that. I apologize but I am going to fight this tooth and nail.
Polymorph magic rules" wrote:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Wild Shape Has been Defined By Paizo as a Polymorph Effect here. Can we apply the same to Giant Form? It's again an issue of is vs is like. Personally I feel we can classify it as such. Both Wild shape and Giant Form use the terms "as per" and "functions like". Even if we can Paizo rules, as stated above and again now, say that "other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."
Wild shape is not a polymorph spell, so TECHNICALLY it could be combined with a size increasing spell or effect, so long as that spell or effect did not have the polymorph descriptor, as per the initial part of those polymorph rules. Comes down to If you are going to allow any of Reactive Aspect in wild shape, you really need to allow all of it. If "Stretching Form: The adaptive shifter’s reach with natural weapons increases by 5 feet." is applicable, then that means it is not a polymorph effect or spell, otherwise it would be killed by the first part of the polymorph rules. Which in turn should then apply to the reactive aspects as a whole. You take away Reactive aspects from a Reactive Shifter and all you've really done is created a Druid that cant cast spells, can't turn into elementals, but gets a +5 to BAB. woo.
Comes down to If you are going to allow any of Reactive Aspect in wild shape, you really need to allow all of it. If "Stretching Form: The adaptive shifter’s reach with natural weapons increases by 5 feet." is applicable, then that means it is not a polymorph effect or spell, otherwise it would be killed by the first part of the polymorph rules.
Reactive aspects are not polymorph effects, so the polymorph rules don't nix using them in wild shape. Giant form specifically functions as per enlarge person, which does not work in wild shape per the polymorph rules.
I'll reiterate myself on what happens if wild shape doesnt function as a polymorph spell.
willuwontu wrote:
Padawanchichi wrote:
Quote:
Spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Giant form, even if stated as "as per enlarge person", is a supernatural ability and not a spell.
Pretty clear it's working as the rule only mention spells specifically.
Unless there's a faq it's working.
Quote:
Spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
I guess you can cast enlarge person on a wild shaped druid.
Quote:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.
Guess druids keep their equipment on and wild armor is pointless.
Quote:
In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks.
They also don't gain any natural attacks.
/s
Quote:
You take away Reactive aspects from a Reactive Shifter and all you've really done is created a Druid that cant cast spells, can't turn into elementals, but gets a +5 to BAB. woo.
Why do you think people give the class so much flak, there's so many issues it has. Don't get me started on the editing of the archetypes ...
Reactive aspects are not polymorph effects, so the polymorph rules don't nix using them in wild shape. Giant form specifically functions as per enlarge person, which does not work in wild shape per the polymorph rules.
I'll reiterate myself on what happens if wild shape doesnt function as a polymorph spell.
Polymorph rules literally states that Wild Shape is not a polymorph spell. It's a polymorph effect, which isn't affected at all by the wording of the size changes clause. Unless you are wanting to change this discussion from RAW to RAI?
Polymorph magic rules wrote:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Wild shape is a polymorph effect defined by spells; as beast shape X, as elemental form Y. If it was defined separately you might have a point there LeSteiny, but absent that I don't think you do.
Reactive aspects are not polymorph effects, so the polymorph rules don't nix using them in wild shape. Giant form specifically functions as per enlarge person, which does not work in wild shape per the polymorph rules.
I'll reiterate myself on what happens if wild shape doesnt function as a polymorph spell.
Polymorph rules literally states that Wild Shape is not a polymorph spell. It's a polymorph effect, which isn't affected at all by the wording of the size changes clause. Unless you are wanting to change this discussion from RAW to RAI?
Polymorph magic rules wrote:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Now what does it say you gain as a polymorph effect in the rules?
Nothing, you don't gain anything from a polymorph effect per polymorph rules.
Since it doesn't gain anything from the polymorph rules, lets take a look at the ability in question and see what it grants.
Unfettered Wild Shape wrote:
At 6th level, an adaptive shifter gains the ability to turn into other creatures. This functions as a druid’s wild shape ability, except she does not gain the ability to turn into an elemental. The shifter’s effective druid level is equal to her class level. She can use this ability for a number of hours per day equal to half her effective druid level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-hour increments. For abilities that function based on “uses of wild shape,” each hour of unfettered wild shape counts as a use.
It works as druid wild shape with some differences, let's look at druid wild shape then.
Wild Shape wrote:
At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
A druid can use this ability an additional time per day at 6th level and every two levels thereafter, for a total of eight times at 18th level. At 20th level, a druid can use wild shape at will. As a druid gains in levels, this ability allows the druid to take on the form of larger and smaller animals, elementals, and plants. Each form expends one daily usage of this ability, regardless of the form taken.
At 6th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Large or Tiny animal or a Small elemental. When taking the form of an animal, a druid’s wild shape now functions as beast shape II. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape functions as elemental body I.
At 8th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge or Diminutive animal, a Medium elemental, or a Small or Medium plant creature. When taking the form of animals, a druid’s wild shape now functions as beast shape III. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as elemental body II. When taking the form of a plant creature, the druid’s wild shape functions as plant shape I.
At 10th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Large elemental or a Large plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as elemental body III. When taking the form of a plant, the druid’s wild shape now functions as plant shape II.
At 12th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge elemental or a Huge plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as elemental body IV. When taking the form of a plant, the druid’s wild shape now functions as plant shape III.
It functions like beast shape, lets look at beast shape to see what the effect grants.
Beast Shape I wrote:
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent.
Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.
We're not casting the spell, so nothing happens. I guess we get nothing. /thread
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However, since you likely won't accept that lets look at what it grants. It grants certain abilities based on the form of the creature, modifies your ability bonuses, and grants natural armor.
It does not grant any natural attacks, nor does it cause your equipment to merge into you or change to fit your form. Any armor you're wearing is likely no longer suited for you, any weapons or items you were carrying in your hand are now dropped. You can also use somatic and verbal components, and enlarge person can be cast on you.
Also note that you can cast a polymorph spell on someone wild shaped.
Polymorph magic rules wrote:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Only activating wild shape causes you to decide, if you're already wild shaped you can accept another one.
