Does anyone know when Paizo is looking to officially release P2e?
I heard say next August, but I hope it isn't that long of a wait. My concern is the year long limbo.
As a long time and avid Pathfinder player, there are a lot of things I like about P2e but there are a lot of things my players are commenting on - generally relating to the lack of class/skill/feat diversity.
The announcement of P2e casts a general 'going back' pall on 1st edition, and I have some wondering if we should not switch to D&D altogether. Judging by some of the forums I've been watching, we are not the only ones.
Pathfinder built on the WoTC/4e debacle, and I would hate to see that trend reversed. I have to think that this makes things somewhat risky for Paizo, especially if players do not feel there is a substantive 'wow' in the new edition. I largely think there is - with a few tweaks!
:)
Personally, if the release date for P2e is actually August of 2019, I think Paizo should look to cut that in half.
They will release 2nd edition at GenCon 2019, and not a moment sooner.
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God no don't rush it, it's in a terrible state
They might release more content for 2E before release. I know they want to do this for the other class dedications.
They don't know how much changes are needed during Playtest, so they can't give an offical date. They said they'll push it back further if they game is still a janky mess at planned release time.
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God no don't rush it, it's in a terrible state
They might release more content for 2E before release. I know they want to do this for the other class dedications.
They don't know how much changes are needed during Playtest, so they can't give an offical date. They said they'll push it back further if they game is still a janky mess at planned release time.
Well, I agree that it shouldn't be rushed. But I'm guessing proximity to 'janky mess' is in the eyes of the beholder. The breadth of my experience isn't monstrous, but I've been playing the game since AD&D and I've come to appreciate a lot of the mechanics changes made to P2e.
As I said, generally our group is content with the ruleset - which a few changes here and there - and are mainly concerned with content at this point.
That is all to say that I hope they DO release more content. And maybe even rule-revisions as they consider them.
God no don't rush it, it's in a terrible state
They might release more content for 2E before release. I know they want to do this for the other class dedications.
They don't know how much changes are needed during Playtest, so they can't give an offical date. They said they'll push it back further if they game is still a janky mess at planned release time.
Provide a link to what I bolded or it didn't happen.
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Yeah, if anything that is TOO SOON to release since it means they start writing the final version in just a couple of months. The playtest is gonna end up being pretty short and we are unlikely to see "round 2"/
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Yeah, if anything that is TOO SOON to release since it means they start writing the final version in just a couple of months. The playtest is gonna end up being pretty short and we are unlikely to see "round 2"/
I honestly hope we do get a round two, because I want to see if any of the changes they implement with round two are solid via playtesting as well.
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Yeah! Get rid of all those gognards that have been supporting games over the years with money and effort and sweat! Don't listen to them regardless if they are right or wrong!
Just hope that whoever is left after the grognards (for whatever that term means today) are left behind can support the game to levels that it can continue.
Yeah! Get rid of all those gognards that have been supporting games over the years with money and effort and sweat! Don't listen to them regardless if they are right or wrong!
Just hope that whoever is left after the grognards (for whatever that term means today) are left behind can support the game to levels that it can continue.
If grognards is all they needed, they wouldnt be making a new edition. If you are talking about WoTC as that other company, they are far and away the current market leader.
If Paizo wants to reclaim market share, pleasing grognards is, at most, a tertiary concern.
I think I agree.
I admit to not having my head buried in the forums much, but it seems a lot of the comments I have seen can be summed up as 'why change anything', with very few targeting how to make the P2e product better.
I hope Paizo is able parse through all of that and make the tweaks that make sense and get on with it.
A one year long wait seems overlong in a day and age when brand loyalty seems on the wane and people's attention gets grabbed by the first shiny object that comes their way.
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Grognards, or older players if you prefer, isn't all they need. But it isn't wise to alienate an entire percentage -- however small or large -- by basically saying "we don't care about you" and/or "You are all just whining."
