Greetings, Alchemists! We've all seen the many threads addressing the issues that face us (and by all means, please contribute on them!), but why dont we take another look at our powers?
What are some fun, creative, and awesome ways you or your teammates used alchemical items? Some examples on my end:
Attached bombs to crossbow bolt/arrows. Gives you a -2 improvised penalty, but now you have a ye olde RPG grenade for an attack that does arrow damage with a little kick
Now that familiars can have hands, you get a lot of neat tricks: adminster elixirs to distant allies, draw/administer an elixir to you using only one command an animal action, strike up a smokestick from a distance, hand off items to people, earn more money at downtime, set up a delayed bomb stealthily, or even craft their own stuff
Poisoned caltrops
What kinda stuff are y'all doing?
Those familiar hands are nifty. I guess I'll strike dark vision off of my theory build's familiar to make room for them. Still no definition on how much bulk can they carry?
As far as fun combos go, one of my players pointed out that Cat's Eye Elixirs and Smokesticks go together like PB&J.
That IS a good combo, and really early entry!
So far, no rules on the bulk, but I'd probably assume something the size of a dog or w/e could carry at least 1 bulk using a special harness/bandolier
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A 9th-level elven (with racial weapon feats) alchemist archer using quicksilver mutagen and arrows poisoned with wyvern poison proved to be very good (tested in DD part4). Can't call it particularly creative, looks like just the class WAI.
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Alchemic_Genius wrote: Attached bombs to crossbow bolt/arrows. Gives you a -2 improvised penalty, but now you have a ye olde RPG grenade for an attack that does arrow damage with a little kick I didn't know you could do this! Do you know where in the Playtest book I can read up on this and how it works? The Explosive Missile discovery from PF1 was a personal favorite of my alchemist, and I'd love to be able to give that to him for the playtest. :)
Technically, there's no rules explicitly saying you can (so, I mean, there's some DM approval needed), but the improvised weapon rules are deliberately open ended for cases like this, and it's pretty easy to argue that an alchemist fire at the end of an arrow is an improvised piece of ammunition, and the flask hitting something at bow/crossbow speeds is enough to break the flask open, and all of the bombs are stated to react with contact with air.
Given the -2 poor quality penalty (or -1 if you have junk tinker and made it yourself), its pretty balanced rules wise. I'd love to see a proper Explosive Missile feat. It would work so much nicer in the new action economy
Alchemic_Genius wrote: Technically, there's no rules explicitly saying you can (so, I mean, there's some DM approval needed), but the improvised weapon rules are deliberately open ended for cases like this, and it's pretty easy to argue that an alchemist fire at the end of an arrow is an improvised piece of ammunition, and the flask hitting something at bow/crossbow speeds is enough to break the flask open, and all of the bombs are stated to react with contact with air.
Given the -2 poor quality penalty (or -1 if you have junk tinker and made it yourself), its pretty balanced rules wise. I'd love to see a proper Explosive Missile feat. It would work so much nicer in the new action economy
Most GMs wouldn't let ordinary arrows and bows be loaded with vials.
I mean, so far, according to the rules, each alchemist fire is 10times the weight of an arrow, making it impossible to fly (let alone the arrow balance issue).
But if your GM allows it, cool.
On the same vein of "improbable to be accepted but really cool if it does" you can argue that you can bundle up a bunch of bombs together and throw them as a massive one.
Bulk =/= weight. Leather armor and a formula book are both bulk 1, but the armor is obviously heavier. The bomb arrow has the same bulk (both in game amd irl) as an arrow that has an oil soaked rag wrapped around the tip, but few would say no to a fire arrow.
I can say from experience that bundle bombs are great fun, though in most games, they were considered too big to throw normally, so I usually delivered them via undead minion or dropping them from above
I think you might have more success trying to load and throw a bomb via a sling.
Though honestly probably not worth it.
For the bow.. I can't really help but feel like most would call that splash damage only. which in p2 is a rather paltry thing.
with the sling I could see getting the base damage+1/2 str on top of the bomb.
buuut...
Three actions to use.
1 to draw bomb. 1 to load sling, 1 to use.
Honestly.. the reload/item draw for any non bow weapon and for alchemists in particular pretty much ruins so many thing
(tangent. I still am super annoyed and find it crazy weird that a bow is 0 reload, a sling, a dart, and hand crossbows are all 1 action reloads....)
I get xbows having reload.
But loading a sling is no different from nocking an arrow.
And if you can draw an arrow from a quiver as free actions, why can't you draw darts from their bandolier?
Not to mention that shuriken that are dart like are in reality extremely common, and those, magically, have no reload...
Pf2 is loaded with arbitrary "balance" actions that simply make no sense.
As for loading bombs on arrows, there is an illustration of various bombs, none of which would allow an arrow to fly. The GM allowing you to make custom ones that do without a discovery or something is a houserule, and the more power to those who allow it, but I just don't think that it'll be common to do so. (you are correct that bulk can be either weight or mass, but either one of those ruins arrows)
If you're going by illustration, alchemist fire is a fuse grenade and not a molotov cocktail without needing to light it. Going by what's realistic isn't a particularly great metric for a fantasy rpg. And really, the issues of arrows not flying well with a payload (believe me, with how strong actual old timey bows are compared to now, it'll still go) is reflected in the -2 penalty. Irl, arrows actually have been equiped with bombs, the hwatcha shot arrows w with black powder bombs on the shaft.
