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I'll be adding to this as I find things. I encourage others to as well. NOTE: I don't actually think every balance concern should be fixed, but I want the designers aware of them.
1. Sleep (3rd) seems strictly better than Paralyze at the same level. Asleep is in many (but not all) ways a worse condition than paralyzed, and Paralyze only affects one humanoid target (vs. unrestricted 5' burst for Sleep).
2. Shapechange's limitation to forms of lower level polymorph spells you actually know. This is awful for spontaneous primal/arcane casters, and completely useless for the Aberrant bloodline sorcerer who receives it as a bonus spell but cannot actually learn any lower level polymorph spells to which it could apply - they're off list and not on his bonus list.
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Persistent (ongoing) damage is OP as all get out.
Requires a nat20 (once per turn, after taking damage) to resolve the condition (it otherwise has no duration). A Medicine skill check (at DC 15) reduces that to a flat 15 check (contrary to the Medicine skill's own description).
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3. Disjunction. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Why would I ever want to use a 9th level spell to take out a single magic item? Just delete this trap option so some poor fool doesn't take it.
4. Miracle, Wish, etc. Probably should specify that they ignore material costs for things like Raise Dead (assuming they do).
5. Let's look at level 1 Wizard school powers. Some should probably be be improved, and Mark shouldn't have claimed that autoheightening on these sorts of things made them a power level in between your best spells and your cantrips. That's not true of any of them even at low levels, and several are worse than a cantrip.
Abjuration (Protective Ward): [C] +1 Armor boost in a 10' radius, requires concentration, no heightening. Compares to shield, which has the same AC, the same action cost, but doesn't cost spell points, doesn't protect allies, and also gives you the shield block reaction.
Conjuration (Augment Summoning): [B] +1 to attack, AC, and saves for a summon as a free action when you summon a creature. A fine fire and forget, but your limitation here is going to be how many Summon Monster spells you actually will prepare and cast in a day. This makes your limited spells better, but doesn't stretch them out. No heightening.
Divination (Diviner's Sight): [A] I actually like this as it gives you some save insurance when it's not your turn, and insurance with a chance of extra jackpot if you're performing an attack roll (double that cantrip damage) or a skill check (get that knowledge roll to work). No heightening.
Enchantment (Charming Words): [F] Two actions to only make a target not attack you for one round, the party is still fair game (stunned on a crit fail, but don't plan for that). Bad action economy, no heightening.
Evocation (Force Bolt): [B] It's force damage, and the low damage at least autoheightens every level. But it's not that much better than a cantrip.
Illusion (Warped Terrain): [B] Creating 4 squares of difficult terrain to slow down approach lanes to you is decent, basically inflicting Hampered 10 on anyone approaching (or escaping) through it. The heighten to affect flying creatures is nice, too.
Necromancy (Call of the Grave): [C] This is theoretically a meh-to-decent debuff, but only if you coordinate with a party member to hit them before it wears off. You won't personally benefit unless you crit, and then not much. No heightening. Why not just cast Daze?
Transmutation (Physical Boost): [B] You can buff a friend trying a combat manuever. No heightening, and an inconsistent d4 roll will probably frustrate you, even if a 2.5 avg improvement sounds good. Yay?
Universalist (Hand of the Apprentice, Optional): [D] If you're a regular wizard why are you trying to deliver your melee weapon damage at short range via two actions? If you have a decent weapon proficiency in your build, don't you have something better to do with your two actions that doesn't use up a resource and a feat?
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The Swamp of Sloth power does not include the failure and success results for the save.
The Tanglefoot cantrip doesn’t list base duration, only heightened durations.
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My initial impressions are that a lot of non-damage spells are so limited in utility and/or duration, that they never justify the cost of the spell slot. A free use of a skill will get the job done better in many cases.