Paizo has a pretty decent market share. 5E is the new shiny on the market so of course it go people's attention, and when the newer shiny comes out people will flit over to that as well.
Throwing the product out before it is ready isn't going to win the day and it certainly isn't going to win anyone over.
You don't eat food that isn't done yet. You don't put out a product that isn't complete and expect everyone to love you for it.
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If they would release this in January, I would buy it immediately.
I just hope tgey release it soon before they start listening to all the whining grognards.
Some people here may be overly critical of 2nd edition.
But it's because they want the game to succeed!
They want a strong base on which to build content for the next 10 years, not half-baked rules that will only make the game playable after a dozen erratas or so have been thrown out.
Most of these grognards (which I find a rather insulting term to use in a polite discussion but anyway) are just really invested in the playtest and want to make sure that every potential issue that would ruin enjoyment in the long term has been eliminated before the day of official release.
Can you really blame them for that?
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Paizo has a pretty decent market share.
Got any data on that? Apart from the Icv2, which shows Pathfinder third after 5e and Starfinder.
5E is the new shiny on the market so of course it go people's attention, and when the newer shiny comes out people will flit over to that as well.
5e came 4 years ago. That's not "new shiny" any more.
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If they would release this in January, I would buy it immediately.
I just hope tgey release it soon before they start listening to all the whining grognards.
Some people here may be overly critical of 2nd edition.
But it's because they want the game to succeed!
They want a strong base on which to build content for the next 10 years, not half-baked rules that will only make the game playable after a dozen erratas or so have been thrown out.
Most of these grognards (which I find a rather insulting term to use in a polite discussion but anyway) are just really invested in the playtest and want to make sure that every potential issue that would ruin enjoyment in the long term has been eliminated before the day of official release.
Can you really blame them for that?
Yes.
Paizo has a pretty decent market share.
Got any data on that? Apart from the Icv2, which shows Pathfinder third after 5e and Starfinder.
5e came 4 years ago. That's not "new shiny" any more.
5E is the new shiny on the market so of course it go people's attention, and when the newer shiny comes out people will flit over to that as well.
No, I didn't go look up data for it. Going off what I see in stores .. although that would indicate no one plays RPGs and only plays Magic and Warhammer .. as well as the conversations here. Still, third seems better than most.
Newer and shinier than a 10 year old game then?
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Paizo has a pretty decent market share.
Got any data on that? Apart from the Icv2, which shows Pathfinder third after 5e and Starfinder.
5e came 4 years ago. That's not "new shiny" any more.
5E is the new shiny on the market so of course it go people's attention, and when the newer shiny comes out people will flit over to that as well.
No, I didn't go look up data for it. Going off what I see in stores .. although that would indicate no one plays RPGs and only plays Magic and Warhammer .. as well as the conversations here. Still, third seems better than most.
Newer and shinier than a 10 year old game then?
Well, given that PF is an extension of 3.5, which is an extension of 3.0 ... that would be 18 years :)
But the point is, 5e is hardly a "new kid on the block", yet it seems to kick PF squarely in the nuts, judging from tiny bits of evidence such as numbers of Roll20 games, amount of people watching Twitch streams or number of Amazon product reviews.
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Folks are missing a key point when they compare ICV2 or Amazon sales when looking at market share.
Paizo has direct sales from their website, as well as subscriptions.
Hasbro/Wizkids do not sell books from their sites, instead direct folks to local stores or online retailers like Amazon.
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5E has significant market share. As a DM, its hard for me to find PLAYERS who want to play anything except 5E.
Sorry, wanting to turn back the clock to PF1 by rolling back changes will not get folks to move away from 5E.
I have been DMing this playtest for two online groups so far. Both were filled with curious 5E players. They liked it quite a bit. They liked the tactical combat and some of the crunchier bits. The things they didnt like were some of the vestigal PF1 bits (strict vancian casting, touch ac, etc).
Paizo can win here. But it will need to turn to new players and not cater to the PF1 "old guard" that is afraid of change.