Willuwontu, I respect your argument. I can see where you are coming from, but this all still comes back to "like". Rules so far have stated that yes, Wild Shape Operates like Beast Form. The two are linked in definition. But because Wild shape has been defined as a separate entity that is not targeted specifically by some of the rules, it should not be kept to them no matter how similarly it operates to beast shape. Wild shape is a rectangle, Beast form is a square. They both are very similar, but it is one small difference that sets them worlds apart.
Willuwontu, I respect your argument. I can see where you are coming from, but this all still comes back to "like". Rules so far have stated that yes, Wild Shape Operates like Beast Form. The two are linked in definition. But because Wild shape has been defined as a separate entity that is not targeted specifically by some of the rules, it should not be kept to them no matter how similarly it operates to beast shape. Wild shape is a rectangle, Beast form is a square. They both are very similar, but it is one small difference that sets them worlds apart.
So you think that wild shape doesn't grant natural attacks and allows enlarge person to be cast on you?
You can't choose to count as a polymorph spell for only portions of it, and not as a polymorph spell for the rest.
I'm not choosing that, they are.
Wild shape is basically saying that a user gains everything that beast shape normally would for the sake of simplicity. Polymorph Rules are saying that Everything that is a polymorph spell specifically is restricted by X. Wild shape is not a polymorph spell, therefore it is not restricted.
Same thing with the square vs rectangle argument. A Rectangle is like a square, but it doesnt have 4 congruent sides.
they are very very similar, they share a lot of the same qualities, but in the end they have been defined as different and should be treated as such. Rules as written are applying specifically to one, not the other.
Wild shape is basically saying that a user gains everything that beast shape normally would for the sake of simplicity. Polymorph Rules are saying that Everything that is a polymorph spell specifically is restricted by X. Wild shape is not a polymorph spell, therefore it is not restricted.
The polymorph rules do restrict some things. They also give things, which I demonstrated up above. If wild shape is not treated as a polymorph spell it doesn't grant natural attacks, nor does it restrict certain things (like casting).
The polymorph rules do restrict some things. They also give things, which I demonstrated up above. If wild shape is not treated as a polymorph spell it doesn't grant natural attacks, nor does it restrict certain things (like casting).
Wild shape itself actually inhibits casting both in terms of somatic and material components.
With what you are saying about being able to gain the form but not the natural attacks. You are proposing that turning into a large lizard with a giant mouth and sharp pointy teeth, does not in fact allow you to bite anything. Common sense says that is a touch ridiculous. Especially when you were inferring that you would gain INT 2 by taking an animal form if Wild Shape wasn't treated as a polymorph spell, despite it not saying that anywhere in the rules.
Now going back to restrictions and the square vs rectangle example.
A rectangle is like a square. We have that statement, and it is verifiable as true. we now have a rule that has two clauses. "All squares (or rectangles) must be painted blue. Additionally, All squares must have red dots." Are you going to paint red dots on the rectangles? No, you wouldn't because despite a rectangle being define partially by a square, it at the end of the day is not a square.
Furthermore, We earlier agreed that all of The Reactive Aspects are not Polymorph effects or spells otherwise they wouldn't work at all with wild shape. If Reactive Aspects are not Spells or Effects, then they are not bound by those clauses in the polymorph rules. Why? Because again, the rules specifically target polymorph spells, or in the case of "one at a time" clause, polymorph effects.
Polymorph magic rules wrote:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Wild shape cannot simultaneously be defined as a polymorph spell, and a polymorph effect. It acts as Beast Shape only in the sense of for beast shape I you can take on the form of a small or medium animal(with their intended natural attacks as covered in their form, your dinosaurs teeth don't magically fall out..) and gain the specified stat boosts. that's it, otherwise it is its own entity.
I get that the rules are not clear at times, which is why we have discussions such as this. Ultimately though, it is up to Each individual GM on how they want to rule things like this. This is my take on it. Doesn't mean its the correct one, doesn't meant its the wrong one. It just takes what rules are written and applies them as such. No where does it say that you don't gain natural attacks if you take on the form of an animal by means other than polymorph. It simply says in the polymorph rules that you may gain them through polymorph means. RAW vs RAI
The polymorph rules do restrict some things. They also give things, which I demonstrated up above. If wild shape is not treated as a polymorph spell it doesn't grant natural attacks, nor does it restrict certain things (like casting).
Wild shape itself actually inhibits casting both in terms of somatic and material components.
Incorrect, wild shape itself says nothing about casting, closest it comes to is this line:
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A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
This could be interpreted as disrupting verbal components, but nowhere does it state that you are unable to use them. Nor does it state anything about your equipment merging with you, therefore you have your material components available to you.
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With what you are saying about being able to gain the form but not the natural attacks. You are proposing that turning into a large lizard with a giant mouth and sharp pointy teeth, does not in fact allow you to bite anything.
Only polymorph spells gain them, not polymorph effects per the rules. If you can find something that says they do I'll gladly rescind this point.
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Common sense says that is a touch ridiculous.
Common sense also says that if it functions like a spell it acts as though it is that spell save for the specific benefits of being supernatural.
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Especially when you were inferring that you would gain INT 2 by taking an animal form if Wild Shape wasn't treated as a polymorph spell, despite it not saying that anywhere in the rules.
This has not been and is not my position, this is Derklords position.
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Now going back to restrictions and the square vs rectangle example.
A rectangle is like a square. We have that statement, and it is verifiable as true. we now have a rule that has two clauses. "All squares (or rectangles) must be painted blue. Additionally, All squares must have red dots." Are you going to paint red dots on the rectangles? No, you wouldn't because despite a rectangle being define partially by a square, it at the end of the day is not a square.
Correct, and if the rules said, "All rectangles must be painted blue. All squares are painted like rectangles except they get a red dot as well." You wouldn't give the squares only a red dot, they'd also be painted blue.
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Furthermore, We earlier agreed that all of The Reactive Aspects are not Polymorph effects or spells otherwise they wouldn't work at all with wild shape. If Reactive Aspects are not Spells or Effects, then they are not bound by those clauses in the polymorph rules. Why? Because again, the rules specifically target polymorph spells, or in the case of "one at a time" clause, polymorph effects.
