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I've read the pinned and grappled conditions several times, and the wording regarding what they can do is fairly close in both cases. I would think a character pinned can still attack if they can while grappled.
The point that it hinges on though seems to be the bound and limited actions. one thought is that it can only perform the actions listed after that, which then one wonders why mention that you can't move.
The other thought is that since you're "bound" you look to helpless, which has penalties that don't quite mesh and then you're left being able to coup de grace.
Any help you can shed on this would great. Or if you can point somewhere that has an official clarification on this. Everything I can find is in regards to grappled when it comes to official comments.
Edit removed my post because i may be wrong.
OK i was right, you can only try to escape unless your a caster. Then you can only cast spells without somatic and verbal components or try to escape.
The way I see it, if you can't move enough to cast spells with somatic components (moving your hands), then you can't move enough to make an attack.
Here is a link to a similar post several years ago. It regards making touch attacks from non-verbal spells (You can't make them).
Also, pinned overrides the grappled condition, and they don't stack. Grappled allows you to make attacks with a -2 penalty. Pinned does not offer a "more severe" penalty to attack rolls, and since pinned overrides grappled, I'd say that pinned does not allow you to make attacks.
Also, being pinned makes you bound, which makes you helpless. You cannot make attacks while helpless (nor bound, which is the whole point of binding someone), otherwise you wouldn't be considered helpless.
And just in case you aren't convinced, I will gladly hit the FAQ button for you.
is there some rationale behind your thoughts you can share?
The pinned verbiage says you can only do 2 things. Attempt to escape and take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell without verbal and somatic components. I would go on to say you can only use attack spells that also do not require a d20 roll. Such as fire ball or grease.
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it also says you can't move, why include such a phrase if the list is only of things you can do?
The doesn't stack, I've assumed is in regards to similar penalties. Denied dex is more severe then -4dex (regardless of the practical implication of ac on some cases)
If you're infact helpless, why bother mentioning the other things? and if you're helpless, then pinned is infact inflicting several conditions and it's more severe then it's own description involves.
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack
Would then be stacked with helpless in that situation (with the exception of the dc to escape...)
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe.
so by saying they are helpless and "pinned" they have an ac of -9 (more if you've "tripped" them and made them prone...)
When it says pinned is a more severe version of grappled I assume it means in areas like armor penalty, spell casting. That the areas that it doesn't overlap on do in fact apply, because they aren't stacking and being doubly compounded.
So for spells, you aren't making two concentration checks to get one spell off if pinned (and also meeting the no somatic component or material)
It's hard to see this and assume you cannot perform a melee attack as you could while grappled, because it provides no language excluding an attack nor does it say "you can only do these actions"
If the first sentence is in fact restricting it somehow and isn't just flavor but a direction of "and the following is the only thing you can do" why include that you cannot move? And then why include the bound description? Now you're declaring them helpless without specifying they are helpless.
This aspect of pinned needs a clear cut FAQ regarding attacking.
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"You can't move" has its standard English meaning here. You can't accomplish most physical actions other than trying to escape. You can speak, unless the grappler takes a further action to stop you.
If you try to cast a spell that has only verbal components, or none, you must make a Concentration check (only one) at the same DC as if you were grappled. Once you get the spell off, you can specify targets or a point of origin by the normal rules. You can easily target the grappler, as you are touching him.
A pinned creature is not helpless. A bound creature is in an equivalent condition to pinned, but is also helpless.
The not being able to move equates to being immobilized
however, the rules are clear you can only do certain things. Attempt to escape via grapple check versus CMD or Escape artist check Versus CMD, or you can take verbal and mental actions such as casting a spell that doesn't have any somatic or material components or maybe convincing the grappler to let you go. That is it.
SKR says this
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so SKR says 2+2 isn't 5... that's really nothing in support of this, it's just stating that it's not agreeing with the can't attack or not but just stating an obvious answer.
the question brought up in that thread of
"A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take." (RAW)
does not equal
"A pinned creature is limited to the following actions."
was entirely ignored by him.
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Engulfed opponents gain the pinned condition, are in danger of suffocating, are trapped within the creature's body until they are no longer pinned, and may be subject to other special attacks from the creature.
If an engulfed creature cuts its way free (the mouther's damage reduction still applies to those inside)
So if you're pinned, how can you cut your way out?
