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The new dying rules seem to have a problem in that two effects are reliant on "start of your turn" timing: the Fortitude saving throw to potentially reduce the dying condition ("When you're dying, at the start of each of your turns you attempt a special Fortitude saving throw") and the unconscious condition ("If you return to consciousness, you'll need to wait until the start of your turn to get your actions and reaction again"). There should be some clarification on the timing of events here, because it is totally unclear.
Is unconsciousness checked for first? Because if so, that is exceedingly punishing. If a character gets dropped to 0 Hit Points by a non-critical hit and they do not spend a Hero Point, even if they succeed, the character still does nothing on that turn. They have to wait until the start of their next turn to finally regain actions and reactions... and even then, they are probably slowed 1.
If the Fortitude saving throw happens first, then that is a little better. A character can be dropped to dying 1 by a non-critical hit, roll a Fortitude saving throw at the start of their turn, succeed, and merely have to spend an entire turn fumbling around with only two actions, which are probably spent on standing from prone and picking up a dropped item.
Even if the lighter, more forgiving interpretation is used, I am still convinced that the dying rules are fairly bad and simply unfun. Being restored to consciousness by a Hero Point or healing (the most reliable methods available), only to have to spend an entire turn standing and picking up an item, is demeaning and demoralizing. It makes a character ripe for being whack-a-moled right after they stand up and pick up a dropped item.
Worse is when a character gets dropped to 0 Hit Points by a critical hit. I have GMed two iterations of The Lost Star, two iterations of In Pale Mountain's Shadow, and two iterations of The Rose Street Revenge so far, and more than half of the times a PC dropped to 0 Hit Points was caused by an unexpected critical hit. This places a PC down to dying 2. Thus, even if they spend a Hero Point or immediately receive healing, they are still prone, disarmed, and left with a measly one action with which to stand up. They are easy pickings for a whack-a-moling right there.
I just do not see the point of these dying rules, even with the update. They are still overly long and complex, and they still make dropping to 0 Hit Points such a grueling and annoying ordeal. I can understand if Paizo is aiming for something like "dropping to 0 Hit Points is a rare event, and thus a huge ordeal that all players should avoid as much as possible," but that simply is not practical given how luck-based and Russian-roulette-like the combat is, with its automatically confirmed critical hits, expanded critical ranges, and crit-fishable multiple attacks for all combatants by default.
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“Colette Brunel” wrote: Worse is when a character gets dropped to 0 Hit Points by a critical hit. I have GMed two iterations of The Lost Star, two iterations of In Pale Mountain's Shadow, and two iterations of The Rose Street Revenge so far, and more than half of the times a PC dropped to 0 Hit Points was caused by an unexpected critical hit. This places a PC down to dying 2. Thus, even if they spend a Hero Point or immediately receive healing, they are still prone, disarmed, and left with a measly one action with which to stand up. They are easy pickings for a whack-a-moling right there. In my opinion, that’s pretty much what should happen, however - if you have been hurt to the point of dying and being sprawled to the floor, you will not immediately jump back up even if treated or healed - it’s going to take precious seconds to get one’s bearings, get off the floor and collect one’s self. Even if you are a proponent of magic healing immediately restoring your wits and vigor, you start out sprawled on the floor in a completely helpless position, taking precious seconds to get back in the fight. For me, it checks a pretty important suspension of disbelief box, fun or not.
My characters are taking Nimble Crawl, so they can get away if they get downed (including Step, which is available if movement speed is 10 or better).
ENHenry wrote: In my opinion, that’s pretty much what should happen, however - if you have been hurt to the point of dying and being sprawled to the floor, you will not immediately jump back up even if treated or healed - it’s going to take precious seconds to get one’s bearings, get off the floor and collect one’s self. Even if you are a proponent of magic healing immediately restoring your wits and vigor, you start out sprawled on the floor in a completely helpless position, taking precious seconds to get back in the fight. For me, it checks a pretty important suspension of disbelief box, fun or not. I can see how it is believable.
I cannot see how it is enjoyable to be on the receiving end of them. Thus far, all six of my playthroughs have ended in TPKs for all six parties involved.