Example: Suggestion is a 4th level spell, and only has a duration of 1 minute on a failed save. Now the stipulation for it is not just that the target won't do anything self- destructive, but won't do anything not in it's self-interest. It's pretty bad if a 7th level wizard, at the hefty expense of a 4th level slot, can't get a target to inconvenience themselve for a minute. But a rogue or barbarian could most likely get the job done with simple intimidation.
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Color Spray seems even more overpowered than usual. There is no limit to how strong of an enemy it can affect and now the DC scales with your level so it doesn't matter that it's only a level 1 spell.
Color Spray seems even more overpowered than usual. There is no limit to how strong of an enemy it can affect and now the DC scales with your level so it doesn't matter that it's only a level 1 spell.
Yes, but they have to fail by 10 to get the old minimum affect of one round stunned. It's fine.
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DIVINE DECREE SPELL 7
Casting Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting
Range 40 feet; Area 40-foot aura
Duration varies
You utter potent words linked to your faith. Choose an alignment
your deity has (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful). You can’t cast this spell
if you don’t have a deity or your deity is true neutral. You deal 7d6
damage to creatures of that alignment in the area; each creature
must attempt a Will save. Creatures that match the alignment are
unaffected. Those that neither match nor oppose it don’t suffer
effects other than damage and treat their result as one degree better.
Bolded the part I think is an error - you deal damage to creatures of that alignment, but creatures that match the alignment are unaffected? I feel like this should read "creatures not of that alignment", or re-written to be "according to their alignment".
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GUIDANCE CANTRIP
Casting Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting
Range touch; Targets one creature
Duration until the start of your next turn or until dismissed
You ask for divine guidance, granting the target a +1 conditional bonus to one attack roll, Perception check, saving throw, or skill check the target attempts before the duration ends. The target chooses which roll to use the bonus on before rolling. If the target uses the bonus, the spell ends. Either way, it’s bolstered.
Also, guidance is extremely lackluster, especially with the bolstered line. Was that really needed?
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Also, guidance is extremely lackluster, especially with the bolstered line. Was that really needed?GUIDANCE CANTRIP
Casting Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting
Range touch; Targets one creature
Duration until the start of your next turn or until dismissed
You ask for divine guidance, granting the target a +1 conditional bonus to one attack roll, Perception check, saving throw, or skill check the target attempts before the duration ends. The target chooses which roll to use the bonus on before rolling. If the target uses the bonus, the spell ends. Either way, it’s bolstered.
Agreed, this needs single action, no bolstered, or maybe range to make it at all worthwhile. Single action and range are the changes I would make.
Let's look at 8th level Wizard school powers (4th power level). As we saw above, the 1st level intro powers are pretty weak, and that bonus feat for the Universalist looks pretty good by comparison. Will later options change that?
Abjuration (Energy Absorption): [A] Defense against elemental damage as a reaction. Good/reasonable action economy, good heightening, saves you other defenses against elemental damage, since you can adjust/tailor the type as it hits you.
Conjuration (Dimensional Steps): [C-] The initial range is bad, the heightening makes it meh later on, but what really hurts this is that it's a Somatic action and you're going to provoke if you use this to avoid provoking. So why bother? The PF1 version needed a nerf; no one needs this.
Divination (Vigilant Eye): [A] This has 10 times the duration of regular Clairvoyance, is the same level, and only takes two actions rather than a full minute to cast. But what really sells it is you can cast it on the other side of a door or wall (less than 1' thick) that you touch.
Enchantment (Dread Aura): [B] No heightening. This is a worse Dirge of Doom. You get it two levels later than the Bard, have to spend spell points to start and maintain it, and require an extra action to start it. But it's still a decent debuff on the enemies if you're close enough. The good news is your first school power is so bad you'll never use it, allowing enough points to use this for two whole fights per day. I say this needs free concentration, no spell points to maintain.
Evocation (Elemental Tempest): [B-/B] You do a small amount of damage to a melee attacker who hits you, assuming you cast an elemental spell and this first. Heightens to 2d8 per expended spell level at 6th, which is not terrible.