Likewise similar example with shoggoth
A shoggoth may attempt to engulf as many creatures as it grapples or tramples in a round. This ability otherwise functions as swallow whole, save that a creature that cut its way out of a shoggoth leaves no hole in the protoplasmic creature's body.
There is no text that says you may only do these few things, there is no text that says you cannot attack.
Those two abilities work entirely different...one is based off swallow whole and follows its mechanics along with what is added in its description...the other has nothing to do with swallow whole and has its own effects
Using Material and Somatic components for spells - complex gestures and precise pinches of various materials chosen from dozens upon your person - is more complex than stabbing.
The rules state not only that you can cut your way out while Helpless(bound) but that Pinned is a more severe version of grapple. Since you are allowed to make natural, unarmed and light/one-handed weapon attacks while grappled, it would follow that you may make attacks while pinned but that they are more limited (as it is a more severe version of the same condition).
I would rule that you may make these same attacks while pinned with the caveat that the weapon must already be in hand OR be an accessible light weapon if drawn, and perhaps limiting the number of attacks per round depending on the context. Being bound by the arms via a burly barbarian would make conventionally attacking more difficult than wrestling with the gesticulating confines of a monster's stomach is likely to.
There are items in the Adventurer's Armory that are specifically useful for instances like these.
It might be a good idea to create a house rule, something like the maximum number of available attacks a defender can make while pinned is limited to one per five points of CMB, or simply that while pinned you are limited to one standard attack action and cannot make a full attack.
A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check.
Apparently, under some circumstances, there are other ways to free oneself. Being engulfed by a gibbering mouther seems to be a particular way of being pinned that allows cutting oneself free. Explained in very little detail, unfortunately. Nothing seems to preclude swinging an enormous greataxe to do so, for example.
Pinning is a huge, complicated mess to begin with, and things like 'engulf' don't help to clean it up. Definitely needs some FAQ love.
Engulf (EX) The creature can engulf creatures in its path as part of a standard action. It cannot make other attacks during a round in which it engulfs. The creature merely has to move over its opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Targeted creatures can make attacks of opportunity against the creature, but if they do so, they are not entitled to a saving throw against the engulf attack. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity can attempt a Reflex save to avoid being engulfed—on a success, they are pushed back or aside (target's choice) as the creature moves forward. Engulfed opponents gain the pinned condition, are in danger of suffocating, are trapped within the creature's body until they are no longer pinned, and may be subject to other special attacks from the creature. The save DC is Strength-based.
Nowhere in this does it say anything about cutting yourself free...just because both abilities have the same name do not mean they are the same...as in these two
Engulf (Ex) This ability functions as swallow whole, except for the following changes. An engulfed creature is trapped in the gibbering mouther's body, where several of its mouths continue to feed and drain blood. A gibbering mouther can engulf only one foe of its size or smaller at a time. If an engulfed creature cuts its way free (the mouther's damage reduction still applies to those inside), the mouther simply flows together again and can still use its engulf attack.
Now THIS ability follows Swallow Whole, meaning there IS NO PINNED CONDITION, read swallow whole, I have to leave right now and do not have time to post it (sorry)
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Drakkiel, your rational is completely wrong. If pinned does not say you cannot attack, and conditions that give you the pinned condition do not say you cannot or can attack, but assume you to be able to... you don't immediately leap to "you cannot attack" as you have done. If the property of substitution can hold, you can use it.
However, I did get two emails that put this neatly to bed for me and my players.
Sent 26 minutes ago
From Stephen Radney-MacFarland Add to Contacts
To lantzkev
Subject Re: one of my players, grappled
That is not the total answer I gave him. I referred him to the pinned condition on page 568 of the Core Rulebook and noted that the condition limits your actions with the following exceptions:1) Escape
2) Mental actions (such as cast spell-like abilities)
3) Verbal actions (such as cast a V component only spell)Pinned is not the same as helpless. Pinned is its own condition. You can do more things and suffer fewer penalties when your are pinned.
I hope that helps.
(he did the last Grapple FAQ, player sent me an email stating an answer from him so I sent a confirm, prior to that I had sent one to Jason Buhlman)
Aside from verbal and mental actions, the only action a pinned creature can usually take is to attempt to free itself. Attacks are not listed as an action they can take.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
So now they just need to put this into FAQ form and a problem is set to bed.
