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Having a target make a saves vs. having the caster make an attack roll makes magic significantly less effective. Here are some reasons.
- #1 Math – Detailed below but saves have a 10% less chance to hit and 5% less chance to crit, both do to ties going to the roller. This difference is compounded when you consider most spells cost 2 actions.
- #2 Buffs – There are a number of spells, powers, items that provide a bonus to attack rolls but not spell DCs. Why? Both are ways of “attacking” an opponent. Inspire Courage, for example, is an interesting buff in this regard. It adds +1 attack and +1 damage to attack rolls but only +1 damage to spells that call for a save.
- #3 Items – Not directly related but spells get no love from items. While a martial character can get a boost to attack (and damage) from finely crafted or magical weapons there is no such items for casters. A martial character’s to hit chance will increase 20-25% over the course of a career due to items (+4 or +5 weapon.) A caster’s spell roll will never increase due to items.
So let’s look at some numbers. Say we have two characters. We’ll call them Martial and Caster.
Martial has a +5 bonus to his melee attacks. Caster has a +5 bonus to his spell rolls.
They are both making an attack against the same target who has a 15 AC and a +5 Reflex save (Goblin Commando as an example.)
Martial rolls to hit and needs to roll a 10+ to hit or 55% chance of success. 5% chance of crit.
Caster has the target roll a Reflex save vs. his Spell DC which is 15 (10 + spell roll.) Target needs a 10+ to succeed. Caster has a 45% chance to hit. 5% chance of crit.
Now let’s level up to level 4. Martial and Caster are both at +8 and attacking the same target as before.
Martial rolls to hit and needs to roll a 7+ to hit or 70% chance of success. 20% chance of crit.
Caster has the target roll a Reflex save vs. his Spell DC which is 18 (10 + spell roll.) Target needs a 13+ to succeed. Caster has a 60% chance to hit. 15% chance of crit.
As the game progresses and we factor in buffs that affect attack rolls and item bonuses to hit, Martial’s chance to hit will significantly outpace Caster over the course of the game.
Solutions to this are many. You could make spells powerful enough that they are still worth the lower chance to hit (I’m not convinced that’s the case given what I’ve seen playtesting through level 4 but am willing to wait and see.) Already many spells do a partial effect on a successful (not critical success) save. This is good. But I seriously feel some consideration should be made as to whether buffs should effect Spell Rolls (and thus Spell DCs) or if saves should reverse and become attacks made by the caster against the target.
Some thoughts I’ve been having about the system. Not a math genius but I think my basics are right. Constructive comments appreciated.
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Two points to consider for this discussion:
1. Many spells have an effect even on a failure condition
Example:
+5 attack vs AC 15
45% (1-9) Miss no damage
50% (10-19) Hit normal damage
5% (20) crit double damage
+5 Reflex vs DC 15
5% crit fail (1) double damage
40% fail (2-9) normal damage
50% success (10-19) half damage
5% crit success (20) no damage
This design principle holds true for a lot of spells though not cantrips
2: In theory a caster could target a lower save that same goblin commando only has a +3 will save. Though that is a less reliable option.
I think you're confusing this thread with the one you linked CommanderCoyler. OP was about item bonuses to attack rolls and not to save DCs making static defenses out of saves was the other thread and your right it doesn't change the math in this case at all.
For half damage on melee attacks I think that is okay though it would probably end up making the game a lot more deadly since the PCs tend to get attacked a lot over the course of the day and if there is basically constant chip damage they will end up dead. Maybe if it was combined with a change to a wounds/vigor system.
Agreed, spells imply a high investment in slots and action economy that makes them a lot more demoralizing to "miss" compared to attack rolls which you can just spam forever. The super weak effect on save is just a consolation prize and I doubt spells are balanced around pretty much always getting that result.
I think you're confusing this thread with the one you linked CommanderCoyler. OP was about item bonuses to attack rolls and not to save DCs making static defenses out of saves was the other thread and your right it doesn't change the math in this case at all.
For half damage on melee attacks I think that is okay though it would probably end up making the game a lot more deadly since the PCs tend to get attacked a lot over the course of the day and if there is basically constant chip damage they will end up dead. Maybe if it was combined with a change to a wounds/vigor system.
Half damage on melee attack misses would incentivize rolling the third attack at -10 for half damage?
I suppose 50% damage/success on a successful save is better than nothing but it took 2 actions (generally) to cast the spell. A martial character can take two swings in that time, one at full to hit, the other at -25% to hit. Someone better at math than me can figure average damage there but maybe that math should influence how much partial damage/success a successful save should do.
None the less as characters level and martial character's gain better item bonuses and casters can buff the party with better bonuses to hit, save DCs fall way behind the curve means less and less chance for those critical fails. Does partial damage/success make up for this in the current iteration? My gut says no but I'll be watching play as we go in to level 7 next week.