Correct, in general they dont conflict. Giant form is a special case.
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Polymorph magic rules wrote:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Wild shape cannot simultaneously be defined as a polymorph spell, and a polymorph effect. It acts as Beast Shape only in the sense of for beast shape I you can take on the form of a small or medium animal(with their intended natural attacks as covered in their form, your dinosaurs teeth don't magically fall out..) and gain the specified stat boosts. that's it, otherwise it is its own entity.
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In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks.
Oh look, it specifies polymorph spell, you dont gain em unless it counts as one. You don't get to count as a spell for a select few things in the polymorph rules, and not as one for a few other things.
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I get that the rules are not clear at times, which is why we have discussions such as this. Ultimately though, it is up to Each individual GM on how they want to rule things like this. This is my take on it. Doesn't mean its the correct one, doesn't meant its the wrong one. It just takes what rules are written and applies them as such. No where does it say that you don't gain natural attacks if you take on the form of an animal by means other than polymorph. It simply says in the polymorph rules that you may gain them through polymorph means. RAW vs RAI
No what it says, is that you gain em through polymorph spells, as in spells with the polymorph descriptor. This is the RAW.
RAI, I dont think it's intended for druids to be able to have enlarge person cast on themselves while wild shaped.
This could be interpreted as disrupting verbal components, but nowhere does it state that you are unable to use them. Nor does it state anything about your equipment merging with you, therefore you have your material components available to you.
This is kinda what I meant… I’ll humor you here though. We take the form of.. oh let’s say a Tiger. So for this, we’re following my ruling where While Shape is not bound by polymorph rules, but, we’re following your ruling where our equipment just falls on the ground, and we don’t gain any natural attacks, and we can’t speak as we now have the natural roar of a tiger(hm.. no natural claws, but natural voice box? Natural… natural… hm..Discrepancies? Ok.) Now what we have here is a Toothless, De-clawed Tiger, pawing at a pouch of components trying to cast “Create Treasure Map” for our buddy Calvin and failing, because we lack the manual dexterity (from our lack of hands and/or fingers) to open our component pouch, much less make out the somatic components with our fuzzy (little?) paws. This is the point I was making with that comment. Admittedly, I screwed up somatic vs verbal in that, I will give you that.
willuwontu wrote:
Only polymorph spells gain them, not polymorph effects per the rules. If you can find something that says they do I'll gladly rescind this point.
Let’s jump back a bit then to Form. What does “form” encompass? By your ruling it’s sounding like it’s just the shape and possibly the texture/fur of the animal or being that you are transforming into. No natural attacks or abilities. Which, I will concede abilities to you, as that is clearly covered in Beast Shape. Which Wild Shape, as a Supernatural(not Spell-Like) ability, operates as Beast Shape. However, If we take a little gander over to Eidolon Creation, One of the first things you do there is pick a form. What is form classified there as? A stat block that lists Size, Speed, AC, Saves, Ability scores and Attacks. Kay, now lets take a look at the Lycanthrope template. In there we now have 2 new forms for a creature that are being defined as per the form of a animal. It seems to point towards form being defined as Size, AC bonuses, Speed, Melee, and Special Attacks. Per Beast Form, a lot of these are limited by the spell descriptor itself, which is really what we are paying attention to here in regards to “function as”, not the polymorph rules, which are specifically targeting spells of that school/sub-school.
Let’s try something here. We’re going to use Wild Shape as a Polymorph Effect, without using the polymorph Sub-School rules but achieving the same end goal.
Meet Jim Bob, He’s our lvl7 Human Druid for this experiment.
”Jim Bob”:
Human druid 7
N Medium humanoid
Init +0; Senses Perception +10
DEFENSE AC 11, touch 10, flat-footed 11 (+1 armor)
hp 38 (7d8+7)
Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +10; +4 vs. fey and plant–targeted effects
Defensive Abilities resist nature’s lure
OFFENSE Speed 30 ft.
Melee quarterstaff +4 (1d6–1)
Special Attacks wild shape 2/day
Druid Spells Prepared (CL 7th; concentration +11)
4th—air walk, flame strike (DC 18)
3rd—call lightning (DC 18), speak with plants, stone shape
2nd—flaming sphere (DC 18), hold animal (DC 18), resist energy, tree shape
1st—cure light wounds, endure elements, hide from animals, longstrider, produce flame
0 (at will) ——create water, guidance, mending, purify food and drink
STATISTICS Str 8, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 12
Base Atk +5; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Craft Wand, Natural Spell, Self-Sufficient
Skills Fly +10, Handle Animal +11, Heal +18, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (geography) +10, Knowledge (nature) +12, Linguistics +5, Perception +10, Profession (gardener) +10, Profession (herbalist) +10, Spellcraft +6, Survival +18, Swim +4
Languages Aquan, Auran, Common, Ignan, Sylvan, Terran
SQ nature bond (owl animal companion), nature sense, trackless step, wild empathy +8, woodland stride
Other Gear quarterstaff, Wild Padded Armor, wooden holy symbol
Using wild shape we take the form of a Cheetah. And, with using the eidolons definition of form, poof, we’re a cute fuzzy Medium sized Cheetah with a likeness of the stat block of a Cheetah. (first one is Cheetah stat block as a whole, second is just the “form”)
Cheetah:
N Medium animal
Init +8; Senses low-light vision, ;scent; Perception +5
DEFENSE AC 15, touch 14, flat-footed 11 (+4 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 19 (3d8+6)
Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +2
OFFENSE Speed 50 ft.; sprint
Melee bite +6 (1d6+3 plus trip), 2 claws +6 (1d3+3)
STATISTICS Str 17, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +2; CMB +5; CMD 19 (23 vs. trip)
Feats Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +8, Perception +5, Stealth +8 (+12 in tall grass); Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth in tall grass
SPECIAL ABILITIES Sprint (Ex)
Once per hour, a cheetah can move at 10 times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge.
Cheetah “form”:
Medium
DEFENSE AC 15, touch 14, flat-footed 11 (+4 Dex, +1 natural)
Fort ?, Ref ?, Will ?
