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There is always a bigger fish.
Time for them to meet it.
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OP, it sounds like your group likes a certain type of game while you would like to explore some other styles of play.
Perhaps starting a PbP, GMing some PFS on the side or starting a second game group may provide you with an outlet for ideas and gaming styles that you don't think you can do with your current group.
If none of the above items are options, you're going to want to have a talk with your group. It is important for them to have fun, but it is important for you to enjoy it as well.
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Honestly i think this should be settled out of game rather than in it.
You need to sit down, and explain that you're not having fun with the way the game is going, and you deserve to have fun as well. its a game where everyone should enjoy.
try to find a middle ground with them, out of character. nothing you do in game will help
If these players alignment's didn't start out Evil then they probably should be now - unless that NPC Alchemist and Commander made Hitler look like Mother Teresa. If any divine casters worship good gods then they might need to look for a new god too. Alignments shouldn't be shackles around wrists, but saying "I'm chaotic neutral" does not give someone carte blanche to commit evil acts.
It might be worth seeing if your group are open to a more overtly evil-friendly module. Either that or start thinking like they do - dangle a nice juicy NPC in front of them with a plot hook, the twist being that the NPC is a horribly powerful monster in disguise. If they take the quest or ignore them, fair enough. Good luck trying to coup de grace that Elder Dragon though.
There guys seem pretty evil, and they may be hiding behind the "we are the PC's(stars of the show)", so normal retaliation won't happen. I would let them know out of game that they will have the same consequences as an NPC would for committing crimes.
If they continue the guard are then alerted, and if it leads to imprisonment or death then so be it.
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There is always a bigger fish.
Time for them to meet it.
Damnit, Qui-Gon!
Change to Paranoia or Shadowrun or a game where they can get their jollies killing folks. It doesn't seem that they are interested in being heroes or adventurers.
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To be honest, they sound like awful players. If I were you, I'd either cut my losses with the group, and GM for some other people, or just pass off the GM hat to someone else so I wouldn't have to deal with their murder-hobo crap.
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Talk to THEM out of game about your concerns. If they don't seem to care, tell them you aren't having fun and pass the GM hat to someone else. You don't deserve to go through all that hard work just to have them crumple it up and throw it back in your face.
Try enjoying their style of play under a different GM, or create/join a different group that better fits your play style.
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I would train them in game.
They want to act like a bunch of 3rd graders with grown up weapons, then let some 6th graders with bigger weapons come to their playground. There's a reason the good guys (almost) always win - they work together and the bad guys don't.
I have no idea what level your PCs are, but when they're running around killing people for no reason other than they like being evil and childish, let some paladin show up. You know, about 10 level higher than your PCs. He's not alone, either. He has friends all about his level too. He pronounces the PCs as evil that must be expunged from this world and then proceeds to do exactly that.
If you don't like the one-shot punishment scenario, have it begin in stages. A small army of good guys with powerful leaders show up and take over the town. They begin an inquisition to find and capture the evil PCs. If the players are smart, they run very far away. If not, they get caught and tried and convicted. Make it all a due process of law thing. For bonus points, watch some episodes of The Tudors to see how 15th century court systems work. Racks, thumbscrews, torturing the people you KNOW are guilty until they implicate their accomplices, etc. Have the PCs so broken that they have to be dragged to the chopping block because they've been racked so much they can't walk on their own. Even do the oldie but goodie, hang them partially, then draw, quarter, and remove privy parts before the final blow of the executioner's axe.
Make it so they have no in-game benefit for being ruthlessly evil: no fun, no story, always running from the law until eventually they are caught and tried, either together or separately, until they have to make new characters.
Then ask them if they want to play childish evil douchebags again in the next campaign.
Side note: Maybe this just isn't the group for you. You want story, they want mayhem. I think your way is better and they're wrong (based on the fact that story leads to long-term consistent fun and mayhem only leads to short-term gratification that quickly grows old). As such, I think you should reason with them (which failed, time for plan B), train them (plan b) or find another group.
If you decide you are ok continuing play with them it sounds like they are ready for the Town to Hire a party of adventures to come hunt them or the hellnights send groups after them. I have always found that this type of play (if accepted by the GM) is best handled by showing them the consequences.