Zwordman's sling idea actually has legit support in military tactics; putting a charged grenade or a satchel bomb into a tar dipped bag and slinging the whole thing was used to stick explosives on walls numerous times.
That said, this all sounds like reasons we need the Explosive Missile feat!
I get heavy and light crossbows having a reload, but as someone who's used both a now and a hand crossbow, I have a higher RoF with the hand crossbow due to the smaller size. I would like a chinese style repeating crossbow in pf though, those things are really cool
Alchemic_Genius wrote: If you're going by illustration, alchemist fire is a fuse grenade and not a molotov cocktail without needing to light it. Going by what's realistic isn't a particularly great metric for a fantasy rpg. And really, the issues of arrows not flying well with a payload (believe me, with how strong actual old timey bows are compared to now, it'll still go) is reflected in the -2 penalty. Irl, arrows actually have been equiped with bombs, the hwatcha shot arrows w with black powder bombs on the shaft.
Zwordman's sling idea actually has legit support in military tactics; putting a charged grenade or a satchel bomb into a tar dipped bag and slinging the whole thing was used to stick explosives on walls numerous times.
That said, this all sounds like reasons we need the Explosive Missile feat!
I get heavy and light crossbows having a reload, but as someone who's used both a now and a hand crossbow, I have a higher RoF with the hand crossbow due to the smaller size. I would like a chinese style repeating crossbow in pf though, those things are really cool
I've fired a bow on multiple occasions. It's mostly a balance issue, not a draw strength issue. It doesn't really matter how much pull you put on the bow if the arrow just instantly tumbles in midair.
A -2 wouldn't fly in my table, and from my peers I'm considered a generally lenient GM that actually enjoys his players coming up with out of the box "actions". (thinking about it. I wouldn't have any issues of someone with the inventor feat, "inventing" arrows that can be loaded like vials and making those. Although he couldn't throw the grenade style like normal)
But all this could be solved with either a class ability/feat that allowed that, or, even simpler, an exotic (or just plain uncommon) special xbow/arrows that allowed that.
In fact, I'm all in favor of adding a bit more "martial prowess" to the alchemist since one of the major issues he has is sustainability (martial actions always increase sustainability imo).
But using an action to tie a bottle to the end of an arrow and still expect it to fly, sounds kinda absurd to me.
Who said anything about doing it as an action the middle of combat? Make a vail the same general size as the head of a signal arrow and pour acid or w/e into it. The weight would not be enough to send it tumbling after you shoot it, though it would probably jank up the flight a little (-2 to hit).
That said, keeping in spirit of the thread:
A lot of people feel that the alchemist is ineffective as a poison user, but if you are a ranged attacker, you can always poison a bunch of arrows in advance!
Tindertwigs instantly light flammable things on fire as one action. Embrace your inner arsonist!
Alchemic_Genius wrote: Who said anything about doing it as an action the middle of combat? Make a vail the same general size as the head of a signal arrow and pour acid or w/e into it. The weight would not be enough to send it tumbling after you shoot it, though it would probably jank up the flight a little (-2 to hit).
That said, keeping in spirit of the thread:
A lot of people feel that the alchemist is ineffective as a poison user, but if you are a ranged attacker, you can always poison a bunch of arrows in advance!
Tindertwigs instantly light flammable things on fire as one action. Embrace your inner arsonist!
i was excited about poisons initially, and really thought they could be the saving grace of the alchemist, but playtesting them in a bit higher level, they were terrible due to a couple of reasons:
they are all fort save, and fort save is by far the best monster saving throw. that translates to something like 65% success rate for the monster vs a level appropriate poison. 70%+ if that level didn't have a specific poison.
You have 0 ways to debuff this fort save as an alchemist.
you have 0 ways to up the DC of the poisons (the discovery is hella expensive at 3 class feats to get it and it still just offers just 1-2point)
you can only use 1 poison every 1-2 levels, since you have to keep using th eONE level appropriate injury poison.
poison resist/immunity is as common as it was in pf1
no "proficiency modifier" for your poisons while saving throws have inherent "scaling proficency modifiers"
without any sort of weapon proficiency, your attack bonus is low, meaning misses, meaning wasted poison charges.
long story short, at level 12, I had 2 poisons land at stage 1, and 1 poison land at stage 2. That was using more than 20 doses of them in different encounters.
so, 1/10 for the poison to actually do something. (and that something being just a bit of extra damage once)
*imo:
poisons need to at least deal half their damage (not their effects) ONCE even at a succesful saving throws. At least, alchemist's poisons (make it part of potent poisoning, remove potent poisoning requirements, and drop it down to like level 8 as well)
Poisons would be pretty good if the DC on those created with resonance scaled just like spell DC. But even doing that your still going to (mostly) use your highest level poison because they do more damage then the lower level ones. Heck, if Powerful Alchemy worked on stuff made with Advanced Alchemy that would fix the problem.
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