By all means, cater to the new players. That said, from what I can tell of the "old guard" the last thing they are afraid of is change.
Now I can only speak for myself, but in 41 years of gaming I changed games and systems quite a bit. I've done my own changes and house rules, I've played systems with other systems bolted on and so on.
These older players aren't afraid of change .. they are afraid of the wrong change, of change for the sake of change, and of change that doesn't actually fix what it is supposed to fix.
It isn't turning back the clock. It's just not rushing forward blindly in the hopes of competing with another company.
@Gorbacz: So I hear. Down here, people are rarely all that excited about either D&D or PF for the most part. If you open a pack of Magic cards, however, you'll be killed by a stampede.
In all fairness, 5e has been around since 2014. It’s not all that new or shiny anymore and is only getting bigger. If it was just the “shine” that first attracted, then something else made people stay.Grognards, or older players if you prefer, isn't all they need. But it isn't wise to alienate an entire percentage -- however small or large -- by basically saying "we don't care about you" and/or "You are all just whining."
Paizo has a pretty decent market share. 5E is the new shiny on the market so of course it go people's attention, and when the newer shiny comes out people will flit over to that as well.
Throwing the product out before it is ready isn't going to win the day and it certainly isn't going to win anyone over.
You don't eat food that isn't done yet. You don't put out a product that isn't complete and expect everyone to love you for it.
This is true. They've found a feel that people seem to be responding to. Whether that is because they are not satisfied with their current game system or that 5E hearkens back to an earlier time or whatever, they are keeping some of those players that they've brought in.
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Yes.If they would release this in January, I would buy it immediately.
I just hope tgey release it soon before they start listening to all the whining grognards.
Some people here may be overly critical of 2nd edition.
But it's because they want the game to succeed!
They want a strong base on which to build content for the next 10 years, not half-baked rules that will only make the game playable after a dozen erratas or so have been thrown out.
Most of these grognards (which I find a rather insulting term to use in a polite discussion but anyway) are just really invested in the playtest and want to make sure that every potential issue that would ruin enjoyment in the long term has been eliminated before the day of official release.
Can you really blame them for that?
So you would rather play a game with poorly implemented rules that potentially break immersion and hinder gameplay. Duly noted.
I'm not sure what you're doing posting on playtest forums then.
The whole point of playtesting is to talk about what doesn't work.
Offering an educated review of the final product and suggestions is what it's all about.
Obviously, Paizo staff wants the same thing or they would not be playtesting this, they'll be throwing it on the market since people will apparently buy it regardless of quality.
YMMV but I know when I pick up a tomato from the shelves in a store, I make sure that it's not rotten before paying for it.
If you like your rotten tomatoes, good for you.
You're probably the kind of person that is going to eat it and decide it's rotten and you'll switch to a potato next week.
But me, I'm going to stick with the tomato every week and I want it to be fresh and nice everytime I go and pick up one.
So I would rather make sure a person who doesn't care will not influence the manager and have him buy rotten tomatoes because they're cheaper and they get here faster when they don't get to eat it every week afterwards.
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Thats fairly specious logic. I like how you assume who cares and who doesnt and whats rotten and whats not, lol.
Ah well, grognards gotta grognard.
[sarcasm]Yeah, because blaming people for wanting to help make something better makes all the sense in the world.
And shows how invested you are yourself in making said product better, of course.[/sarcasm]| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes.Most of these grognards (which I find a rather insulting term to use in a polite discussion but anyway) are just really invested in the playtest and want to make sure that every potential issue that would ruin enjoyment in the long term has been eliminated before the day of official release.
Can you really blame them for that?
Is there some way to parse this that isn't rude? Or plain nasty?
I've held you and your posts in the highest regard for years here, but in the last few months your helpful/insightful-to-nasty ratio has taken a hit. It's one thing to want your voice heard. It's another to dismiss the voice of others.
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"Better"
Yes, better.
