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Animal companions calculate their modifiers and DCs just as you do, though with the exception of barding allowing an item bonus to AC (armor class) of up to +2, they never benefit from item bonuses.
So, as I read this, my animal companion gets no magical benefit from magical armor? Also, I can’t give my animal companion something that will help it with its saving throws? Animal companions are just meat shields now?
This doesn't make sense to me.
There is a specific exception called out for barding whixh allows them to have their item to AC but not saves.
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Yeah, there's a lot of things that don't really make sense in this edition to help enforce game balance. I'm actually pretty okay with this instance, as it's basically removing the requirement to spend your wealth on your animal companion to keep up with the games math expectations. On the opposite hand, I'm pretty disappointed that you have to spend 4 class feats to keep up with those same expectations.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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This is one of many things which was done for balance which make no sense. I don't agree with the balance part, since it's a player's choice if they want to spend on their companion or their character, so let them choose. And a game which blatantly breaks any concept of realism like this simply isn't worth the time to play.
Also, they're not even consistent - check out the horseshoes of speed.
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This is one of many things which was done for balance which make no sense. I don't agree with the balance part, since it's a player's choice if they want to spend on their companion or their character, so let them choose. And a game which blatantly breaks any concept of realism like this simply isn't worth the time to play.
Also, they're not even consistent - check out the horseshoes of speed.
Horseshoes of speed aside, the introduction of resonance and investing makes "realism" in applicable - animal companions can't use magic items because they can't invest in them, only fully sentient creatures can. That's the "reality" of the game world now.
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The no item bonus has to go.
As it stands right now, no matter your animal companion's current level and AC, a regular monster of their level needs to roll 2-3+ on a d20 for their first attack in a round to hit them.
For Nimble Ambushers, this goes as high as 5+ on a d20.
Which is pitifully low.
Example with Nimble Ambusher Cat (best defense setup I can think of for an animal companion), at level 8 - the earliest you can have a Nimble companion if you're a druid, and it's not an Ambusher yet:
Armor Class = 9 (level 8 + expert proficiency in unarmored defense) + 5 (max DEX modifier achieved with Nimble Cat) = 14.
A Nimble Cat at level 8 has 14 AC.
Again at level 14 - earliest a druid can have a specialized companion:
Armor Class = 16 (level 14 + master proficiency in unarmored defense) + 6 (max DEX modifier achieved with Nimble Ambusher Cat) = 22.
A Nimble Ambusher Cat at level 14 has 22 AC.
Not even going to compare that with a PC, let's just check how it fares against a creature of a similar level:
At level 8, the animal companion has 14 AC.
A Chimera is a level 8 monster with +18 to hit.
The Chimera has 95% to hit your animal companion at level 8 (only misses on a critical failure) and it also has 75% chance to score a critical hit.
Again, at level 14, this time against a Boar Demon:
At level 14, the animal companion has 22 AC.
The Boar Demon is a level 14 monster with +26 to hit.
The Boar Demon has 95% to hit your animal companion at level 14 (only misses on a critical failure) and it also has 75% chance to score a critical hit.
Notice a pattern here?
How is it acceptable to have an animal companion be a crit bag?
This essentially means that you have to pull them off the fight every single round that they attack or use their work together benefit (unless the GM is being kind to you and decides not to target the poor thing).
As a druid, you're going to burn your spell points and spell slots healing your animal companion very fast.
As a ranger, your only bet is a wand of Heal, boosting Nature and hoping you roll favorably with Trick Item.
This certainly can't be in a balanced game.
I understand the argument for animal companions not being as efficient as a regular martial character, so as not to overshadow a real PC with another's class feature.
But animal companions already get less actions per turn because they are minions.
Natural attacks no longer bring any extra benefit of their own.
Buff spells have been considerably nerfed.
Why does your animal companion have to be a wet noodle?
They already hit like one, let them have some survivability so they become a real class feature and not a party's liability!
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Why are you not including the base 10 for ac in these numbers. It should be 24 and 32. Is there a rule im missing that says they start from 0 unlike every other thing in PF2e?
Armor Class = 9 (level 8 + expert proficiency in unarmored defense) + 5 (max DEX modifier achieved with Nimble Cat) = 14.A Nimble Cat at level 8 has 14 AC.