Illusion (Invisibility Cloak): [A-] Invisibility is always useful, and this heightens to the Improved Invisibility later. It would be an A+ if it didn't require concentration.
Necromancy (Life Siphon): [B+] Self healing while casting your specialty spells is nice; you'll be casting them often. But the amount isn't great.
Transmutation (Shifting Form): [B] I can see using this for Darkvision, Scent, or an emergency Swim speed, I guess. But it's not exciting.
Universalist (Universal Versatility): [C] You can pick a different 1st level school power every day, and even change on the fly at the cost of spell points. Diviner's Sight would be nice to have, and maybe Force Bolt, but this costs you two feats to get here. Just say no.
So overall the 4th level powers are pretty reasonable, and certainly better than the 1st level ones. But I don't think they provide a reason to pick a specialist rather than Universalist school. They're supposed to provide a boost over cantrips and extend your spells. I think the Illusionist, Diviner, and Evoker get there, as I can see regular use of those powers. The rest are afterthoughts.
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Agreed, this needs single action, no bolstered, or maybe range to make it at all worthwhile. Single action and range are the changes I would make.Also, guidance is extremely lackluster, especially with the bolstered line. Was that really needed?GUIDANCE CANTRIP
Casting Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting
Range touch; Targets one creature
Duration until the start of your next turn or until dismissed
You ask for divine guidance, granting the target a +1 conditional bonus to one attack roll, Perception check, saving throw, or skill check the target attempts before the duration ends. The target chooses which roll to use the bonus on before rolling. If the target uses the bonus, the spell ends. Either way, it’s bolstered.
Really, my opinion is bolstered is the biggest problem. You used to be able to have your low level cleric giving people little bonuses when they didn't have anything better to do pretty much every battle, and the target being bolstered after one use shuts down that basic usefulness.
The Tanglefoot cantrip doesn’t list base duration, only heightened durations.
Also, this part absolutely needs to be clarified before final print. By context, I'm assuming one round. But also, I shouldn't have to assume.
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Really, my opinion is bolstered is the biggest problem. You used to be able to have your low level cleric giving people little bonuses when they didn't have anything better to do pretty much every battle, and the target being bolstered after one use shuts down that basic usefulness.
Guidance spam was a very real and annoying issue imo
If it's optimal to just have it on everyone until you get into combat, you just need to kill the option. Either remove it, or give people a more intuitive way to get the bonuses.
As it stood, you basically had to count rounds between everything at low levels because there was no reason to not have guidance up on everyone at all times
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Bolded the part I think is an error - you deal damage to creatures of that alignment, but creatures that match the alignment are unaffected? I feel like this should read "creatures not of that alignment", or re-written to be "according to their alignment".DIVINE DECREE SPELL 7
Casting Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting
Range 40 feet; Area 40-foot aura
Duration varies
You utter potent words linked to your faith. Choose an alignment
your deity has (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful). You can’t cast this spell
if you don’t have a deity or your deity is true neutral. You deal 7d6
damage to creatures of that alignment in the area; each creature
must attempt a Will save. Creatures that match the alignment are
unaffected. Those that neither match nor oppose it don’t suffer
effects other than damage and treat their result as one degree better.
"SAME TEAM! SAME TEAM!"
I haven't really dug into the spells yet, but I happened to look at Power Word Kill, and I have concerns. I thought they were trying to tone down the insta-kill spells, but this one seems to be even stronger than in PF1: anyone 14th level or lower instantly dies, no save.
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Fear spell seems to be not worth its slot. Only a critical failure gets an actually useful result (fleeing target), and the mere save failure is just a meager frightened 2 that wears off fast. Considering other 1st level spell options, this one is not going to be used much. (Poor sorcerers who get it as bloodline one).
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Fear spell seems to be not worth its slot. Only a critical failure gets an actually useful result (fleeing target), and the mere save failure is just a meager frightened 2 that wears off fast. Considering other 1st level spell options, this one is not going to be used much. (Poor sorcerers who get it as bloodline one).