Or, they could do half damage on misses, and use an easily recovered stamina system like Starfinder. That would work pretty great.
So to add to this conversation... the new version of frightened as of Update 1.2.
You’re gripped by fear and struggle to control your nerves. The frightened condition always includes a value. You take a conditional penalty equal to this value to your checks, including your DCs (such as your AC or Class DC). Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns, the value of your frightened condition decreases by 1.
Bold emphasis mine.
So while there is next to no way to raise you Spell DC it can be lowered by effects that lower checks???
Or can this be read to say your DCs are to be treated as checks and thus Inspiring Courage would increase you Spell DC?
Saving throws aren't uniform in height: my party for "In Pale Mountain's Shadow" ran into monsters with a +2 to Reflex trying to save against a DC 18 Reflex spell. The ACs of monsters seem much more uniform and scalable with level than saving throws, which can vary quite differently between Fort, Ref, and Will.
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So to add to this conversation... the new version of frightened as of Update 1.2.
You’re gripped by fear and struggle to control your nerves. The frightened condition always includes a value. You take a conditional penalty equal to this value to your checks, including your DCs (such as your AC or Class DC). Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns, the value of your frightened condition decreases by 1.Bold emphasis mine.
So while there is next to no way to raise you Spell DC it can be lowered by effects that lower checks???
Or can this be read to say your DCs are to be treated as checks and thus Inspiring Courage would increase you Spell DC?
But frightened condition makes you run for your life right? Soo since
you wont be casting spells that requires a saving throw that
shouldnt matter. Right?
So to add to this conversation... the new version of frightened as of Update 1.2.
You’re gripped by fear and struggle to control your nerves. The frightened condition always includes a value. You take a conditional penalty equal to this value to your checks, including your DCs (such as your AC or Class DC). Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns, the value of your frightened condition decreases by 1.Bold emphasis mine.
So while there is next to no way to raise you Spell DC it can be lowered by effects that lower checks???
Or can this be read to say your DCs are to be treated as checks and thus Inspiring Courage would increase you Spell DC?
But frightened condition makes you run for your life right? Soo since
you wont be casting spells that requires a saving throw that
shouldnt matter. Right?
Not really. Currently, frightened condition does not automatically send you fleeing, it is just a debuff.
Mark Seifter said they tried half damage on misses and it lead to the game slowing down as people keep forgetting they did half damage on a miss.That is exactly what happened in the first 5th Ed playtest packet, the fighter had a feature called Reaper, where you deal your ability score (Str 16, so +3, in this case) modifier damage on a miss. Well, someone would miss a kobold, the DM would narrate and move on, and then someone would suddenly remember that the fighter actually dealt 3 damage, thus killing the kobold.
As for attacks vs. saves, just use the Saving Throws as Defences variant from the 3rd Ed UA. 11 + saving throw bonus = Defence score.
I had this exact problem, but it was instead because everybody forgot the Cleric's Bless (or Guidance, I don't remember which spell it was).
Also, there's a 12th level Fighter Feat (Brutal Finish) that does relatively the same thing. Better pay attention to it.
Mark Seifter said they tried half damage on misses and it lead to the game slowing down as people keep forgetting they did half damage on a miss.That is exactly what happened in the first 5th Ed playtest packet, the fighter had a feature called Reaper, where you deal your ability score (Str 16, so +3, in this case) modifier damage on a miss. Well, someone would miss a kobold, the DM would narrate and move on, and then someone would suddenly remember that the fighter actually dealt 3 damage, thus killing the kobold.
I think the problem might have been that the half damage on a miss thing was too rare for people to remember it easily. D&D 4E had a similar system in more widespread use, and I do not recall such problems occurring in that game.
So to add to this conversation... the new version of frightened as of Update 1.2.
You’re gripped by fear and struggle to control your nerves. The frightened condition always includes a value. You take a conditional penalty equal to this value to your checks, including your DCs (such as your AC or Class DC). Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns, the value of your frightened condition decreases by 1.Bold emphasis mine.
So while there is next to no way to raise you Spell DC it can be lowered by effects that lower checks???
Or can this be read to say your DCs are to be treated as checks and thus Inspiring Courage would increase you Spell DC?
So further more...
In twitch stream/you tube "Deconstructing Doomsday Dawn (Paizo Friday #16) Logan Bonner" says in reference to Frighten affecting DCs... [time 17:40] "And that's true for any of the conditions that work like that if something says it applies to checks it gonna to apply to DCs to."
So this quote is prefaced with "And that's true for and conditions..." but why would a penalty to checks from a condition be applied to DCs and not a penalty from say a spell.
Bane provides a -1 conditional penalty to attack rolls. Attack rolls are a kind of check (see checks p.290). If an attack roll is a check and penalties to checks (at least from conditions) are applied to DCs does that mean a caster under a bane has his save DC reduced by 1? How about a caster under the effect of a bless?
Would love clarification so I can playtest this correctly.