Again at level 14 - earliest a druid can have a specialized companion:
Armor Class = 16 (level 14 + master proficiency in unarmored defense) + 6 (max DEX modifier achieved with Nimble Ambusher Cat) = 22.
A Nimble Ambusher Cat at level 14 has 22 AC.
My bad, just jumped out of bed, forgot the base 10. :D
Will update my post, but my point still stands.Should be as follows:
Example with Nimble Ambusher Cat (best defense setup I can think of for an animal companion), at level 8 - the earliest you can have a Nimble companion if you're a druid, and it's not an Ambusher yet:
Armor Class = 10 + 9 (level 8 + expert proficiency in unarmored defense) + 5 (max DEX modifier achieved with Nimble Cat) = 24.
A Nimble Cat at level 8 has 24 AC.
Again at level 14 - earliest a druid can have a specialized companion:
Armor Class = 10 + 16 (level 14 + master proficiency in unarmored defense) + 6 (max DEX modifier achieved with Nimble Ambusher Cat) = 32.
A Nimble Ambusher Cat at level 14 has 32 AC.
Not even going to compare that with a PC, let's just check how it fares against a creature of a similar level:
At level 8, the animal companion has 24 AC.
A Chimera is a level 8 monster with +18 to hit.
The Chimera has 75% chance to hit your animal companion at level 8.
Again, at level 14, this time against a Boar Demon:
At level 14, the animal companion has 32 AC.
The Boar Demon is a level 14 monster with +26 to hit.
The Boar Demon has 75% chance to hit your animal companion at level 14.
So your animal companion will not take as many crits from the first attack per round than I anticipated BUT it's still very likely they're gonna take multiple hits per round.
Do keep in mind as well that this is a Nimble Ambusher Cat.
A Savage Bear at level 8 with heavy barding has 23 AC.
A Savage Bear at level 14 with heavy barding has 29 AC.
Which results in 80-90% chance depending on level to take a hit from a monster's first attack.
Which means a Druid spends all their spell points healing their companion during the first encounter they have in a day and then has to start burning spell slots as well, or use a wand.
The issue remains the same for Rangers.
I find it hard to believe that anyone would say these numbers are fine if we were discussing a PC class.
Why is it fine for animal companions then?
As it is right now, the best way to manage an animal companion is to resort to hit-and-run tactics: send the animal companion in, have them attack once, next round have them attack again then pull them out from the fight.
This is kinda lame and makes it so that you can't even use their work together benefit reliably.
Surely something can be done about this without making the animal companion an overpowered killing machine (which, again, it should really not be).
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Horseshoes of speed aside, the introduction of resonance and investing makes "realism" in applicable - animal companions can't use magic items because they can't invest in them, only fully sentient creatures can. That's the "reality" of the game world now.This is one of many things which was done for balance which make no sense. I don't agree with the balance part, since it's a player's choice if they want to spend on their companion or their character, so let them choose. And a game which blatantly breaks any concept of realism like this simply isn't worth the time to play.
Also, they're not even consistent - check out the horseshoes of speed.
Except that the rules don't say ACs can't get item bonuses from invested items. There are some which you either don't invest, or the PC can invest for the animal. It's even more ridiculous since regular animals don't have a restriction of not being able to gain item bonuses, only animal companions.
So, buy a horse and put on horseshoes of speed - and they work. But if you bond with the horse and make it your animal companion, the horseshoes suddenly stop working. That's the logical inconsistency.
Magic Fang the 1st level Druid spell also doesn't work but it should. The spell description says it gives an item bonus. So with the new rules update you need to wait until 8th level at the earliest so your companions attacks to count as magical.Also it doesn't work as soon as the animal companion becomes full grown as it only works on attacks that deal 1 die of damage.
Im hoping magic fang changes to being able to be heightened and work like bestial mutagen and change the bonus to circumstance or get rid of the no item bonus for animal companions (but still can not invest).
I have to assume they change magic fang for release. It is the perfect solution to a lot of the animal companion issues but the limitations on it prevent it from being used in the way it seems meant to be used.
I have to assume they change magic fang for release. It is the perfect solution to a lot of the animal companion issues but the limitations on it prevent it from being used in the way it seems meant to be used.
It does seem like an oversight indeed. I would be really surprised if a dev came by around here to tell us that it's working as intended.