Fear 2 is useful if you coordinate with other team members who can take advantage of the full penalty before it starts to wear off. And you still get a -1 to their save on your next turn. Not useless by any means.
In the dinosaur form spell, basic version is +9 to damage, heightened-5 is +6 to damage, and heightened-7 is +18 to dmagae. The middle (heightened-5) number looks wrong.
Leng's Sting: It does 4d6 poison damage on a success, but on a failure the stage 1 condition only inflicts drain 1 (1 round), and on stage 2 only drained 1 and confused (1 round).
This is contrary to other poison spells in the book, compare to Spider's Sting and Purple Worm Sting, both of which also inflict the success poison damage at each stage in addition to debuff conditions. While drained in a bad condition, it also lingers even after the poison is cured, so this spell definitely needs to have poison damage every round to be worthwhile and consistent.
"Charming Words" lists the success-failure in the wrong order. It goes from failure to success, every other spell goes from success to failure.
It's unclear how 10th level slots interact with the Sorcerer/Wizard regular spells chart notation that bloodline and specialist schools provide you with one extra spell of any level that you can cast. As written it seems to allow them a bonus spell slot (not that most specialists can take advantage with the scarce options), but perhaps it was meant to be limited to only the baseline spells on those charts.
It doesn't seem ambiguous that the Wizard's arcane focus can be used to recast a 10th level spell, but perhaps that isn't intended.
The Tanglefoot cantrip doesn’t list base duration, only heightened durations.Also, this part absolutely needs to be clarified before final print. By context, I'm assuming one round. But also, I shouldn't have to assume.
Given that they're successfully entangled, does this also mean that in order to use their acrobatics/athletics check to remove the entangled condition, they still need to pass the DC5 flat check in order to perform their acrobatics/athletics check?
We also used context to infer that it lasted one round when I used it yesterday.
The Tanglefoot cantrip doesn’t list base duration, only heightened durations.Also, this part absolutely needs to be clarified before final print. By context, I'm assuming one round. But also, I shouldn't have to assume.Given that they're successfully entangled, does this also mean that in order to use their acrobatics/athletics check to remove the entangled condition, they still need to pass the DC5 flat check in order to perform their acrobatics/athletics check?
No, neither of those has the manipulate trait.
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The form spells (polymorph) have some issues and typos.
1) Some of the spells speak about "natural attacks" that are not described anywhewe, while all animals usually have unarmed attacks. Furthermore none of them has "unarmed" trait. This is important as some feats require a weapon attack (such as Savage Slice), so that its use with attacks with "unarmed" trait is prohibited.
2) There is no scent range specified anywhere, while scent rule p. 302 implies it does.
3) It looks strange that while being in the form you preserve old racial traits. I turn into an insect, but I am still human and humanoid by traits. Same for statistics: a huge tyrannosaurus with strength 10 (+0).
4) Plant form 6 level (heightened) damage did not get more dice, while the damage bonus was reduced.
5) Balefull polymorph. Unclear, how exactly the target is changed. So I transform a fighter into a frog. Does it still have 20 strength and 22+ AC? What about medium size and speed 25? Can it move or only make will saves?
6) Shapechange. It is not clear what exactly do we get. I can guess that it just copy the effect of the form spells from before.
So no Monstrocity Form, but what about heightened Dragon Form? Does heightenning to 8 spell level count against the restriction?
7) Animal form. All forms listed to have scent, it could be moved to the bullet with low-light vision. However a bull probably shouldn't have one (compared to shark and canine).
A shark without water brething is also strange.
Attack seems a bit low. While all other forms looks better than strength +6 attack, the animal form is less effective at class levels 5-6 (until heightened).
8) It is strange to see so many different spells with the same effect when others fully use heightening system. All of the form spells have the same text and only the numbers differ. All of them can be easily reduced to three spells:
Animal form (pest sounds rude and negative, all Druids hate you for this :-)) : harmless utility forms here.