Umm...MY RATIONALE had nothing to due with what I thought you could or could not do when pinned...my statements were against you using the engulf ability in your argument because they were not the same ability...they were quite different
You were using quotes from two different abilities for your argument by saying that since one says you are pinned and the other mentions cutting yourself free that it meant you could attack while pinned
My statements were simply stating that using those abilities in your argument had no basis since they both followed different rules
I had nothing to say about actual actions you could take while pinned because I already read it perfectly fine and had no issues with the ruling of pinned
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Drakkiel, If the pinned condition precludes attacking and this condition inflicts the pinned condition, then there is "zero" way of attacking your way out.
It's not that the two conditions are different, it's that they simply don't interact according to the rules depending on which way you look at pinned. If engulf inflict pinned, it's impossible for a engulfed creature to attack it's way out.
If an engulfed creature cuts its way free (the mouther's damage reduction still applies to those inside)
shoggoth may attempt to engulf as many creatures as it grapples or tramples in a round. This ability otherwise functions as swallow whole, save that a creature that cut its way out of a shoggoth...
Engulf (EX)... Engulfed opponents gain the pinned condition
Do the above bolded indicate how your opinion is contrary and now against the rules of at least two creature entry?
You cannot cut your way free of the above creatures, because when you're pinned you cannot attack. Your rational was indeed flawed in relation to this. Your rational meant that the vaguely worded pinned prevents these two creatures from having critters cut themselves out, and if you can't do that why mention it?
As we know now, pinned breaks the flavor and intent of these creatures (since they have no special rule that lets you attack while pinned and engulfed in them)
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as far as i can tell, the shoggoth and the gibbering mouther's engulf both work like swallow whole (which doesn't impose a pin, and allows escaping by cutting one's way out), and aren't actually using the universal engulf rules (which imposes a pin, and only allows escaping the pin normally i.e. via CMB check). the use of the name engulf for abilities that aren't actually related is the confusing factor, but that certainly happens in other cases. end result = shoggoth and gibbering mouther engulf ISN'T an example of the rules envisioning allowing one to make an attack while pinned.
that said, the rules for pinned aren't just telling you what you can't do, they are telling you the only things that you CAN do.
the exact wording doesn't quite match that, but that is the clear intent as confirmed by the developers.
DOESN'T actually correspond to 'you can't take any actions unless the ones we mention.'
i've informed paizo of the errata issue of the RAW wording long ago, and they haven't lifted a finger.
perhaps since you raised the issue with them via email it may get fixed in the next errata/print run.
regardless, the intent is obvious from reading the text itself, if the intent was only to ban the actions specifically banned (allowing everything else), it doesn't make sense to repeatedly emphasize taking 'few actions' and then specifically allow certain actions, the text only makes sense if you understand it as the writer believing that he was saying you can't take any actions except the ones specifically allowed. also mentioning no movement/somatic/etc is indeed superfluous, but the rules are superfluous sometimes, and those aspects are obviously viewable as the most signifigant repurcussions to mention, thus worthwhile to call out on their own - that writing approach is followed elsewhere in the rules.
you can also look at paizo's errata history, where they fixed a discrepancy in two sections of the rules' differing limitations while grappled (one was nearly identical to pinned, one wasn't as extreme, the latter was the intended one), while leaving pinned un-modified.
Forseti already quoted the rules:
A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check.
So you can ALWAYS attempt to free yourself, it just happens that CMB/Escape Artist is USUALLY that means.
This means that if some Pinning creature's ability DID state that Attacking or 'cutting your way out' WAS a valid way to escape that Pin, that there wouldn't be any conflict with what Pin allows you to do and the cutting out part, because trying to escape the pin is always allowed, the 'usually' is an open door for other methods to potentially apply.Although that is ultimately more problematic a reading IMHO, because I can think of plenty of spells like Dimension Door with Somatic components, normally barred, which would indeed free you from the pin, so thus should always be allowed. That is not the intent, I strongly feel.
Actually, this comes to another RAW problem with the Grapple/Pin rules, if you are teleported, or otherwise moved outside the Reach of the Grappler/Pinner, nothing in the rules says the Grapple/Pin condition instantly ends, they will just expire if/when the Grappler/Pinner can't maintain on their next round. (I've also mentioned this issue and flagged it for Errata with no effect... Paizo seems to expect players to slavishly follow RAW in some cases, and overlook poorly worded RAW in others.) Although that issue itself is regrettable, it actually prevents the issue with Dimension Door and Pinned, since using Dimension Door DOESN'T lead to you immediately escaping the Pin, it ISN'T an always allowed action. Likewise, even killing the Grappler/Pinner doesn't immediately end the Grapple/Pin, so mere attacking cannot qualify as an attempt to escape... so attacking (other than the CMB check to escape) is NOT an action allowed while Pinned.