Notice I did not say in which way because everyone has a different opinion of what will make the game better.All of these opinions being voiced during playtest will ensure the game feels good to everybody at launch, no matter how they choose to define "good".
Won't happen if the forums go quiet for months though.
Yes.If they would release this in January, I would buy it immediately.
I just hope tgey release it soon before they start listening to all the whining grognards.
Some people here may be overly critical of 2nd edition.
But it's because they want the game to succeed!
They want a strong base on which to build content for the next 10 years, not half-baked rules that will only make the game playable after a dozen erratas or so have been thrown out.
Most of these grognards (which I find a rather insulting term to use in a polite discussion but anyway) are just really invested in the playtest and want to make sure that every potential issue that would ruin enjoyment in the long term has been eliminated before the day of official release.
Can you really blame them for that?
So you would rather play a game with poorly implemented rules that potentially break immersion and hinder gameplay. Duly noted.
I'm not sure what you're doing posting on playtest forums then.
The whole point of playtesting is to talk about what doesn't work.
Offering an educated review of the final product and suggestions is what it's all about.Obviously, Paizo staff wants the same thing or they would not be playtesting this, they'll be throwing it on the market since people will apparently buy it regardless of quality.
YMMV but I know when I pick up a tomato from the shelves in a store, I make sure that it's not rotten before paying for it.
If you like your rotten tomatoes, good for you.
You're probably the kind of person that is going to eat it and decide it's rotten and you'll switch to a potato next week.
But me, I'm going to stick with the tomato every week and I want it to be fresh and nice everytime I go and pick up one.So I would rather make sure a person who doesn't care will not influence the manager and have him buy rotten tomatoes because they're cheaper and they get here faster when they...
You are making some pretty big leaps here, dnoisette.
I am pretty no one who takes time to comment on these boards is interested in seeing the game fail. And no one is interested in seeing Paizo introduce a sub-standard product.
That said, the simplified set of rules as they are right now may need some tweaking, but it is mainly further expansion most people I speak to are interested in.
A lot of complaints I've caught have more to do with 'why is the Oracle gone', or what about archetypes, and all this stuff. Comparing content of P1e to P2e rather than the mechanics themselves. I said most here, not all. The mechanics themselves also need work, but even then it is a matter of expanding and fleshing out rather than revamping.
It doesn't take a year (more than a year when you consider people have been rating P2e since March 2018) to do that.
And in the business game, time is money.
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...Yes.If they would release this in January, I would buy it immediately.
I just hope tgey release it soon before they start listening to all the whining grognards.
Some people here may be overly critical of 2nd edition.
But it's because they want the game to succeed!
They want a strong base on which to build content for the next 10 years, not half-baked rules that will only make the game playable after a dozen erratas or so have been thrown out.
Most of these grognards (which I find a rather insulting term to use in a polite discussion but anyway) are just really invested in the playtest and want to make sure that every potential issue that would ruin enjoyment in the long term has been eliminated before the day of official release.
Can you really blame them for that?
So you would rather play a game with poorly implemented rules that potentially break immersion and hinder gameplay. Duly noted.
I'm not sure what you're doing posting on playtest forums then.
The whole point of playtesting is to talk about what doesn't work.
Offering an educated review of the final product and suggestions is what it's all about.Obviously, Paizo staff wants the same thing or they would not be playtesting this, they'll be throwing it on the market since people will apparently buy it regardless of quality.
YMMV but I know when I pick up a tomato from the shelves in a store, I make sure that it's not rotten before paying for it.
If you like your rotten tomatoes, good for you.
You're probably the kind of person that is going to eat it and decide it's rotten and you'll switch to a potato next week.
But me, I'm going to stick with the tomato every week and I want it to be fresh and nice everytime I go and pick up one.So I would rather make sure a person who doesn't care will not influence the manager and have him buy rotten tomatoes because they're cheaper and they
Haven't seen any of those complaints since they actual playtest rulebook came out. It's all about Math, Monsters, Healing, Spell Nerfs and Ancestries now. And they're pretty legit things that I hope get addressed, but I know some of them are not easy.