Natural battle form (all those spells refer to battle form by the way) : all the animals without much magic here + plants
Supernatural battle form (this is for arcane spellcasters as they do get them) : dragons, elementals, monstrosity.
The two 10-level form spells remain separate as having heigher rarity, however I would also include Nature Incarnate into Natural battle form.
9) The Pest form. Note it is a level 2 spell and do not forget it. It is ridiculous now and looks more like debuff. Like balefull polymorpf. I would rather use it as debuff with all that speed 10, Athletics -4, weakness 5 and AC 13 (any level 1 through 20!), 1 attack damage and no ability to manipulate things.
So effectively you are restricted to only move actions. Then what about climbing (lvl 2 spell), swimming (lvl 3 spell), water breathing (lvl 2 spell for 1 hour, lvl 3 spell 8 hours and lvl 4 spell 24 houts!)? Note that all the normal spells can be used not only by yourself (water breathing even for 5 targets) and everybody remain fully functional.
Can we be glad that we still have senses? Yes you get low-light vision, but Darkvision is lvl 2 spell and lasts 1 hour. Scent could be good, but the range is not specified. I couldn't find any sign of the scent range value except in Shifting Form spell.
So, do we need 10 Stealth that badly (sneaking with speed 5 ft)? Not really. Furthermore, invisibility is level 2 spell. It has less duration, but do not need checks and you are not restricted to only move.
The duration is ok for 2-lvl spell. But even fly has 1 hour variant (and the speed is better). Yes the druid has a feat (!) that allows you to spend 2 (!) form uses to have 1 hour duration. But the spell is avaliable for other classes! Not every druid will take this feat and not every druid even has 2 wild shape uses at 10 level.
So the spell needs more movement types (restrict their use in wild form entry for 1-2 class levels), speed, more duration (at least 1 hour at 7 spell level to match fly).
No, neither of those has the manipulate trait.The Tanglefoot cantrip doesn’t list base duration, only heightened durations.Also, this part absolutely needs to be clarified before final print. By context, I'm assuming one round. But also, I shouldn't have to assume.Given that they're successfully entangled, does this also mean that in order to use their acrobatics/athletics check to remove the entangled condition, they still need to pass the DC5 flat check in order to perform their acrobatics/athletics check?
I suppose the next question is whether the check to remove entangled is an immediate one-time check, or if they can continue to make the checks each round when the spell is heightened if they fail the initial check.
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3. Disjunction. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Why would I ever want to use a 9th level spell to take out a single magic item? Just delete this trap option so some poor fool doesn't take it.
4. Miracle, Wish, etc. Probably should specify that they ignore material costs for things like Raise Dead (assuming they do).
5. Let's look at level 1 Wizard school powers. Some should probably be be improved, and Mark shouldn't have claimed that autoheightening on these sorts of things made them a power level in between your best spells and your cantrips. That's not true of any of them even at low levels, and several are worse than a cantrip.
Abjuration (Protective Ward): [C] +1 Armor boost in a 10' radius, requires concentration, no heightening. Compares to shield, which has the same AC, the same action cost, but doesn't cost spell points, doesn't protect allies, and also gives you the shield block reaction.
Conjuration (Augment Summoning): +1 to attack, AC, and saves for a summon as a free action when you summon a creature. A fine fire and forget, but your limitation here is going to be how many Summon Monster spells you actually will prepare and cast in a day. This makes your limited spells better, but doesn't stretch them out. No heightening.
Divination (Diviner's Sight): [A] I actually like this as it gives you some save insurance when it's not your turn, and insurance with a chance of extra jackpot if you're performing an attack roll (double that cantrip damage) or a skill check (get that knowledge roll to work). No heightening.
Enchantment (Charming Words): [F] Two actions to only make a target not attack you for one round, the party is still fair game (stunned on a crit fail, but don't plan for that). Bad action economy, no heightening.