In the long run, Paizo should probably just remove the 'usually' wording from Pinned, and if they want some Pinning ability in the future to allow another action to escape from it, they can mention that that specific Pinning ability DOES allow an additional action which can be used to escape.
You DO NOT gain the pinned condition from being swallowed whole...so you DO NOT gain the pinned conditions from the mouther's Engulf ability, since it follows the mechanics of swallow whole
When you are Swallowed Whole you only keep the GRAPPLED condition, thats the reason you can cut yourself free as it EXPLICITLY states that you can
AND BY THE WAY, a shoggoth's engulf does not give the pinned condition either
Engulf (Ex)
To use this ability, the shoggoth must begin its turn grappling a creature or must trample. A shoggoth may attempt to engulf as many creatures as it grapples or tramples in a round. This ability otherwise functions as swallow whole, save that a creature that cuts is way out of a shoggoth leaves no hole in the protoplasmic creature's body.
HOWEVER, the other ability does not work like swallow whole: It doesn't have to have you grappled first, you gain the pinned condition, you get a reflex save to move out of the way, AND YOU CANNOT cut yourself free
THEY ARE COMPLETELY different, by only quoted certain parts of each ability you are causing massive confusion, and not furthering your argument
I WILL SAY AGAIN, I don't care about what you guys want to argue about what you can or cannot do while pinned, I am begging you to stop using wording from two different abilities and confusing people into thinking they are the same, THEY ARE NOT
for those that do think they are the same simply because they are called the same thing, PLEASE FOR YOUR OWN SAKE go fully read them both, I quoted them in my above post, and here is swallowed whole for those that need it as well
Swallow Whole (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent grappled in its mouth (see Grab), it can attempt a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category Smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed causes a creature to take damage each round. The amount and type of damage varies and is given in the creature’s Statistics. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature’s total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.
Bold 1, this means it rolls a check as if it were trying to pin, but it does not give the creature the pinned condition
Bold 2, This shows what the creature gets, the GRAPPLED condition
Bold 3, This shows what the creature is allowed to do (cut itself free)
GO look in the bestiary, there are a ton of creatures that have an "Engulf" ability and they all work differently
Here I found one that works normally, as in the actual Engulf EX that is found in the Universal Rules
Sea Scourge CR 6
XP 2,400
N Large ooze (aquatic)
Init –2; Senses blindsight 60 ft.; Perception –5
DEFENSE
AC 7, touch 7, flat-footed 7 (–2 Dex, –1 size)
hp 76 (9d8+36)
Fort +7, Ref +1, Will –2
Defensive Abilities amorphous; Immune acid, ooze traits
OFFENSE
Speed 10 ft., climb 10 ft., swim 20 ft.
Melee 2 slams +12 (1d6+7 plus 1d4 acid and grab)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks acid jet, constrict (1d6+7 plus 1d4 acid), engulf (DC 21, 1d6 acid and paralysis)
STATISTICS
Str 24, Dex 7, Con 18, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1
Base Atk +6; CMB +14 (+18 grapple); CMD 22 (can't be tripped)
Skills Climb +15, Swim +15
SQ amphibious
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Acid Jet (Ex)
Once every 1d4 rounds as a standard action, a sea scourge can shoot a stream of acidic juices in a 30-foot line, dealing 2d8 points of acid damage to any creatures in the area (DC 18 Reflex save for half damage). The save DC is Constitution-based.
This creatures engulf does give them the pinned condition
USEFUL TIP:If you want a quick way to tell if you can cut your way out of a creatures engulf ability, it will have a listed AC and HP required to cut, as in the Gibbering Mouther
Special Attacks blood drain, engulf (6d4 damage plus 2 Con damage, AC 13, hp 4), gibbering, ground manipulation, spittle (+6 ranged touch)
The Sea Scourges Engulf does not list this because there is not "cutting yourself out" of its engulf
how confusing. all these non-engulf engulfs should be errata'd to have some other ability name.