Colette Brunel wrote: ENHenry wrote: In my opinion, that’s pretty much what should happen, however - if you have been hurt to the point of dying and being sprawled to the floor, you will not immediately jump back up even if treated or healed - it’s going to take precious seconds to get one’s bearings, get off the floor and collect one’s self. Even if you are a proponent of magic healing immediately restoring your wits and vigor, you start out sprawled on the floor in a completely helpless position, taking precious seconds to get back in the fight. For me, it checks a pretty important suspension of disbelief box, fun or not. I can see how it is believable.
I cannot see how it is enjoyable to be on the receiving end of them. Thus far, all six of my playthroughs have ended in TPKs for all six parties involved. That is the greatest amount of unluckiness I have yet heard of in the whole playtest! Great goodness!
Our group had no deaths nor unconsciousness for Part 1 (Not for lack of trying by the GM) and only one unconsciousness from Part 2 (still ongoing). In fact, on average they said part 1 had about 5% to 6% character death. That level of TPK is lottery-level odds.
I'm not sure if making your saving throw wakes you up. There's nothing to indicate that it does, it just says that your dying condition goes down. Just about every other instance of 'stabilizing' leaves you at 0 HP and unconscious, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't.
Zorae wrote: I'm not sure if making your saving throw wakes you up. There's nothing to indicate that it does, it just says that your dying condition goes down. Just about every other instance of 'stabilizing' leaves you at 0 HP and unconscious, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't. It is poorly-worded, but: "When you lose the dying condition, you regain consciousness, but are slowed for 1 round."
And: "When you’re unconscious and at 0 HP but no longer dying, you naturally return to 1 HP."
I believe you are supposed to return to 1 Hit Point.
The actual full line on that second one is "When you’re unconscious and at 0 HP but no longer dying, you naturally return to 1 HP and awaken after sufficient time passes. The GM determines how long you remain unconscious, from at least 10 minutes to several hours." The "sufficient time passes" is important, as is the referenced time.
Technically, when you're at dying 0, you lose the dying condition and become conscious...and then immediately fall unconscious again because you're still at 0 HP.
Colette Brunel wrote: Zorae wrote: I'm not sure if making your saving throw wakes you up. There's nothing to indicate that it does, it just says that your dying condition goes down. Just about every other instance of 'stabilizing' leaves you at 0 HP and unconscious, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't. It is poorly-worded, but: "When you lose the dying condition, you regain consciousness, but are slowed for 1 round."
And: "When you’re unconscious and at 0 HP but no longer dying, you naturally return to 1 HP."
I believe you are supposed to return to 1 Hit Point. I think the sentence "When you lose the dying condition, you regain consciousness, but are slowed for 1 round." is supposed to be additional information about the sentence before it: "You lose the dying condition upon returning to 1 or more Hit Points." It should read, I believe, "Upon returning to 1 or more Hit Points, you lose the dying condition and regain consciousness, but are slowed for 1 round."
The way it's written doesn't imply that, but under Administer First Aid, it says "now that you can be at 0 HP and not be dying" and the mechanics text of Administer First Aid specifically says "loses the dying condition (but remains unconscious)"
As for your second quote, you left off the second half of the sentence: "When you are at 0 HP but no longer dying, you naturally return to 1 HP and awaken after sufficient time passes" This also implies that losing the dying condition doesn't immediately put you at 1 HP and conscious.
danedori wrote: As for your second quote, you left off the second half of the sentence: "When you are at 0 HP but no longer dying, you naturally return to 1 HP and awaken after sufficient time passes" This also implies that losing the dying condition doesn't immediately put you at 1 HP and conscious. Goodness; you are actually completely right in that regard. Even if you (critically) succeed on the Fortitude saving throw and go from dying 1 (or 2) to dying 0, you are no longer dying, but you are still unconscious. You have to wait until someone heals you, or the GM plays nice and lets you wake up after "at least 10 minutes to several hours."
Hero Points and receiving healing are the only viable ways to pop back into a fight. I suppose that is not much of a change from 1e, but it is still quite demoralizing. Even then, Hero Points and receiving healing still leave you prone, with items dropped, and with actions lost.
