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I don't know what to do.
When my daughter was born, in 2008, I ran a Pathfinder Rise of the Runelords campaign, using the PF1 Beta, along with my girlfriend and some friends of us.
Life being what it is, my girlfriend and I broke up a few months later, the campaign fell too and with my new status of a separated father, tabletop RPGing wasn't in my priorities anymore…
But I never lost interest in Paizo or their Pathfinder universe. I always found the world of Golarion to be an interesting universe and I had sometimes bouts of nostalgia about "the old days".
13 years later, by pure happenstance, someone sold me the whole Rise of the Runelords card game and I thought I could introduce the world of Pathfinder to my daughter.
She loved it!
One night, she watched Stranger Things with me and saw the kids play D&D. She asked what it was and I told her that it was an RPG, a bit like the PF card game. And when I told her I once played myself, she eagerly asked if we could play.
Oh, what a joy to hear that!
So, I went to the hobby store and bought the PF1 Beginner Box… When my daughter asked if she could play a character like Lini the Druid with the Beginner Box's rules, I said that those rules were meant to be easily understood, so, no, it wasn't possible.
Seeing the disappointment in her eyes, I was a bit discouraged.
And then Paizo released the PF2 Playtest.
I decided to give the Playtest a shot and downloaded the PDF files, even printing the whole thing so I could read it. I had the terrible idea to check Paizo's forum to see the players' reactions. If I'm reading all this correctly, PF2 is sooooo bad that it marks the end of civilization (and Paizo's) as we know it.
Here's why I don't know what to do.
I know that in the social media world of today, people are rabidly lashing at anyone not having the same opinion (whether good or bad) as them and that haters often shout louder than anyone else, but all this bad reaction to PF2 shook me.
So, I'm asking you, the Pathfinder community, your objective opinion about what should I do:
- Should I stick with the Beginner Box and see if my daughter love RPG?
- Should I make an exception and let her play a Druid along with the Beginner Box rules?
- Should I invest myself in PF1 and make her play with the complete PF1 rules? or
- Should I give PF2 a chance, considering it's a "work in progress" and see for myself?
From what I read of PF2 so far, there's some things I like (the 3-Actions-per-Round, the Bulk rules, the four-tier Skills proficiency, the Ability Scores building method, the Hero Points).
And what's your objective opinion about PF2, knowing it's still a Beta (I don't want vehement replies to tell me "how crazy I am to want to try PF2 since it's so bad")?
IMHO, "Pathfinder 2nd edition" does not technically exist yet, only a rough draft. So you should introduce new players to PF1, optionally starting with the Beginner Box. Especially if they are completely new to RPGs.
And what's your objective opinion about PF2, knowing it's still a Beta (I don't want vehement replies to tell me "how crazy I am to want to try PF2 since it's so bad")?
My opinions are all theoretical as I haven't been able to participate in the playtest. While I have a long and ever-growing wishlist of potential changes, I think the playtest is overall pretty good and expect PF2e, when it comes out, to be quite solid. YMMV.
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You know her better than anyone here - I would say if you think she would not have problems adjusting to a set of rules that is in flux, I would say start with PF2 and help her make the kind of character she wants, taking the rules options that will put her closed to the way Link the Druid is represented in the card game. (I’m unfamiliar with the card game, so I don’t know if Lini is animal-companion specific, or if she is more into the whole “shapechange” thing.) The playtest rules are in flux, and WILL change, but at this point I really don’t think anything will change drastically about the framework (like getting rid of class feats or anything, nor wholesale changes to the Trained/Expert/Master/Legendary system, or anything like that.) What WILL change will be tons of tiny things that could be very frustrating for new players to keep track of.
If you think she might be thrown off by a rules set that is going to change in lots of little small ways, I would start with the beginner box, and adapt such Druid material from the full PF1 book as is needed to get her started.
I likely would not go full PF1 rulebook, because that’s a LOT of crunch at once — unless your daughter is a fan of subjects with a lot of minute detail. (some kids are developing software in C++ at age 9 or 10 - I don’t discount it.) if so, I don’t think she’d have a problem.
In the end though, since you know her best, you are the one to decide which system will give more fun. Just spending time with her and gaming with her is likely to make system irrelevant, anyway! :-)
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Don't forget that other RPGs exist. I don't just mean the Hasbro elephant in the room, either, there are plenty of games that are lighter on rules and bigger on flavour.
Depending on what your daughter's interested in, you might have a look at Mouseguard, Tales of Equestria or the Star Wars RPG, all of which are good and appeal to a certain audience.
I mean, I love Pathfinder, but simple it is not. There's no harm in starting her off with a game that fits her taste, and letting her decide whether she wants to graduate to the full complexity of Pathfinder once she knows more about the subject.
EdOWar did conversions of all the PF1 classes to Beginner Box rules.