Perhaps it takes a year for Paizo to get the rules to where they want them to be as well as produce the lead in material for the change over. If I recall correctly, the current adventure path and maybe one after is supposed to do that.
There are a number of people who think the play test rules are great as they are now. As we've seen, however, there are still things being fixed and corrected by staff. They are still putting out PF1 material that has been on the schedule as well.
Unless they are going to scrap all that hard work to move up the time table I don't see the play test rules coming out as the official version ahead of schedule.
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So you would rather play a game with poorly implemented rules that potentially break immersion and hinder gameplay. Duly noted.
I'm not sure what you're doing posting on playtest forums then.
The whole point of playtesting is to talk about what doesn't work.
Offering an educated review of the final product and suggestions is what it's all about.Obviously, Paizo staff wants the same thing or they would not be playtesting this, they'll be throwing it on the market since people will apparently buy it regardless of quality.
YMMV but I know when I pick up a tomato from the shelves in a store, I make sure that it's not rotten before paying for it.
If you like your rotten tomatoes, good for you.
You're probably the kind of person that is going to eat it and decide it's rotten and you'll switch to a potato next week.
But me, I'm going to stick with the tomato every week and I want it to be fresh and nice everytime I go and pick up one.So I would rather make sure a person who doesn't care will not influence the manager and have him buy rotten tomatoes because they're cheaper and they get here faster when they don't get to eat it every week afterwards.
The whole point of playtesting is to PLAYTEST the ruleset, which is what I am doing with two groups, and to submit feedback in a way that is useful for whoever asked for the feedback in the first place, which is what I am doing as well. I try not to generate useless noise by stroking my ego via ranting about what I feel and what I think because, well, I'm no game designer, my skills at math at moderate at best and my level of emotional investment in the ruleset itself is far cry from what seems to be the norm here.
And yes, I blame the entitled grogrnards for being just that, big kids in shells of burly men who never grow up, refuse to accept change, have way inflated perception of their own skills at math/design, rant about how their experiences are universal, expect the game to allow them to play their winged pixie antipaladin/gunslinger out of the Core Rulebook and dismiss people who think otherwise as kids/MMO fans/Helicopter Parents/"not true gamers"/Paizo shills. This isn't "benevolent entitlement that leads to positive change", this is toxic investment which leads to gatekeeping, onetrueway-ism, blindness to facts and inability to reconsider your own position. Toxic fandom bingo.
The number of people who post empirically-informed critique is low. DeadManWalking is a shining star, just as are several others, but they're pretty much signal drowning in noise.
Worse, I have every reason to believe that a chunk of the recent forum traffic are people with an agenda against Paizo. They're not here to discuss the game, they're here to inflict maximum damage. No, magnuskn, calm down, it's not about you.
And I was, and always will be (unless permabanned) here to challenge that, just as I was ready to challenge people who thought that PF1 is a flaming wreck and Paizo will die at hands of 4e. Which it ultimately didn't, to many cheers of folks who today stand in exactly the same spot shouting that Paizo will, to their frequently poorly-hidden delight, crash and burn for "not listening to us, true fans".
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Worse, I have every reason to believe that a chunk of the recent forum traffic are people with an agenda against Paizo. They're not here to discuss the game, they're here to inflict maximum damage. No, magnuskn, calm down, it's not about you.
I wouldn't know why you'd think I would take that particular comment as directed at me, given how I actually am putting in a lot of my time trying to rescue the game from what I perceive to be a huge error. I might be wrong (because we are all humans), but I do what I do to help Paizo.
The problem I see is that your point of view and of people like DateLoreRPG is not any more informed than ours, but you guys are taking it up a notch and think you must "challenge" people who have a differing opinion than yours. In my eyes, that's arrogant. It's all fine and dandy to discuss things, but you in particular have gotten personally nasty right from the first day towards me (and you know what I'm talking about) in a way which could only be taken as deep personal animosity.