Evocation (Force Bolt): [B] It's force damage, and the low damage at least autoheightens every level. But it's not that much better than a cantrip.
Illusion (Warped Terrain): [B] Creating 4 squares of difficult terrain to slow down approach lanes to[/b][/b]...
Agreed, Wizard school powers are too weak. They need to be STRONGER than a cantrip. For casters, a cantrip (which you can use EVERY TURN) is the baseline ability. If I have a special ability that costs my finite spell points, it needs to be at least as good if not better than a cantrip, otherwise why cast it?
It's important to look at opportunity costs. Since you can always cast a cantrip with 2 actions (mostly), then any ability that uses 2 or more actions and thus prevents you from casting your cantrip or another spell must provide at least as much value as the cantrip. You are sacrificing your cantrip to use that ability. Most of the wizard powers as written aren't worth sacrificing a cantrip for.
I wish the school powers were more like Dirge of Doom (which is a SUPER COOL cantrip) that can be used to combo with other spells.
Cantrips, by the way, are an awesome improvement over PF1.
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Cantrips, by the way, are an awesome improvement over PF1.
And they're still bad.
Sure, they're better than they used to be, sure you can use them forever without running out, but they're still (regularly) a worse idea than a cross bow.Also, it's the rare (attack) spell that has a range greater than 30 feet. I haven't tried to find an exhaustive list, but Ray of Frost (60) and Acid Arrow (120) are the only two I've come across.
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Cantrips, by the way, are an awesome improvement over PF1.And they're still bad.
Sure, they're better than they used to be, sure you can use them forever without running out, but they're still (regularly) a worse idea than a cross bow.Also, it's the rare (attack) spell that has a range greater than 30 feet. I haven't tried to find an exhaustive list, but Ray of Frost (60) and Acid Arrow (120) are the only two I've come across.
Yeah, I couldn't believe that in the The Lost Star live stream the wizard/sorcerer was toting a crossbow to get shots in between spells. A caster should NEVER need to carry a ranged weapon because they can't cast a spell with their last action. There needs to be 1 action cantrips to fill in the action economy.
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There need to be more 1 action spells period.
Heck, one that does one third the standard damage (e.g. for every 3 dice a spell gets, this one gets 1) I'd use that as a single-action damage spell. It wouldn't be very efficient, slot-wise, but I'd at least consider using it. Especially as something I can do while maintaining concentration on two other spells (say...summon monster and bless? Spiritual weapon and bane?)
Note: 1/4 scaling is what cantrips are, and they're ever so slightly behind the scaling on melee weapons when you factor in potency runes
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Occult Sorcerer power Tentacular Limbs is largely incompatible with the occult spell list. There are very few touch-range offensive spells on the occult list. Definitely not enough to make the power worthwhile IMO.
The only 1 action cantrip I have seen used so far is shield, which is not a bad "I have one action left so I improve my AC" spell.
And then on round two you have an action you don't know what to do with.
(Also, casters should never need to rely on the Shield spell...if you are in melee, you've done something very very wrong)
The only 1 action cantrip I have seen used so far is shield, which is not a bad "I have one action left so I improve my AC" spell.And then on round two you have an action you don't know what to do with.
(Also, casters should never need to rely on the Shield spell...if you are in melee, you've done something very very wrong)
Uh...it works on ranged damage, too. And short spell ranges don't allow you to stay out of Stride, Stride, Strike range of very many enemies.
Oh, sure, it does. And sure, stride-stride-strike is a thing.
But good party composition and placement prevents that sort of thing.
Just as I'm the only person to never get shot in a Shadowrun firefight (because I took cover...) I play my wizards as the soft squishy meatbags they are: I stand somewhere where the fighters will be dragging aggro and between me and the Big Scary Thing.
Cantrips, by the way, are an awesome improvement over PF1.And they're still bad.
