Being a skill monkey is expensive at first level

[Doktor Weasel]

Not a major thing, or even a complaint. Just an observation that being skill-focused can quickly eat up all your starting cash.

I built an alchemist for Doomsday Dawn, Part 1. I decided to be a bit of a skill monkey because we look like we won't have a rogue. So I took thievery (disabling traps will be nice), Medicine and Craft (both fit the theme and are signature skills. I figured I'd do some non-magic healing and repair people's damaged items). But the prices of the skill kits required for many skill rolls means I wasn't able to take them all.

• Alchemist's Tools 60 sp
  
• Healer's Tools 50 sp
  
• Repair Kit 30 sp
  
• Thieves' Tools 30 sp
  
• Writing Set (for dealing with a formula book) 15 sp
  
• Disguise kit 20 sp
  
• Artisan's Tools 50 sp
  
• Snare kit 50 sp

I wasn't interested in the disguise or snare kits, but they're there for completeness, and Artisan's Tools can probably wait until higher level.

Just the Alchemist's Tools, Healer's Tools and Writing Set take 125 out of 150 starting sp, and I see that as a pretty standard load-out for an alchemist. I took the Thieves' Tools instead of the Healer's because of the lack of rogue. The biggest ticket item are the Alchemist's tools. So for a rogue (the more typical skill monkey) they'd have more to play with. But things can still get expensive fast. And this doesn't include weapons or armor which can get pricey. Thankfully Alchemist gives you the Formula Book (10 sp) for free.

Like I said, this isn't really a complaint. I'm not sure that this is a problem, but it is something to be aware of and take a look at. It does make sense that tools can be expensive. But a multi-skilled character shouldn't be too prohibitive. I suspect that one level of adventuring would be enough get kits to accommodate the rest of your skills. Bulk could start to be an issue though. So mostly just a 1st Level Problem.

[Zwordsman]

Additionally.. actually carrying any number of these get near absurd.

Formula book is 1 bulkd
armour usually 1 bulk
alchemsit kit? 2 bulk

hell.. just to operate, with absolutely class required is 3 bulk for the kit and book.
Then.. armour because chances are you need it. 1 more bulk almost certainly.

Bulk for not encombered is 5+str.

So... it easily eats more than half just to carry basics class/life gear.
add in any other kits? Yup.

I wanted my alchemist, who uses a shield and thrown weapons (darts and a dagger)... kit, book, armour, that is 4 straight up. Add a shield, and weapons? well you hit 5 pretty easily.

So.. then we take things the alchemist make in the morning....
and anything dropped in game?
bulk has some problems really.

[JDLPF]

Don't carry bulky items into combat. Leave repair kits, books and non-essentials on a pack animal. Alternatively, get someone else in the party to carry them for you. I'm pretty sure the Barbarian and Fighter aren't near their Bulk limits.

As for costs, get others to buy some of the lesser stuff. Just because you're the one with the skill, doesn't mean you need to necessarily bear the full cost. Ask the party to share some of the cost. My 1st level Wizard bought a ton of gear, and still had silver left over to buy three scrolls and a potion.

[Zwordsman]

Leaving things behind gets squiffy.. Well for one. Alchemist Kit you HAVE to have with you for class abilities. Formula book is implied to. though not expressly stated.

Leaving things on pack animals well away is just asking to lose things, expensive things. Pack animals run from monsters, or people steal etc. Rarely do many games have a legitimate home base that you can frequent daily. Most of the time its stuff line.. random inns.

additionally there are plenty of times when one dives into caves, or ruins, or travel across the map where you can easily be ambushed.. or encumbered and extra slow.. just carrying actual class/skill required things.

As for other party members buying crap for you... what about ADHOC groups? Like what happens in pathfinder society?
or stories where the group don't know each other prior to the story?

I do think that this case the OP brought up, and the Alchemist in specific is a valid feedback to the Bulk system-class system interaction. Because it causes a quality of life issue for players from the get go.

[JDLPF]

I agree, it's good feedback! As a player, I'm the kind of person that always has some obscure item from a rulebook somewhere that happens to be the perfect tool for the job (what, you mean you didn't know a cold iron kunai can be used as a crowbar?) and I value the ability to carry a range of tools with me to suit the occasion. The bulk system has its merits, but there's also some failings as well.