And I was, and always will be (unless permabanned) here to challenge that, just as I was ready to challenge people who thought that PF1 is a flaming wreck and Paizo will die at hands of 4e. Which it ultimately didn't, to many cheers of folks who today stand in exactly the same spot shouting that Paizo will, to their frequently poorly-hidden delight, crash and burn for "not listening to us, true fans".
Yeah, well. The problem is, to take your own words from a few weeks ago, you see yourself as a Type 3. While the many people you have personally attacked over the years clearly recognize yourself to be a Type 1.
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Well, the way *discussion* forums work, if you put out your opinion and expect it not to be challenged, you're at the wrong place. Blogs with comments turned off are where you can rant off and never face a direct confrontation. Surveys - heck, the very surveys Paizo provided - is how you can send your thoughts without having them confronted as well. As an added bonus, the chances somebody will read them are far higher.
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Well, the way *discussion* forums work, if you put out your opinion and expect it not to be challenged, you're at the wrong place. Blogs with comments turned off are where you can rant off and never face a direct confrontation. Surveys - heck, the very surveys Paizo provided - is how you can send your thoughts without having them confronted as well. As an added bonus, the chances somebody will read them are far higher.
If you think "challenging" means "having a different opinion", then yes, you are of course right. That's what discussion forums are for, after all.
However, posting crap like "I'll throw a party when you are gone from the forums" is not "challenging" anyone, it's just a personal insult, which you wouldn't expect from a person who is not already deeply personally invested in disliking you.
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The latest Twitch interview with Stephen hints that resonance might get overhauled/axed and some spell nerfs will be rolled back, so I'm pretty sure Paizo is taking feedback seriously.
This is backed by Bulmahn's comments at Saturday's 2e panel at Dragoncon (not about Resonance per-say), negative feelings about Ancestries, 4th iteration of the Dying rules, getting the Witch sooner rather than later (probably still not in the Core book), [REDACATED], etc
In all fairness, 5e has been around since 2014. It’s not all that new or shiny anymore and is only getting bigger. If it was just the “shine” that first attracted, then something else made people stay.
I'd be very surprised if there wasn't at least one person at Wizards already working on the next iteration.
Yeah, well. The problem is, to take your own words from a few weeks ago, you see yourself as a Type 3. While the many people you have personally attacked over the years clearly recognize yourself to be a Type 1.
Type what?
I'd be very surprised if there wasn't at least one person at Wizards already working on the next iteration.
One wonders what D&D 6th Edition will look like. ^^ And, yeah, of course someone is already working on it, they want to keep moving product and have corporate overlords to please as well.
Yeah, well. The problem is, to take your own words from a few weeks ago, you see yourself as a Type 3. While the many people you have personally attacked over the years clearly recognize yourself to be a Type 1.Type what?
Gorbacz knows what I'm talking about, that was the important thing, since the post was addressed at him. Sorry, but I don't want to move this entire conversation from "likely to be deleted" to "assured to be deleted".
Looks to be more of a 5.5; evolutionary, rather than evolutionary. They seem to be onto a winner, and the rules of a game do not need to change, drastically, if at all (especially if not called for), every X amount of years. Many games currently still have the same rules they've had for decades, centuries, millennia.
Yeah, that sounds about right. It would be vastly amusing, though, if they decided to radically change their design again.
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Wait, you can’t just say [Redacted] and not spoil what it is? Now I’m burning with curiosity. What did Jason Bulmahn say at Dragoncon?The latest Twitch interview with Stephen hints that resonance might get overhauled/axed and some spell nerfs will be rolled back, so I'm pretty sure Paizo is taking feedback seriously.This is backed by Bulmahn's comments at Saturday's 2e panel at Dragoncon (not about Resonance per-say), negative feelings about Ancestries, 4th iteration of the Dying rules, getting the Witch sooner rather than later (probably still not in the Core book), [REDACATED], etc