OFFENSE Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +6 (1d6+3), 2 claws +6 (1d3+3)
STATISTICS Str 17, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
SPECIAL ABILITIES
So far all we have done is removed everything aside from Size, Speed, AC, Saves, Attacks and Ability Scores. You may note that we’ve suddenly lost our saves, why? Well, we stripped out our type, our saves were directly tied to our type.
Now, Beast Shape I says:
Beast Shape I wrote:
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent.
Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.
So theres a couple things highlighted in that quote. Foremost is the change to Ability Scores. They Specifically target your ability scores. Looking further to Beast Shape II we see that a previously unmentioned ability score for our medium form, dexterity, is classified as using your ability score. From that, it is safe to assume that all ability scores are ‘intended’ to be using your normal forms’ scores. I say intended because It doesn't make sense To have Dex 7 and turn into a Medium wolf with Dex 15 Via Beast Form I, But then go and turn into a Dire Wolf with Beast Form II and suddenly you are at Dex 5. Additionally, there is an increase to natural armor. For simplicity sake, we are going to say all our equipment just falls off when we Wild Shape here. We’re now at base 10 armor, plus ability scores plus that nice +2 natural armor, which overrides the +1 that the Cheetah previously had (does not stack). Based off that info, coupled with the notes about listed abilities, we are now here:
Cheetah partial Wild Shape:
Medium
Senses low-light vision 30ft, ;scent;
DEFENSE AC 12, touch 10, flat-footed 12 (+0 Dex, +2 natural)
Fort +?, Ref +?, Will +?
OFFENSE Speed 30 ft.
Melee bite +? (1d6), 2 claws +? (1d3)
STATISTICS Str 10, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 12
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Already we’ve established that as a polymorph effect, and not a spell adherent to the polymorph spell sub-school rules, we’ve gained most everything we need. All we are missing is our Alignment, Type, HP, saves, spells, feats, our BAB, and our CMB/CMD. At our essence we are still a Druid, so most of these can be pulled from our Normal Form character sheet, which in turn is pulled from the Druid Class chart. Alignment we can argue is tied to our psyche, which in turn is tied to our mental ability scores, which remain unchanged. Type though, per polymorph rules does not change. However, we are treating this as something not being bound by polymorph rules. Argument then is: form in its definition does not include a creature’s type. For the Eidolons, they are pre-classified as an outsider taking on a form. In this scenario, we have been pre-classified as a humanoid taking on the form of a cheetah, the terminology of “form” strips out the animal type. This leaves us here:
Cheetah Full Wild Shape:
Human druid 7
N Medium humanoid
Init +0; Senses low-light vision Perception +10, ;scent;
DEFENSE AC 12, touch 10, flat-footed 12 (+0 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 38 (7d8+7)
Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +10; +4 vs. fey and plant–targeted effects
Defensive Abilities resist nature’s lure
OFFENSE Speed 30 ft.;
Melee bite +5 (1d6), 2 claws +5 (1d3)
Special Attacks wild shape 2/day
Druid Spells Prepared (CL 7th; concentration +11)
4th—air walk, flame strike (DC 18)
3rd—call lightning (DC 18), speak with plants, stone shape
2nd—flaming sphere (DC 18), hold animal (DC 18), resist energy, tree shape
1st—cure light wounds, endure elements, hide from animals, longstrider, produce flame
0 (at will) ——create water, guidance, mending, purify food and drink
STATISTICS Str 10, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 12
Base Atk +5; CMB +5; CMD 15
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Craft Wand, Natural Spell, Self-Sufficient
Skills Fly +10, Handle Animal +11, Heal +18, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (geography) +10, Knowledge (nature) +12, Linguistics +5, Perception +10, Profession (gardener) +10, Profession (herbalist) +10, Spellcraft +6, Survival +18, Swim +4
Languages Aquan, Auran, Common, Ignan, Sylvan, Terran
SQ nature bond (owl animal companion), nature sense, trackless step, wild empathy +8, woodland stride
SPECIAL ABILITIES
So using the definition of form and just the spell descriptor (which is all you should be looking at in terms of “functions like”) we’ve managed to turn into a Cheetah. There is still the question of our gear, What happens to it? There’s two point i would argue here. If you look back, Jim Bob’s armor has the ‘Wild’ descriptor. As per armor qualities this allows us to retain our armor value while shapeshifted. In order to have the armor value at all, we need to have the armor equipped which infers that even shapeshifted, we have it equipped. So, we now have basis to argue that Jim Bob’s equipment melds when he WildShapes. Armor is Equipment, Amor gives AC bonus only while equipped, Wild states You can retain any AC bonus from armor when WildShaped, thus Armor melds when WildShaping, Equipment Melds when WildShaping. Second point to this goes back to the Lycanthrope template. The Change Shape SU ability there states that Equipment melds with the wearer when they shift to their pure animal form, but not their hybrid form. This is in no way related to the Polymorph Subschool Rules. Between this and Wild, Its is safe to say that All equipment melds with WildShape, as the functionality is not specific to the Polymorph Subschool Rules.
willuwontu wrote:
Common sense also says that if it functions like a spell it acts as though it is that spell save for the specific benefits of being supernatural.
This is not the case at all..The argument you are posing is this: “If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.” Well, our Supernatural Ability sure looks like a duck, It swims like a duck, oh, but it doesn't quite quack like a duck. In fact, it’s been specifically been listed as something other than a duck. Abitionally if we are going to say that “Functions like X Spell” means that a Supernatural abilities are spells in terms of rules, that opens the floodgates on a whole slew of other issues. Meta-magic feats, Spell focus Feats, component cost, ETC ETC. You cannot count it as a spell for the sake of Sub-School Spell Rules and then deny everything else that applies to Spells Specifically, but is not listed in the supernatural abilities rulings.
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 221 wrote:
Supernatural Abilities: These can’t be disrupted in combat and generally don’t provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren’t subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don’t function in antimagic areas.
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 554 wrote:
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table 16–1 for a summary of the types of special abilities.
willuwontu wrote:
This has not been and is not my position, this is Derklords position.
Fair enough
willuwontu wrote:
Correct, and if the rules said, "All rectangles must be painted blue. All squares are painted like rectangles except they get a red dot as well." You wouldn't give the squares only a red dot, they'd also be painted blue.