Sure, they're better than they used to be, sure you can use them forever without running out, but they're still (regularly) a worse idea than a crossbow.Also, it's the rare (attack) spell that has a range greater than 30 feet. I haven't tried to find an exhaustive list, but Ray of Frost (60) and Acid Arrow (120) are the only two I've come across.
I find it a bit difficult to see how a spellcaster would be better served using a crossbow than offensive cantrips.
At 1st level, the the crossbow might seem to have an advantage (spellcasters are trained in simple weapons and spell rolls, and the crossbow does 1d8 compared to the spell's 1d4, unless you've got Ray of Frost) but targeting touch AC when the spellcaster's accuracy is going to be shaky anyways seems to favor the cantrip.
Once you gain a few levels, your cantrips gain power and begin to deal far more damage than the crossbows, as they get more dice and add your spellcasting ability modifier to the damage. At mid-to-higher levels, the difference in proficiency between your spell rolls and crossbows makes the cantrips a no-brainer.
At 1st level, the the crossbow might seem to have an advantage (spellcasters are trained in simple weapons and spell rolls, and the crossbow does 1d8 compared to the spell's 1d4, unless you've got Ray of Frost) but targeting touch AC when the spellcaster's accuracy is going to be shaky anyways seems to favor the cantrip.
If things are that close in power I'd still prefer a crossbow.
Whiiiich also has a range of 120 feet, which is 4 times greater than nearly all spells.
AND I can either load or fire the crossbow with my 3rd (otherwise) wasted action. I can't split a cantrip the same way.
Once you gain a few levels, your cantrips gain power and begin to deal far more damage than the crossbows, as they get more dice and add your spellcasting ability modifier to the damage. At mid-to-higher levels, the difference in proficiency between your spell rolls and crossbows makes the cantrips a no-brainer.
You can buy magically enhanced crossbows. They do the same or better damage due to the way runes work and scale compared to cantrips. A +1 weapon rune is 4th level treasure, meaning you'll have it at 5th level. At 5th level you also get 3rd level spells.
2d8+1 at DEX+1 vs. AC
or
1d8+INT at DEX+0 vs. TAC
How about a +2 weapon? 8th level treasure, you'll have it at 9th along with your 5th level spells.
3d8+2 at DEX+2 vs. AC
or
2d8+INT at DEX+0 vs. TAC
Still in favor of a crossbow.
Ok, ok, a +3 weapon. Maybe finally cantrips will catch up? This is pretty high level now, 13th! 7th level spells! Expert Spellcasting!
4d8+3 at DEX+3 vs. AC
or
3d8+INT at DEX+1 vs. TAC
I rest my case. +4 weapons come online along side 9th level spells (at 7th) along side Master spellcasting, +1 added to both sides of the equation.
BUT THEN +5 weapons show up with no comparable increase to the cantrip! Well, we get the +1 from Legendary spellcasting on the to-hit side, but damage stays the same (4d8).
Personally, I find spamming Daze or Tanglefoot to be a better use of my cantrips than a crossbow.
Tanglefoot? The spell that doesn't in any way hinder melee types (the ones most likely to eat your face)?
No, Tanglefoot the spell that reduces the movement speed of any enemy whose positioning you want to controlPersonally, I find spamming Daze or Tanglefoot to be a better use of my cantrips than a crossbow.Tanglefoot? The spell that doesn't in any way hinder melee types (the ones most likely to eat your face)?
The one with a range of 30 feet that slows people by a mere 10 feet of movement? A good portion of your melee types will be impressed with your inability to prevent them from getting to you (and that's at max range, at a target 10 feet away it does nothing).
Sure it might cost them an extra action, but a second attack is pretty crap anyway. Not as garbage as a third attack, but far enough from a sure thing that most people are like "well, it's not complete garbage, but I'll probably miss."
and gives them a 25% chance of failing any manipulate action they attempt.
Manipulate: a trait that melee actions don't have.
Considering that tanglefoot bags used to literally glue people to the ground, this is almost not even worth the effort.