And as they are acting in the exact way a Bandit organization would treat them as such.
Party of adventures to hunt them
HellNights send reprisals
Locals arm against them
etc
Make them hunted. Give them a chance to get away, get smart about how they play, hell give them a chance to take over part of the emerald spire to keep the adventurers busy while they make their way in further to control more and more of the Spire's forces.
You know, I know quite a few Paladin Hellknights who might pay the PCs a visit.
Talk to THEM out of game about your concerns. If they don't seem to care, tell them you aren't having fun and pass the GM hat to someone else. You don't deserve to go through all that hard work just to have them crumple it up and throw it back in your face.
Try enjoying their style of play under a different GM, or create/join a different group that better fits your play style.
+1
Archon Paladins. Lots of them.
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Okay...firstly, killing people while they beg for their lives is pretty Evil, especially as combined with their previous acts. So...yeah, Evil Alignments all around.
Second, as mentioned, in-world they've just killed the leader of a Hellknight garrison. Welcome to the world of Golarion's most-wanted, with entire squads of Hellknights + Signifiers (who have been briefed on the party's strengths and weaknesses) being sent out specifically to kill you.
Thirdly, and most importantly, you need to put your foot down and/or stand up for yourself. From your description, you're the one begging the players for things...that's not a god thing for a GM to be doing.
You're apparently either not too good at improvisation or unwilling to improvise, which is fine in and of itself, but you clearly need to either improve/start doing that, or (more reasonably in the short term) simply refuse to allow the PCs to go off and do major things without consulting you. The latter isn't as restrictive as it might sound, either. You can just suggest that they must make plans for next session at the end of this one. That way you have the time between sessions to plan. If they change plans without discussing it with you? Sorry, no game this week, bye!
You also need to stop trying to "make it clear what they're supposed to do". They clearly don't care, and it's thus not a useful pastime. Additionally, it's clearly caused you to make several characters behave in unreasonable ways. 11th level LE Hellknights don't refuse to fight when lawbreakers attack them, as a rule. They kill them. Thus, the only reason they got away with killing her is that you were violating the setting to 'send a message'...that's pretty much always a bad idea.
If you want to actually outright tell the PCs that what they're doing is unintended, go for it, but don't alter the world to imply it, that's not useful.
Your heroes are not heroes, they are bandits, you should treat them add such. If you're open to that style of game give them banks to heist, towns to pillage, rival gangs to smack down and Authorities to dodge. This could still be a fulfilling game if you talk it out with the group.
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Short answer to the original poster - you don't.
The players are clearly having fun with mindless mayhem, and you clearly do not enjoy that style of play. Getting into an arms race with the PCs is not the answer (GM should always win an arms race).
You will either kill their PCs, or the mayhem will continue.
The best solution would be to find a new group, your play styles are incompatible. Any other solution is trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
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I think that while a lot of the advice in this thread is good, it is slightly biased.
If you have a group like that, stop planning what they will do, how they will help the people, and how you want to run things.
Plan how they get in trouble instead. The story of some bandits that go over their heads is as good a story as any. Look for real infamous charactersn for inspiration (wild west, pirates, european mercenaries in africa..). See if you enjoy that.
Also, Way of the Wicked AP, though I get the feeling your group really doesnt like to be told what to do. Play with this fact. Perhaps you'll come to like it. Perhaps not, then default to typical answers give in the thread, but try it.
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Eh, sorry for all the trouble you are having with the group. I tend to handle my games along a certain outline. I flat out tell the players that they will be adventuring in a living, breathing, adaptive and highly morphic world. The world reacts to their presence very realistically.
If I had your players for a night, I would fulfill their wildest dreams of murder, mayhem and destruction. They would revel in their stolen wealth and bask in their spoils. And then ... after the merriment and ammoral satisfaction has a chance to settle, they will learn what it means to have stepped into the shoes of the bad guys. They'll probably have fun doing it too. Fending off those troubling do-gooders that seek to bring them to justice, beating back the forerunners of the hellknights that they have so royally pissed off, and all reaching a climax of pure slaughter when an army is raised against them, possibly lead by a small group of similarly leveled NPCs.