You are correct, you wouldn’t paint the squares with only a red dot. However, this is not how the Polymorph rules are worded.
A Rectangle is like a Square : This ability functions like the beast shape I spell
All squares (or rectangles) must be painted blue : If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.
Additionally, all squares must have red dots : In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Wording and sentence structure is very important here.
willuwontu wrote:
Correct, in general they dont conflict. Giant form is a special case.
Its a special case only in the sense that you are trying to turn a Su ability which has previously been classified as neither a polymorph effect, nor a spell, and turn it into a spell...
willuwontu wrote:
Oh look, it specifies polymorph spell, you dont gain em unless it counts as one. You don't get to count as a spell for a select few things in the polymorph rules, and not as one for a few other things.
Guess we better Tell The Lycanthropes they dont get their Natural Attacks because they didnt gain them through a polymorph spell..
willuwontu wrote:
No what it says, is that you gain em through polymorph spells, as in spells with the polymorph descriptor. This is the RAW.
RAI, I dont think it's intended for druids to be able to have enlarge person cast on themselves while wild shaped.
RAI and RAW I agree, it is not. Mostly because Enlarge person as a spell is
1. Not a polymorph spell, just a reg transmutation spell
2. Has to abide by the “In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.” bit in regards to other polymorph spells.
3. Possibly most importantly, it has to target a humanoid creature. Which it cannot when a druid is in wild shape form.
However, we have 2 specific instances where a supernatural ability gives the ability to “function as” enlarge person. This does not mean that it magically becomes Enlarge person. All it is doing is pulling information from the spell descriptor detailing the effects. This is the same thing that I am arguing for WildShape.
willuwontu wrote:
Also note that this argument explicitly only applies to forms the same size as your character, as the Size Stacking FAQ applies.
I’ll be honest, I don’t have a good answer for this, Mostly because I haven't done any research on the specifics to this. I’ll get back to you on this. For now where we are at in this conversation I will agree that this would only work on Medium forms.
So for this, we’re following my ruling where While Shape is not bound by polymorph rules, but, we’re following your ruling where our equipment just falls on the ground, and we don’t gain any natural attacks, and we can’t speak as we now have the natural roar of a tiger(hm.. no natural claws, but natural voice box? Natural… natural… hm..Discrepancies? Ok.)
I'm not the one who's saying that the effects doesn't work as per a polymorph spell, which would grant natural attacks, merge equipment, and halt spellcasting as well as other things that I may have missed.
Taking this pair of quotes out of order.
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Kay, now lets take a look at the Lycanthrope template. In there we now have 2 new forms for a creature that are being defined as per the form of a animal. It seems to point towards form being defined as Size, AC bonuses, Speed, Melee, and Special Attacks.
Lycanthropic template points even more towards wild shape being treated as a polymorph spell, and is a faulty argument for your stance. This is because the ability to change forms is the change shape supernatural ability.
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their descriptions.
Format: change shape (wolf, beast shape I); Location: SQ, and in Special Abilities for creatures with a unique listing.
As we can see were-bears/wolves/etc (werebearwolves!) using their forms functions as a polymorph spell.
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However, If we take a little gander over to Eidolon Creation, One of the first things you do there is pick a form. What is form classified there as? A stat block that lists Size, Speed, AC, Saves, Ability scores and Attacks.
So you get the Size, Speed, AC, Saves, Ability scores and Attacks of your new form then. You don't modify this because you don't think it suits your argument, this is how it works then according to you.
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This is not the case at all..The argument you are posing is this: “If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.” Well, our Supernatural Ability sure looks like a duck, It swims like a duck, oh, but it doesn't quite quack like a duck. In fact, it’s been specifically been listed as something other than a duck. Abitionally if we are going to say that “Functions like X Spell” means that a Supernatural abilities are spells in terms of rules, that opens the floodgates on a whole slew of other issues. Meta-magic feats, Spell focus Feats, component cost, ETC ETC. You cannot count it as a spell for the sake of Sub-School Spell Rules and then deny everything else that applies to Spells Specifically, but is not listed in the supernatural abilities rulings.
No, my point is "functions like" means that it follows the same rules amd restrictions that that spell would follow with some exceptions. A supernatural ability that "functions like" scrying (the spell) wouldn't get to ignore any lead sheeting and magical protection the target has, despite it only blocking a scrying (the descriptor) spell.
Reiterating on this point, I'll use your pointed quote.
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These can’t be disrupted in combat and generally don’t provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren’t subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don’t function in antimagic areas.
So an SU that "functions like" a specific spell, would work as that spell except it isn't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity (unless it said it did).
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Its a special case only in the sense that you are trying to turn a Su ability which has previously been classified as neither a polymorph effect, nor a spell, and turn it into a spell...
Because it (giant form) "functions as" a spell, therefore it has to follow the restrictions of that spell (enlarge person). See bottom for more.
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Guess we better Tell The Lycanthropes they dont get their Natural Attacks because they didnt gain them through a polymorph spell..
Actually ... (See lycanthrope stuff above)
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RAI and RAW I agree, it is not. Mostly because Enlarge person as a spell is
1. Not a polymorph spell, just a reg transmutation spell
Which is exactly why it works according to your position. Since wild shape is not a polymorph spell, enlarge person would work.
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Spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Remember this oft quoted line.
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2. Has to abide by the “In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.” bit in regards to other polymorph spells.
Except it isn't a polymorph spell, it is just a transmutation spell. Additionally, you say wild shape doesn't function as a polymorph spell.
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3. Possibly most importantly, it has to target a humanoid creature. Which it cannot when a druid is in wild shape form.
Wild shaping does not change your creature type. You can cast charm person, hold person, etc on a wild shaped druid. If wild shape doesn't function as a polymorph spell, enlarge person works on it as well.
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However, we have 2 specific instances where a supernatural ability gives the ability to “function as” enlarge person. This does not mean that it magically becomes Enlarge person. All it is doing is pulling information from the spell descriptor detailing the effects. This is the same thing that I am arguing for WildShape.
It means it follows all the same restrictions as the base spell, lets look at one of the abilities that "functions as" enlarge person as an SU.
At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren’t humanoid.