I think that lowering the bulk of a few kits would go a long way towards solving this problem. Alchemist's tools in particular have a strong argument from a gameplay balance perspective to be reduced to at least 1 bulk if not lower.

[Doktor Weasel]

Yeah, I should have mentioned bulk a bit more than I did. For my alchemist I basically am, I think one light-item away from having penalties.

One big thing with bulk is lack of granularity. You go from Light to 1 and that's a factor of 10. Perhaps allowing things like 5L or 0.5 bulk might help. But that's basically going back to pounds but writing them differently. Except bulk and weight aren't quite the same thing, it includes size and awkwardness as well.

I just finished my second character, a 4th level dwarven fighter and had no trouble with money or bulk. Unsurprisingly. Between higher starting cash, starting items and an 18 STR, there was no issue.

[shroudb]

Don't forget your class is designed around buying starting weapon (you have no cantrips) and armor as well in level 1.

Alchemist kit and Vials in general needs a look through.

Both its price is absurd and its bulk for something a non-str class is supply to start with and carry around all the time.

Cost can stay if alchemist gets it for free like the formula book but but bulk needs to be toned down in everything Alchemy related

As an example, it's very reasonable to have more than 20 vials at level 10+,and those are +2 bulk from the get go.

Just imagine if preparing spells increased your bulk.

From a gameplay perspective it is nonviable.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

An alchemy kit should be something designed for Alchemists to wear, not carry, as they need to access one all the time. Then it would be eligible for the "less bulky if you're wearing it" discount armor gets. And I like the image of an alchemist with lab equipment draped all over him.

[Captain Morgan]

Zwordsman wrote:

Additionally.. actually carrying any number of these get near absurd.

Formula book is 1 bulkd
armour usually 1 bulk
alchemsit kit? 2 bulk

hell.. just to operate, with absolutely class required is 3 bulk for the kit and book.
Then.. armour because chances are you need it. 1 more bulk almost certainly.

Bulk for not encombered is 5+str.

So... it easily eats more than half just to carry basics class/life gear.
add in any other kits? Yup.

I wanted my alchemist, who uses a shield and thrown weapons (darts and a dagger)... kit, book, armour, that is 4 straight up. Add a shield, and weapons? well you hit 5 pretty easily.

So.. then we take things the alchemist make in the morning....
and anything dropped in game?
bulk has some problems really.

Is that actually a problem with Bulk? I've seen folks compare the gear to lifting capacity of low strength characters in PF1 and it is not pretty, even without stuff like an alchemist's lab. Bulk seems significantly more generous to such characters.

[magnuskn]

JDLPF wrote:

Don't carry bulky items into combat. Leave repair kits, books and non-essentials on a pack animal. Alternatively, get someone else in the party to carry them for you. I'm pretty sure the Barbarian and Fighter aren't near their Bulk limits.

As for costs, get others to buy some of the lesser stuff. Just because you're the one with the skill, doesn't mean you need to necessarily bear the full cost. Ask the party to share some of the cost. My 1st level Wizard bought a ton of gear, and still had silver left over to buy three scrolls and a potion.

The fighter I GMPC'ed yesterday was at 7,8 of his 9 bulk limit, while only wearing hide armor. So that is a "no", martials don't have a lot of space left, either. Then again, I didn't really use his backpack, so I guess I could have shaved off a few bulk that way.

[Weirdo]

Having to spend 3 bulk and 60sp on just the required items for his class (the alchemy kit and formula book) was certainly very limiting for our party's alchemist. He picked up thieves' tools as well since there was no rogue, but couldn't afford the price or bulk for the healer's kit.

Does a backpack increase bulk capacity? I thought it just let you store items up to 4 bulk so you didn't have to carry them in your hands.

[Zwordsman]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Is that actually a problem with Bulk? I've seen folks compare the gear to lifting capacity of low strength characters in PF1 and it is not pretty, even without stuff like an alchemist's lab. Bulk seems significantly more generous to such characters.

ah my example was more meant to be specifically alchemist and bulk. Not bulk in general.