I'd be mildly disappointed my planned campaign did not go as planned. However, I am a reactive DM. I thrive off the reactions of the players and if they are having fun, so am I. Perhaps after the conclusion of their character's deaths (they might get lucky and get away, but meh, little chance) they'll realize that I can make their experience in my campaign just as exciting if they want to play nice. Oh, and they might get to keep their characters alive at the conclusion too.
Lovely. To each their own, though.
Some of the ideas above are very good.
Another I use is to give XP only for quest completion, which is typically the XP you would gain for overcoming the encounters along the way. So, random killings do not give your players any XP at all. This tends to alleviate the murder hobo style of gaming.
I like to use, in AP's, the "Your players gain a level at this point of the Chapter" Method. They can still do all the side stuff they want, but they will not gain any XP or level from it.
Thanks everyone for the advice. I mostly just wanted to blow off steam here and rant a bit.
I'm sure we're all familiar with that feeling. Hope you find your fun!
Even though a curve-ball from the PCs can upset plans that you were really hoping would come to pass, I always try to remember that every choice the players make is an opportunity for you to tell a different story.
Never forget the truism that every choice has a consequence. Taking a cue from that idea lets you make it clear to the players that any awful consequences that befall the players happened directly because of the decisions that *they* made. In the long run, this might even lead to better player decisions.
It sounds like they are wanting to take over the town. That sounds like at least two interesting opportunities are opened.
Let them Lose : The Hellknights probably don't take kindly to having one of their strongholds put in jeopardy. They wield tremendous military and political power. Crushing them with an army of Hellknights is an option, but if you don't want to spank them with the military aspect, you might use the political one : The Hellknights make a proclamation (backed by the ruler of the realm) that any who do not leave the town immediately will be considered heretics and will be put to the sword. While the PCs may not heed the warning (and hence become wanted criminals, which it sounds like they are anyways), the townsfolk will. The city will empty itself in a matter of days. A variation on this would be the tradesmen and merchants just deciding to leave because they don't feel safe any more what with all the robberies, chaos and random killings in the city or perhaps a charismatic paladin who tries to show the townsfolk how bad things are and that they should leave (who will likely be executed by the PCs, proving his point beyond a doubt). This leaves the players the Lords of an empty town.
Let them Win : Perhaps the Hellknights abandon the town. That puts the PCs in charge of a town which can be a pyrrhic victory at best. They might soon find that the idea of being in charge was more glamorous than the endless politics and paperwork of administering a town. Also, consider why the Hellknights were there in the first place. Perhaps there is a portal to the Abyss nearby (or even beneath the town itself) that the Hellknights were keeping closed with rituals. Since the Hellknights are gone, the portal is flung wide open, which puts the players in charge of fending off a demonic invasion on the city.
Time for the Paladin Squad
How do I keep my players from killing / torturing / ignoring plot related NPC's?
Kill your PCs? They're only level 9.
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Then the very next game they shoot the head commander.
I really want to just tell the gunslinger that he's now GM and stop playing, but there are people in the group that I do like playing with (but they tend to just go along with the gunslinger).
Thanks everyone for the advice. I mostly just wanted to blow off steam here and rant a bit.
What alignment are these guys supposed to be? Did you specify at the start of the game you wanted to run a heroic campaign with no evil characters (which it seems like)?
If these people are purposely doing things to screw up your planning, over and over again, then why are you playing with them? From what you have written it seems like they are purposefully griefing your game. As a GM who is putting a lot of creative work into your game you deserve more respect than that.
In a Hellknight bastion these guys would be hunted down and brought to justice or killed, given how merciless Hellknights normally are. And do not be afraid to use overwhelming force and organization. Hellknights are feared for just that reason.
Make clear to any survivors that this is a direct result of their chaotic evil mayhem in a bastion of absolute law from beings with little mercy for that sort of crap.
If they manage to get free and escape, congratulate them on their success and then end the game asking who is GMing next. Tell them that you were not having any fun gming for homicidal, sociopathic, psychopath characters and want to try something different.