Note how it has "even if you aren’t humanoid" as a clause for the ability. This is because enlarge person doesn't work on non-humanoids, therefore it has to note the exception for the ability in order to have it work on everyone who uses it.
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Notes
Skipped past painting rules argument, because those are a meta-argument of the argument we're having, while I could reply to it I feel it isn't providing any help on either side.
Look, This whole thing can be boiled down to "Functions as X". Functions as X does not mean it is X Especially when its been classified as Y. All it means is that you are looking at the spell descriptor text for the outcome of any given effect. If "Functions as X" makes an ability or otherwise turn into a spell for the sake of rules, then we have a whole load of other issues when we get to Alchemical items.
Smoke Sticks, which "treat the effect like fog cloud" are now suddenly susceptible to Antimagic Fields and "Dispel Magic".
Powered Moly, is now the actual Spell "Dispel Magic" when sprinkled on an enchanted item or creature.
Not only that, but now we have non-magical diseases and mundane poisons that should be counted as spells because their descriptors include lines such as "suffers the same effects as from a feeblemind spell" Intelligence Poison, "Uncontrollable laughter (as per hideous laughter)"JackalRoot Essence, and "An affected creature is treated as if under the effects of a confusion spell"Insanity Pill. If "Functions as X" means that for all intents and purposes they are in fact that spell, then for these specific instances we should be able to apply spell resistance, Reg. spell saves, The poison effects themselves should be negated by Antimagic Fields etc etc etc. There's certainly no ruling saying that we can't apply these to these effects. Its simple common sense that we shouldn't. Functions as X does not mean it is. I have already given you a very specific example as to how you can get the desired end goal of WildShape by only using the definition of Form, and the Spell descriptor text of Beast Shape.
I Honestly have to ask your thoughts on how wild shape would work if the ability as a whole was listed as such, my changes are italicized and bolded:
WildShape(Su)
At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. With this ability, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent.
Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.
The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
A druid can use this ability an additional time per day at 6th level and every two levels thereafter, for a total of eight times at 18th level. At 20th level, a druid can use wild shape at will. As a druid gains in levels, this ability allows the druid to take on the form of larger and smaller animals, elementals, and plants. Each form expends one daily usage of this ability, regardless of the form taken.
At 6th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Large or Tiny animal or a Small elemental. When taking the form of an animal, a druid’s wild shape now functions as follows:
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 60 feet, fly 60 feet (good maneuverability), swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, grab, pounce, and trip.
Tiny animal: If the form you take is that of a Tiny animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a -2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Large animal: If the form you take is that of a Large animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a -2 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus.
When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape functions as follows:
You can assume the form of a Small air elemental, Small earth elemental, Small fire elemental, or Small water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. Elemental abilities based on size, such as burn, vortex, and whirlwind, use the size of the elemental you transform into to determine their effect.
Air elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small air elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus. You also gain fly 60 feet (perfect), darkvision 60 feet, and the ability to create a whirlwind.
Earth elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small earth elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain darkvision 60 feet and the ability to earth glide.
Fire elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small fire elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus. You gain darkvision 60 feet, resist fire 20, vulnerability to cold, and the burn ability.
Water elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small water elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Constitution and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, the ability to create a vortex, and the ability to breathe water.
At 8th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge or Diminutive animal, a Medium elemental, or a Small or Medium plant creature. When taking the form of animals, a druid’s wild shape now functions as follows:
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet, blindsense 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, constrict, ferocity, grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web.
Diminutive animal: If the form you take is that of a Diminutive animal, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a -4 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Huge animal: If the form you take is that of a Huge animal, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Strength, a -4 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +6 natural armor bonus.
When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as follows:
The abilities you gain depend upon the elemental.
Air elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small air elemental, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus. You also gain fly 60 feet (perfect), darkvision 60 feet, and the ability to create a whirlwind.
Earth elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small earth elemental, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength and a +5 natural armor bonus. You also gain darkvision 60 feet and the ability to earth glide.
Fire elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small fire elemental, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus. You gain darkvision 60 feet, resist fire 20, vulnerability to cold, and the burn ability.
Water elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small water elemental, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Constitution and a +5 natural armor bonus. You also gain swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, the ability to create a vortex, and the ability to breathe water.
When taking the form of a plant creature, the druid’s wild shape functions as follows:
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, constrict, grab, and poison. If the form you assume does not possess the ability to move, your speed is reduced to 5 feet and you lose all other forms of movement. If the creature has vulnerability to an element, you gain that vulnerability.
Small plant: If the form you take is that of a Small plant, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Constitution and a +2 natural armor bonus.
Medium plant: If the form you take is that of a Medium plant, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength, a +2 enhancement bonus to your Constitution, and a +2 natural armor bonus.
At 10th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Large elemental or a Large plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as follows:
The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form.
Air elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small air elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength, +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain fly 60 feet (perfect), darkvision 60 feet, and the ability to create a whirlwind.
Earth elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small earth elemental, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Strength, a -2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +2 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus. You also gain darkvision 60 feet and the ability to earth glide.
Fire elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small fire elemental, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a +2 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You gain darkvision 60 feet, resist fire 20, vulnerability to cold, and the burn ability.
Water elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small water elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength, a -2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +6 size bonus to your Constitution and a +5 natural armor bonus. You also gain swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, the ability to create a vortex, and the ability to breathe water.
When taking the form of a plant, the druid’s wild shape now functions as follows:
If the creature has immunity or resistance to any elements, you gain energy resistance 20 to those elements. If the creature has vulnerabilty to an element, you gain that vulnerabilty.
Large plant: If the form you take is that of a Large plant, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a +2 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus.
At 12th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge elemental or a Huge plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as follows:
The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form and gain DR 5/—.
Air elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small air elemental, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, +6 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +6 natural armor bonus. You also gain fly 120 feet (perfect), darkvision 60 feet, and the ability to create a whirlwind.
Earth elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small earth elemental, you gain a +8 size bonus to your Strength, a -2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus. You also gain darkvision 60 feet and the ability to earth glide.
Fire elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small fire elemental, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You gain darkvision 60 feet, resist fire 20, vulnerability to cold, and the burn ability.