This document includes the druid
Depending on what your daughter's interested in, you might have a look at Mouseguard, Tales of Equestria or the Star Wars RPG, all of which are good and appeal to a certain audience.
She's just out of her Little Pony phase, so I won't let her in it all over again! :)
I mean, I love Pathfinder, but simple it is not. There's no harm in starting her off with a game that fits her taste, and letting her decide whether she wants to graduate to the full complexity of Pathfinder once she knows more about the subject.
I know there's a lot of other RPGs out there, but since she already know Pathfinder from the card game, and that I do have a soft spot for the game, we'll go with it. :)
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EdOWar did conversions of all the PF1 classes to Beginner Box rules.
This document includes the druid
Ah! That's great! That is just what I needed to make up my mind! :)
And along with all your commentaries, I think we'll try the Beginner Box (with EdOWar's conversions) and if my daughter likes RPG, I could introduce her to PF2 afterwards, if she wishes it.
Honestly, though, and in light of what you've all written here, I can't see why so many people are so negatively heated like that about PF2. It's a Playtest for crying out loud and Paizo did try some new things (without changing everything drastically). They could've simply just released PF2 as a "final product" if they wanted so, but instead went with the Playtest and asked for the players' feedback. That means that things WILL change when the final version will be released.
As a general rule in life, I realized that's it's easier to make comments pass more easily if they're said constructively and not by shouting and bullying others around… To me it's common sense, but it seems that more and more people are forgetting it.
That must be my age showing up… :)
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Depending on what your daughter's interested in, you might have a look at Mouseguard, Tales of Equestria or the Star Wars RPG, all of which are good and appeal to a certain audience.She's just out of her Little Pony phase, so I won't let her in it all over again! :)
Phase?
:D
wait....
your daughter was born in 2008 and is now 13 years old?
if she's able to manage that, she'll manage the complexity of PF too
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She's just out of her Little Pony phase, so I won't let her in it all over again! :)
I can't let this comment stand without hinting at that Ponyfinder is a real thing and actually a pretty good setting.
:D
I had kinda the same problem introducing my kids into Pathfinder, because my son immediately took a liking to Lini as well and wanted to play a character like this. We were winging it pretty much at that time, but that was before the Beginner's Box was published, and we had also a lot of fun with that.
So yeah, I'd say that the Beginner's box is pretty much the way to go. I think the playtest format of PF 2 doesn't lend too well to introducing new players, especially when things are in flux right now and things might still change pretty much up to the official release.
When my daughter was born, in 2008, I ran a Pathfinder Rise of the Runelords campaign, using the PF1 Beta, along with my girlfriend and some friends of us.....13 years later
You're a time traveler! Can you tell us what the world is like in 2021? Who wins the superbowl next year?
1. Should I stick with the Beginner Box and see if my daughter love RPG?
2. Should I make an exception and let her play a Druid along with the Beginner Box rules?
3. Should I invest myself in PF1 and make her play with the complete PF1 rules? or
4. Should I give PF2 a chance, considering it's a "work in progress" and see for myself?
1. Never played it so I can't say for sure. But if she's 13 then I'd say no. I hated playing "kids" versions of games and would rather accept the increased difficulty and play the real one.
2. Why not?
3. Hell no. Core Rulebook only is the way to go with a new player. Someone tried getting me into 3.5e in 2009 and it failed miserably because they allowed every rulebook there was. They had much more success with PF1e a few months later.
4. I'm going to say yes. It's "easier" then PF1e (or more correctly: it's complicated in different ways). When the full rules come out she'll need to "relearn" them if you decide to migrate your game to them (assuming her interest it kept for a full 12 months) but the same would be true for PF1e to PF2e anyway.
Specifically about druids: PF2e ones seem easier then PF1e ones. As someone whose played a PF1e druid: I would not recommend it for a new player. I'd have no such qualms about a PF2e druid (mainly because PF2e fighters are as complicated as all hell).
And along with all your commentaries, I think we'll try the Beginner Box (with EdOWar's conversions) and if my daughter likes RPG, I could introduce her to PF2 afterwards, if she wishes it.
Late to the party, but i think that's an equally good decision.
My advice: If your daughter is still playing in 12 months time, there's no reason to rush to convert. You have 10 years worth of adventures and character options to explore. Feel free to remain in PF1e territory for years to come. When you start experiencing problems with the PF1e rules you can either houserule them (perhaps looking at PF2e or Pathfinder Unchained for guidance) or migrate to PF2e at that point.
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As a general rule in life, I realized that's it's easier to make comments pass more easily if they're said constructively and not by shouting and bullying others around… To me it's common sense, but it seems that more and more people are forgetting it.
That must be my age showing up… :)
No, just spoken like someone raising a child... :-)
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No, just spoken like someone raising a child... :-)As a general rule in life, I realized that's it's easier to make comments pass more easily if they're said constructively and not by shouting and bullying others around… To me it's common sense, but it seems that more and more people are forgetting it.