ENHenry wrote: “Colette Brunel” wrote: Worse is when a character gets dropped to 0 Hit Points by a critical hit. I have GMed two iterations of The Lost Star, two iterations of In Pale Mountain's Shadow, and two iterations of The Rose Street Revenge so far, and more than half of the times a PC dropped to 0 Hit Points was caused by an unexpected critical hit. This places a PC down to dying 2. Thus, even if they spend a Hero Point or immediately receive healing, they are still prone, disarmed, and left with a measly one action with which to stand up. They are easy pickings for a whack-a-moling right there. In my opinion, that’s pretty much what should happen, however - if you have been hurt to the point of dying and being sprawled to the floor, you will not immediately jump back up even if treated or healed - it’s going to take precious seconds to get one’s bearings, get off the floor and collect one’s self. Even if you are a proponent of magic healing immediately restoring your wits and vigor, you start out sprawled on the floor in a completely helpless position, taking precious seconds to get back in the fight. For me, it checks a pretty important suspension of disbelief box, fun or not. I agree completely, ENHenry. There needs to be some sort of realism in the game, otherwise it becomes silly.
nogoodscallywag wrote: ENHenry wrote: “Colette Brunel” wrote: Worse is when a character gets dropped to 0 Hit Points by a critical hit. I have GMed two iterations of The Lost Star, two iterations of In Pale Mountain's Shadow, and two iterations of The Rose Street Revenge so far, and more than half of the times a PC dropped to 0 Hit Points was caused by an unexpected critical hit. This places a PC down to dying 2. Thus, even if they spend a Hero Point or immediately receive healing, they are still prone, disarmed, and left with a measly one action with which to stand up. They are easy pickings for a whack-a-moling right there. In my opinion, that’s pretty much what should happen, however - if you have been hurt to the point of dying and being sprawled to the floor, you will not immediately jump back up even if treated or healed - it’s going to take precious seconds to get one’s bearings, get off the floor and collect one’s self. Even if you are a proponent of magic healing immediately restoring your wits and vigor, you start out sprawled on the floor in a completely helpless position, taking precious seconds to get back in the fight. For me, it checks a pretty important suspension of disbelief box, fun or not. I agree completely, ENHenry. There needs to be some sort of realism in the game, otherwise it becomes silly. That's why we get healed with magic, so we can skip the bloody realism. I don't want dark heresy in pf.
Colette Brunel wrote:
Goodness; you are actually completely right in that regard. Even if you (critically) succeed on the Fortitude saving throw and go from dying 1 (or 2) to dying 0, you are no longer dying, but you are still unconscious. You have to wait until someone heals you, or the GM plays nice and lets you wake up after "at least 10 minutes to several hours."
Isn't that basically how it works now in 1e?
Ps: The death rules shouldn't be balanced around 100% TPKs. I suspect that is an "edge case."
The new dying rules are whack-a-mole, oh so very whack-a-mole. If a character gets dropped to 0 Hit Points and then spends a Hero Point, they remain conscious, yet prone (i.e. flat-footed against melee attacks and thus more likely to be hit and critically hit). In that exact moment, the character is ripe for being immediately knocked out again by an enemy wishing to eliminate a character who is clinging on to consciousness.
In the first iteration of my Raiders of Shrieking Peak playthrough, in the second encounter against the minotaur elites, the PCs were dropped to 0 Hit Points exactly 12 times during that single battle before finally TPKing. A four-PC party dropping to 0 Hit Points no less than a dozen times in a single battle, thanks to the whack-a-mole effect, is completely absurd!
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The errata version is better than its predecessor. But, the problem with both iterations is that they should be simple and intuitive, like the 3 action economy, and are not. Instead, they are needlesly complex; in that complexity ambiguity and inertia thrive. From scaling death DCs that GMs have to pause to affirm to doling out various levels of action penalties based on your dying condition, momentum-breaking fiddle bits make dying a formula to be solved rather than an indisputable event obvious to all. Make the death DC a flat check, making it less of a personal event and more of a universal force of nature, and apply a one-size fits all penalty during the recovery round. Reduce the number of moving parts.
Recent threads in Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion
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