Water elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small water elemental, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a -2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +8 size bonus to your Constitution and a +6 natural armor bonus. You also gain swim 120 feet, darkvision 60 feet, the ability to create a vortex, and the ability to breathe water.
When taking the form of a plant, the druid’s wild shape now functions as follows:
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: Damage Reduction, regeneration 5, and trample.
Huge plant: If the form you take is that of a Huge plant, you gain a +8 size bonus to your Strength, a -2 penalty to your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.
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Literally all I have done here is copy and paste the Spell Descriptors in where the actual Spell was referenced. Makes for a helluva wall text doesn't it? probably why they just referenced the spell, not meaning to have it act like one.
Interesting, smokesticks, "treat the effect as a fog cloud spell", never noticed that before, but yeah you're able to dispel them, because the effect is treated as a spell (not the effects of the spell), it is just poor editing (as per usual paizo). Powdered moly would be be subject to the same restrictions as dispel magic as well (aka does not work in an AMF).
"Functions as" or "as x" is very different from "the same effects as" or "the effects of". If it "functions as" something it's subject to the same restrictions. If it's the "same effects as" something the target is affected as if the target had been successfully affected by that referenced thing. So if giant form said "The adaptive shifter increases in size, as per the effects of enlarge person.", it would work (but only for forms of the same size, per the FAQ).
Your example is faulty, and ignores the own rules that you laid down for forms (ability scores in particular), just so you could conveniently get your desired outcome.
I'll give you a far less convoluted example of a way to get to the intended end, we simply treat wild shape as a polymorph spell. Oh look, we gain all the intended things.
I Honestly have to ask your thoughts on how wild shape would work if the ability as a whole was listed as such, my changes are italicized and bolded:
--Snipped wall--
Would suck to not gain natural attacks, or if they were gained to have your ability scores changed to that of the creatures (with the bonus from wild shape tacked on). Effectively, either it has no attacks, or acts as a 3.5 druid.
Jesus Christ dude. Take an English course and perhaps more importantly a logic course. "This ability functions like the beast shape I spell" word for word what is pulled for wildshape from the druid class listing. Lets break it down shall we? We have the Subject being defined "This Ability". Ok what is it doing? "functions like". Right there Red flags should be going up all over the place. LIKE. Lets look at the definition of "like" in a dictionary:
like1
/līk/
preposition
1.
having the same characteristics or qualities as; similar to.
"they were like brothers"
2.
used to draw attention to the nature of an action or event.
"I apologize for coming over unannounced like this"
conjunctionINFORMAL
1.
in the same way that; as.
"people who change countries like they change clothes"
2.
as though; as if.
"I felt like I'd been kicked by a camel"
Huh... He wasn't actually kicked by a camel, but imaginatively it felt the same. Just how WildShape, OR ANY OTHER EFFECT FOR THAT MATTER, doesn't magically become something because it functions like or as or as per. In fact all of these words, when you look them up dictate that something is similar to something else. but they aren't exactly. CONTINUING ON, What is it functioning like? "The Beast Shape I Spell" Great so, we have something that is specifically not a spell, being defined by a spell. Lets go back to the brothers example. Just because they were like brothers didn't mean they actually were. they didn't suddenly share the same DNA because they were like brothers. You can act like brothers without receiving equal share of a dying fathers will. You can act like brothers without being acknowledged as such. Hell, one brother could marry the other's sister without it being incest. Except then, and only then, they actually would be brothers to an extent. Functioning as or functioning like or even as per, does. not. mean. it. is. the. same.
Honestly, learn to string together evidence from multiple posts. I've already given ample proof as to how WildShape would work just fine as not defined by polymorph rules, couple that with the previous statement about WildShape expanded and you actually get a very clear idea of how it would work.
And furthermore, lets say that you're right in the functionality of Wild shape. It has to abide by The polymorph rules as a polymorph effect. By no means, based on the evidence I posted, Is "Giant form" now a spell. It certainly functions like it and is even beholden to every bit of text stated in Enlarge person, But it is still not a spell, Therefore it would not be affected by anything in the polymorph ruleset. In fact the only thing that you could possibly attribute it to not working to is the 3rd to last line that states "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." But even this is not concrete. Why? because Per Wildshape, and thus Beastshape, you are not increasing your size. You are gaining a new form that happens to have a size differential. Even with how its written, you are at the bare minimum allowed to shift into a form that is medium to tiny and still use Giant Form. If you are a Large Creature, then you can go from Large to tiny and still use Giant form. That is at a minimum. With how the poorly the rules are written with defining form, I do not believe that is the case at all. but until they publish Errata for this mess it Ultimately is up to each DM to determine what is right per their campaign and their players.
Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).
Now I know this is a shocker, but wild shape changing your size is a size changing effect, because it changes your actual size.
So that limits us to exactly one case you may have an argument for. A wild shape into exactly the same size, and giant form.
Quote:
I've already given ample proof as to how WildShape would work just fine as not defined by polymorph rules, couple that with the previous statement about WildShape expanded and you actually get a very clear idea of how it would work.
If you ignore all evidence of your points being false or invalid, I suppose you have.
Now since you want to use the actual definition of "like" then, let's see what we can do with it. I know, we can use beast shape to assume the form of a small animal and get +8 dex and +1 natural armor, that's "like" beast shape I. Or maybe I could assume the form of a medium animal and gain +2 str, +2 con, and +2 nat armor, that's also "like" what beast shape I would grant. As is assuming the form of a medium animal and gain +2 str, +2 nat armor, and no natural attacks. Those all function "like" beast shape I.
In fact let's look at some more examples of "functions like". Summon Monster 2-9-- they "function like" summon monster 1, but I guess since they don't list a cast time I can assume it's a cast time of a standard action for them, since they just "function like", and aren't that spell. Beast Shape 2-5-- They each "function as" the previous version, but I guess that doesn't mean anything, so I guess they have a range of target creature now, since they don't list one. I could go on, but I think my point is made.
Instead the more reasonable and implied thing is to assume that it functions "exactly like" beast shape I. This is "exactly like" as in " button 4 functions exactly like button 1", ie they both do the same thing. If wild shape, "functions exactly like" beast shape x, then the polymorph spell rules apply to it.
