The half-elf and half-orc entry feats should have rebalanced options

[Colette Brunel]

The half-elf and half-orc entry feats could stand to be rebalanced somewhat. They are no Natural Ambition, but that is an immense outlier and quite possibly the single strongest ancestry feat in the entire game.

The skill training and the low-light vision are just about right as potential options.

The half-elf's +5 speed is really quite good, and possibly the single best option on offer.

The half-orc's +2 hit points should, at the very least, be turned into "+2 or half your level, whichever is higher," making it half of Toughness.

The extra languages are ribbons at best, particularly since Elven or Orc could be selected as a starting language anyway. I think that these could stand to be replaced by some other flavorful minor benefit appropriate to half-elves and half-orcs, though I could not suggest anything myself.

[Rysky]

Colette Brunel wrote:

I think that these could stand to be replaced by some other flavorful minor benefit appropriate to half-elves and half-orcs, though I could not suggest anything myself.

Maaaaaaaaybe actual fully detailed Ancestries instead of Feat Taxes :3

[Ragnavald Urgirson]

Rysky wrote:

Colette Brunel wrote:

I think that these could stand to be replaced by some other flavorful minor benefit appropriate to half-elves and half-orcs, though I could not suggest anything myself.

Maaaaaaaaybe actual fully detailed Ancestries instead of Feat Taxes :3

This, it is a sad half-orc who cannot get proficiency in greataxe until 4th level due to bad feat taxes.

[Aldarc]

Rysky wrote:

Colette Brunel wrote:

I think that these could stand to be replaced by some other flavorful minor benefit appropriate to half-elves and half-orcs, though I could not suggest anything myself.

Maaaaaaaaybe actual fully detailed Ancestries instead of Feat Taxes :3

Agreed. I am already poised to drop my group's feedback on this.

[CorvusMask]

I still don't think half orcs and elves count as feat tax, but honestly I wouldn't mind them becoming their own race based on current presentation. I mean, if they are human exclusive heritage,(aasimars and tieflings could at least be applied to all races) then it'd be cool if elves and orcs had "half human" heritage instead.

Another thing I would like is multiple different half orc and half elf heritages.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think the issue with the half-x options being perceived as a "feat tax" is mostly a consequence of "how strong the human feats are".

"+5' speed and low light vision" seems weak for a feat next to "an extra class feat" but probably doesn't next to "+2 to the DC to shove you" or "+2 to downtime activity rolls" or "can talk to burrowing animals" or "can make survival checks in a city."

I am not certain that it's the best idea to balance "humans get the least from their ancestry" against "humans have the best ancestry feats."

[Andy Brown]

Ragnavald Urgirson wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Colette Brunel wrote:

I think that these could stand to be replaced by some other flavorful minor benefit appropriate to half-elves and half-orcs, though I could not suggest anything myself.

Maaaaaaaaybe actual fully detailed Ancestries instead of Feat Taxes :3

This, it is a sad half-orc who cannot get proficiency in greataxe until 4th level due to bad feat taxes.

Yeah, this.

"I've never been able to use a greataxe before, but suddenly I know what I'm doing. Must have been because I watched great-grandma use one before I left home"

[BretI]

Andy Brown wrote:

Ragnavald Urgirson wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Colette Brunel wrote:

I think that these could stand to be replaced by some other flavorful minor benefit appropriate to half-elves and half-orcs, though I could not suggest anything myself.

Maaaaaaaaybe actual fully detailed Ancestries instead of Feat Taxes :3

This, it is a sad half-orc who cannot get proficiency in greataxe until 4th level due to bad feat taxes.

Yeah, this.

"I've never been able to use a greataxe before, but suddenly I know what I'm doing. Must have been because I watched great-grandma use one before I left home"

Better than that, you get your choice between proficiency or dark-vision!

Half-orcs can no longer start the game with dark vision.

[TheLoneCleric]

Can someone explain how taking the half-ancestry feats twice work? I'm having a hard time groking it.

[rooneg]

TheLoneCleric wrote:

Can someone explain how taking the half-ancestry feats twice work? I'm having a hard time groking it.

The second time you take it you just get the two options you didn't pick the first time. So if you picked up vision and movement the first time the second time would get you the language and diplomacy proficiency.

[Kalindlara]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the issue with the half-x options being perceived as a "feat tax" is mostly a consequence of "how strong the human feats are".

I can tell you that has nothing to do with it for me. I haven't even seen the human ancestry feats yet.

[Arachnofiend]

Kalindlara wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the issue with the half-x options being perceived as a "feat tax" is mostly a consequence of "how strong the human feats are".

I can tell you that has nothing to do with it for me. I haven't even seen the human ancestry feats yet.

Agreed. How strong Natural Ambition is is completely irrelevant to this conversation. The problem is that nobody sets out to make a Human and decides that some extra health and improved vision would be useful to have so they paint themselves green. You start with the intention of being a half-orc.