Bulk as a system.. i personally kind of like. But. the pricing and bulk amounts of various things in game are a problem.

3 bulk+60sp auto required for the class is just a problem. I really think the formula book and the lab, should actually come as one piece, and for free with the class. The alchemist's requirement should NOT be the skill kit "alchemist' kit" It should be an alchemist specific item.

"the alchemists pieced together their own set of tools and notes, this counts as alchemist tools and formula book for the Alchemist, anyone else finds the tools incomplete and out of order, and must contend with the notes as per normal formula book (which would allow for writing them in code etc)"

THEN we have the normal alchemist kit, which lets be honest at that bulk and cost, is NOT kit. its a breifcase that folds out into a desk with tools at that point. This can be the skill item, that you can get higher level versions of, that give item bonuses to Craft Alchemy skills.
That way, any other player, can get it. and if the alchemist wants the Item bonus they could get it, and deal with the bulk and cost.

This would allow for all players, of any class, to be on equal footing regarding the problems with Kit sizes.

---------

All that said. i still think all kits should be L, or at absolute most, 1 bulk. just for sake of quality of life.
or hell, make them 5L or something

[shroudb]

Zwordsman wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Is that actually a problem with Bulk? I've seen folks compare the gear to lifting capacity of low strength characters in PF1 and it is not pretty, even without stuff like an alchemist's lab. Bulk seems significantly more generous to such characters.

ah my example was more meant to be specifically alchemist and bulk. Not bulk in general.

Bulk as a system.. i personally kind of like. But. the pricing and bulk amounts of various things in game are a problem.

3 bulk+60sp auto required for the class is just a problem. I really think the formula book and the lab, should actually come as one piece, and for free with the class. The alchemist's requirement should NOT be the skill kit "alchemist' kit" It should be an alchemist specific item.

"the alchemists pieced together their own set of tools and notes, this counts as alchemist tools and formula book for the Alchemist, anyone else finds the tools incomplete and out of order, and must contend with the notes as per normal formula book (which would allow for writing them in code etc)"

THEN we have the normal alchemist kit, which lets be honest at that bulk and cost, is NOT kit. its a breifcase that folds out into a desk with tools at that point. This can be the skill item, that you can get higher level versions of, that give item bonuses to Craft Alchemy skills.
That way, any other player, can get it. and if the alchemist wants the Item bonus they could get it, and deal with the bulk and cost.

This would allow for all players, of any class, to be on equal footing regarding the problems with Kit sizes.

---------

All that said. i still think all kits should be L, or at absolute most, 1 bulk. just for sake of quality of life.
or hell, make them 5L or something

to put it into perspectice, a PINT of oil is easier to carry than a single alchemist flask.

all alchemical items are L, while a PINT of a liguid is a -

I expect that the lachemist toolkit is 2 bulk instead of 1 like the other kits due to all this erroneous ideas that somehow a few mililiters of a liquid, in a glass container, are "bulkier" than stuff like arrows, pints of oil, etc

a single reduction to the kit to 1, and a reduction of alchemical items to -, wll make it much better:
1 for kit, 1 for book, 1 for armor leaves you with 2+Str bulk, enough for a weapon and a few L things more, and you wont have to worry that you can't actually prepare your daily allotment of items without being able to move.

[Zwordsman]

i'd honestly accept 1kit 1 book and the items being - based (though them being l isn't tooo horrific for me but it is still plenty problematic)

but a random thing i realized while looking up bulk and armours.
teh table assumes worn armour, carried armour is 1 bulk more.

So. the alchemist kit is the same as carrying around extra light armour by hand.

[shroudb]

Zwordsman wrote:

i'd honestly accept 1kit 1 book and the items being - based (though them being l isn't tooo horrific for me but it is still plenty problematic)

but a random thing i realized while looking up bulk and armours.
teh table assumes worn armour, carried armour is 1 bulk more.

So. the alchemist kit is the same as carrying around extra light armour by hand.

at level 1, when you are probably carrying around ~4 extra L items, the consumables don't seem much.

at level 10 where you will be carrying 15+ they are basically a +2 strength requirement to just cast.

just imagine the "pouch of materials" of the others spellcasters, or the holy symbols of clerics, going up by 1-2 bulk every few levels...