Now let's look at giant form.
Quote:
The adaptive shifter increases in size, as per enlarge person.
Hmm, "as per", let's see the meaning of it.
Quote:
as per
Meaning: in accordance with
Hmmm, so it should say,
Quote:
The adaptive shifter increases in size, in accordance with enlarge person.
Alright, let's see how enlarge person works with polymorph spells.
Quote:
Spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Oh that's right, it doesn't. Which by extension means giant form doesnt work with wild shape.
The adaptive shifter increases in size, in accordance with enlarge person.
Alright, let's see how enlarge person works with polymorph spells.
Quote:
Spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Oh that's right, it doesn't. Which by extension means giant form doesnt work with wild shape.
This is faulty. As Per is indeed "in accordance to" which in turn is "in a way that agrees with or follows (something, such as a rule or request)" Giant Form Is operating Fully in regards to rules of Enlarge Person. But Giant Form in and of itself is not a spell. Enlarge Person is a Spell. The Polymorph Rules are putting a limitation on Spells. Giant Form following the rules of Enlarge Person does not make it a spell. This is the argument that i was making with The mundane Items having spell descriptors. They're still mundane non-magical items. Just because they are described by a spell does not mean they gain spell qualities. This is like saying "oh everything that burns is fire. Fire is always capable of being put out by water." Do you have any Idea how erroneous that statement is??? Water is used as an extinguishing agent on exactly one out of the six different types of fires.
You grouping Supernatural, Spell-Like, mundane items, mundane poisons, mundane disease into a spell category simply because they reference a spell on how they work instead of the spell descriptor text is no different than throwing water on a grease or electrical fire hoping it will go out.
Lets look at this with your Button example. Button 1 does indeed function as Button 4. However Button 4 is special because its made of metal, where as Button 1 is made of plastic. The panel in which the buttons are wired is faulty and has a constant high voltage charge running through it. Both buttons do the same work, but when you push button 4, you're going to get electrocuted because metal is conductive. Huh. Button 1 working like button 4 doesn't seem to make it conductive. WEIRD.
Lets look at this with your Button example. Button 1 does indeed function as Button 4. However Button 4 is special because its made of metal, where as Button 1 is made of plastic. The panel in which the buttons are wired is faulty and has a constant high voltage charge running through it. Both buttons do the same work, but when you push button 4, you're going to get electrocuted because metal is conductive. Huh. Button 1 working like button 4 doesn't seem to make it conductive. WEIRD.
It's almost like one button shocking you while the other does not, means that they don't function "exactly like" each other. Weird.
Quote:
This is faulty. As Per is indeed "in accordance to" which in turn is "in a way that agrees with or follows (something, such as a rule or request)" Giant Form Is operating Fully in regards to rules of Enlarge Person.
It's almost like following the same rules as enlarge person makes it follow the same rules enlarge person would have to follow for the situation it's in.
Quote:
You grouping Supernatural, Spell-Like, mundane items, mundane poisons, mundane disease into a spell category simply because they reference a spell on how they work instead of the spell descriptor text is no different than throwing water on a grease or electrical fire hoping it will go out.
No, it's like saying that a fire started using pine wood and one started with birch wood are 2 different types of fires, when they're both able to be disposed of in the same manner. Referencing a spell (wood fire) vs the spell's effect (metal fire) are different types of fires.
It's almost like one button shocking you while the other does not, means that they don't function "exactly like" each other. Weird.
No. they are functioning(working) exactly the same. Its a matter of qualities specific to the buttons that you are getting caught up on. Button 1 is plastic, a supernatural ability if you will. Button 4 is metal, a spell if you will. The electrical charge is the given ruleset.
willuwontu wrote:
No, it's like saying that a fire started using pine wood and one started with birch wood are 2 different types of fires, when they're both able to be disposed of in the same manner. Referencing a spell (wood fire) vs the spell's effect (metal fire) are different types of fires.
This again goes back to qualities that are specific to the items in question. a spell and a spells effect are not wood fire and a metal fire. A spell is a wood fire. combustion and heat is the spell effect. That whole cause and effect thing... wood fires don't produce metal fires. Smoke sticks are a Grease fire, it has the same exact effect (combustion and heat) as a wood fire. but it is something else entirely and if you treat it as a wood fire you end up making it worse. A Supernatural Ability is a Gas Fire, it has the same exact effect as a wood fire, that is combustion and heat, but it is not a wood fire. A mundane disease is a liquid fire, it has the same exact effect as a wood fire, combustion and heat, but it is not a wood fire.
No. they are functioning(working) exactly the same. Its a matter of qualities specific to the buttons that you are getting caught up on. Button 1 is plastic, a supernatural ability if you will. Button 4 is metal, a spell if you will. The electrical charge is the given ruleset.
No, they're different. A button that puts a square on the screen, is different from a button that puts a square on the screen and shocks you. Something something rectangles and squares. I'll give you that the ruleset is the frame they're in, however if they function the same, they both have the same output in the same frame.
Quote:
This again goes back to qualities that are specific to the items in question. a spell and a spells effect are not wood fire and a metal fire.
Correct, a spell's effect is a byproduct of the spell. Not another ability coming into play.
Quote:
A spell is a wood fire. combustion and heat is the spell effect. That whole cause and effect thing... wood fires don't produce metal fires.
Correct, wood fires don't produce metal fires, but they both combust (different reactions though) and produce heat. The route there is very different though. Referencing just the effect is very different from referencing the whole thing.
Quote:
Smoke sticks are a Grease fire, it has the same exact effect (combustion and heat) as a wood fire. but it is something else entirely
And smokestick says to treat it as a wood fire, not as a grease fire.
Quote:
A Supernatural Ability is a Gas Fire, it has the same exact effect as a wood fire, that is combustion and heat, but it is not a wood fire. A mundane disease is a liquid fire, it has the same exact effect as a wood fire, combustion and heat, but it is not a wood fire.
And if you ignite a gas or liquid fire with a wood fire, before the ignition of those fires, you can take care of the wood fire in the way a wood fire. Likewise if your supernatural ability acts as a spell, its subject to those same restrictions, as I've demonstrated before.