That must be my age showing up… :)
Exactly. :)
And, for what it’s worth, I really like the PF Playtest mechanics a lot. I’m pretty excited about the new iteration.
I've just go to say that you're awesome and are clearly raising your daughter right. Rock on, and I hope she enjoys the game.
I've never really looked at the Beginner Box, so I can't really say anything about that other than it likely would be a better choice than jumping right into the full game. It can be a complicated system. But again, you know her best and what level of complexity works for her. But I think John Lynch is right, if you go with the standard rules, it'd probably be best to start with just the core to avoid choice overload. Then you could add new books and options over time to ease into things without just dumping it all at once. Having the druid converted to Beginner Box rules does help if you go that route too. Letting her play the character she wants will probably help keep her interest and let her see that it's a game of possibilities.
As for the playtest, that's a really good question. I have my criticisms of the system as it exists now, but it's still early days of the playtest. The base of the system actually seems pretty good to me and the criticisms can be addressed with time. Ease of understanding and accessibility to new players was a design goal, so it might fit in with a young player. Although one of my criticisms is that the book layout and wording does seem a bit difficult to understand at times. And there is the point about it being an unfinished system that will be changing, and potentially rather rapidly. But there are things that are certainly simplified from PF1, the action system is rather nice instead of having all the things that can be done as standard actions, but not part of a full action and the like. The rough-draft and changing nature of the playtest might also make it best to just hold off and wait until it's finalized next year and go with the Beginner Box or PF1 core until then.
From the point of view of the playtest, having feedback from new to RPGs players, including young ones would probably be rather helpful, especially with the stated goal of improved accessibility. Although I doubt the playtest adventure is the best place to introduce a new player as it's designed to be a bit of a stress test more than an introduction. It might not be as fun as something that isn't intended to see where the system breaks. Especially if you are doing this as a one-on-one thing, it's really built for a 4 person party and some are reporting complete party wipes (although others like my group had no difficulty at all).
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I know that in the social media world of today, people are rabidly lashing at anyone not having the same opinion (whether good or bad) as them and that haters often shout louder than anyone else, but all this bad reaction to PF2 shook me.
You have two choices, then:
1) Conclude that these people are "haters", and go off seeking confirmation bias.
2) Entertain the possibility that a not inconsiderable number of players have rational reasons for determining that they don't like what Paizo is doing. (E.g., "easy" RPGs abound; PF1 was the one "rich & complex* system they had available.)
Neither of these, of course, has any bearing on what you or your daughter personally prefer.
wait....
your daughter was born in 2008 and is now 13 years old?
if she's able to manage that, she'll manage the complexity of PF too
I must be getting old… She was born in 2005, not 2008! :D
Oh my…
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I've been a Pathfinder Superscriber for years and have basically all the APs until the quality took a recent hit, so know I say this with reservation.
At the risk of drawing ire from other folks on the forums, you might want to consider 5e. It really is well designed from an introductory point of view.
For example - in combat, having just a single action to spend and being able to freely move and interact with objects without spending your 'action points' is just so much less stress on the brain than wrapping your heads around standard/move/swift actions (3.5/PF1e) or that readying or casting Magic Fang will take 2 actions while Summon Nature's Ally takes 3 (PF2e Playtest).
It also has "the label" so she knows she's playing the same game she saw on Stranger Things. I'd think moving to PF1e or PF2e would be a later step as both systems are more complex.
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I've just go to say that you're awesome and are clearly raising your daughter right. Rock on, and I hope she enjoys the game.
That’s also what I’m thinking! :):)
Considering all your comments (thanks, by the way!), and even though I spent a few hours printing all those 430+ pages of the Playtest (oh well, hello idle time reading!), I think I’ll stick with PF1 for the time being (starting with the Beginner Box and seeing from there where it leads us). And since I may have convinced my wife to try it too (and her only experience in RPGs was seeing someone play for hours when she was a teenager), a «Lite» version may be best suited for them.
Sticking with the PF1 Core Rulebook was also what I had in mind. I still have the RotL PDFs files somewhere and I might give that a try, even though we’re playing the card version of the Adventure Path and they may recognize a thing or two…
But don’t get me wrong, though. I’ve read a lot of stuff from the Playtest and I’m so far interested by the changes Paizo is making. I certainly like the concept of your character’s background having a effect on your abilities, the 3-Actions method (I could add that up in my PF1 game…), and the new method of generating the Ability Scores. I do have some concerns with the way the elements are presented in the book (it’s a bit complicated to sort things out correctly and you do have to flip back and forth through the pages at times) and the apparent absence of a surprise round, but we do have to remember that it’s a Playtest, and PF2, like Doktor Weasel said, will change (maybe drastically, maybe not) from the Playtest presented to its final form.