Paladins, Inquisitors, Cavaliers and Arcanists ready to counterspell should make short work of them. Given what you have posted of their activities they are all definately evil by now and smite will make short work of them.
OP: Oh, this'd be a hoot. Nothing says "a$$whuppin'" like begging for one. Don't kill 'em ... oh, no, that'd be far too easy for 'em.
My take is that the players are testing your will. They seem to see someone, by your own admission, that's something of a pushover ... and they're pushing.
This is a time when you say "screw appropriate level encounters". They've gone and provoked a righteous smackdown. Best part, as others have said, is that they can be shipped off to Harrowstone pre-fire. There they can die horribly there after being maimed, tortured, branded, dunked into drowning pools and all kinds of fun stuff.
Have fun!
Switch games. Play Way of the Wicked. Your players are already in the right mindset.
... They're not playing evil; they're playing moron.
They are playing Chaotic Evil AND moron. Asmodeus hates that chaos and stupid part.
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it sounds like you asked your players "don't do this thing," and the gunslinger's player laughed in your face and did it just to screw with you.
It sounds like he's going to deliberately cause you problems no matter what you do as long as he's around.
If he's the problem, you need to really, actually consider just telling him he's no longer invited to your game.
Again, you're obviously trying to play two different games. If you enjpy playing with this group then accept that they're not heroic or wise and roll with it.
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Sorry, Drew, I stumbled on the thread a few hours ago. I hope you don't mind me posting a bit of player perspective to maybe turn the lynch mob towards some discussion that may be a bit less campaign ending.
First impressions of the town when we started the adventure was a place that generally appreciated the order that the Hellknight government offered but the majority of the citizenship was being driven to poverty through excessive taxes. We pretty much aligned ourselves with a local resistance group immediately so our interactions with the Hellknights was antagonistic from the beginning.
Due to the Hellknight influence the economy was rather out of whack to what we were used to on a metagaming level. Legitimately gained loot typically sold to merchants for about a quarter of listed value while needed items could be purchased at mark ups that sometimes exceeded 2000% (granted the 300 gp for 3 masterwork cold iron shurikens could have been an unintentional error). Pretty much for our first four levels it was loot the Spire to the ground and opportunistic stealing if we wanted any sort of gear that was beyond our ability to craft.
More generally I think we might not communicating with you as effectively as were earlier in the campaign and the initial struggle we had early on has led to a bit of a downward spiral. As early as level two I think everyone in the party had a sense that we were occasionally skirting some fairly dangerous lines with the Hellknights. I think part of the escalating violence can be attributed to the perception that lying is generally our most effective diplomatic tool and once that runs out we're in trouble.
I think the Kyton actually serves as a fairly good example of the mentality that we've fallen into. Yes it was being friendly and cooperative but due to communications barriers we didn't really know what its intentions were. I went along with slaying it but not just because the idea was tossed out there, it was because in the moment I felt that the party would be safer without the lawful evil outsider that was apparently allied to the Hellknights watching over our shoulder.
Anyway, I'm sorry because I didn't realize that we had started to antagonize you that much. I do hope that we can sort out a way so the campaign can be less stressful and more fun for you because I really have enjoyed the effort you've put into presenting everything.
I think I'll stay away from this thread at this point because if you do decide to start planning our demise (which could be an epic way to end the campaign) I'd like to be surprised. I will put out there though that about half a dozen of these dropped before an encounter followed by this spell around the second round of combat would likely shut down the bulk of the party's offenses for a short time.
ETA: Feel free to PM or email if you'd like to discuss any specific concerns outside the forum.
I'm sorry, man. But I'd be tempted to walk out on those jerks. My players don't always do what I expect them to, but we respect each other and don't take advantage of each other's natures.
I don't know these guys but I have an intense dislike of them. I've played with this type before and though some have said it's not a good idea I've come at them just as hard as they make themselves out to be. I've lost players over the years because of it, but I won't be walked on by anyone. Some might say that if they players are having fun then don't worry about it. But you don't seem to be having any fun at all, and a roleplaying game is a cooperative effort. All parties involved should enjoy the activity.
I could say a lot more but I'd just get warned or banned.