The serpentine bloodline has the ability Serpentfriend, which grants a viper familiar.
At 3rd level, you can use speak with animals at will with reptilian animals (including various forms of dinosaurs, lizards, and other cold-blooded creatures), and you gain a viper familiar using your sorcerer level –2 as your effective wizard level.
If a serpentine sorcerer had the Improved Familiar feat, would it be applicable here? I know that it has to be a viper familiar, but the list of improved familiar options includes familiar, celestial/entropic/fiendish/resolute/etc. The minimum level for all of these templated familiars (except clockwork) is 3rd.
Could the sorcerer take a viper familiar, and apply one of the templates to it?
A celestial/whatever viper is still a viper AFAICT, so that should be fine (once you get to 5th level).
Yes. For that matter, you can use Improved Familiar without any unusual restriction. It doesn't have to be a templated viper--though that's certainly the most thematic.
For that matter, you can use Improved Familiar without any unusual restriction. It doesn't have to be a templated viper--though that's certainly the most thematic.
I disagree. The ability to get a familiar at all specifies a viper. There's no reason for getting Improved Familiar to remove that restriction.
Improved Familiar adds to your list of options and doesn't require you have access to any specific list of familiars before increasing the list. It may be a bit too much in some cases, such as opening up the swarm monger's list, but a expanding the list of otherwise normal familiars shouldn't be too big a deal.
All familiar-gaining classes are restricted to a list; some simply have shorter lists than others. The test of Improved Familiar is worded specifically to add to whatever list you normally have:
When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you.
Without explicit text in serpentine bloodline preventing the expansion of its familiar list, I can't rule out taking a pipefox or something.
The serpentine bloodline also doesn't have explicit text restricting you to vipers when you replace your familiar without the Improved Familiar feat---it only says that you gain a viper familiar when you hit that level. Can you dismiss it and acquire a hedgehog? Or do we read "you gain a viper familiar" as "you gain a familiar, but can only ever choose a viper"? Because in the latter case I think the specificity of serpentfriend wins over the more general Improved Familiar.
You could not acquire a hedgehog, as that wasn't added to your list, but you could acquire a celestial hedgehog, as that was added to your list.
As far as specificity, bloodline abilities and feats generally diverge in specificity, so neither is more specific than the other.
You could not acquire a hedgehog, as that wasn't added to your list, but you could acquire a celestial hedgehog, as that was added to your list.
No, that's not what I was asking. Assume you do not have Improved Familiar. Your serpentfriend ability gives you a viper familiar. You then dismiss it and acquire a hedgehog familiar, on the grounds that serpentfriend doesn't explicitly say you're stuck with vipers for all time, just that the familiar you gain at level-up is a viper. Kosher?
What blahpers is saying is that it like is this:
Wizard (original list): Bat, Rat, Cat, Raven, Viper (etc.)
Serpent Friend (original list): Viper.
Either can get and replace based on their original list. With the serpent friend, this is indeed a short list.
After improved familiar, both lists are added to with things like Imps and Faerie Dragon and Elementals, and both can get or replace based on that new, expanded list.
Personally, as a DM I would probably require an improved familiar to match the original theme and as a player I would choose that as well, but by the rules themselves that isn't a requirement.
Oh, I understand what blahpers is saying; I just disagree with it. To take that interpretation you need a reading of serpentfriend so literal that you could ALSO use it to trade your initial viper in for a hedgehog immediately because it doesn't say you can't. If we use a reading that literal we are being absurd. If we don't read it literally, then it clearly means for you to be stuck with vipers for all time, regardless of "list expansion."
Oh, I understand what blahpers is saying; I just disagree with it. To take that interpretation you need a reading of serpentfriend so literal that you could ALSO use it to trade your initial viper in for a hedgehog immediately because it doesn't say you can't.
But he (and I) aren't saying that.
You can't trade your viper for a hedgehog because your list is still just viper. Unless and until you have something to expand your list, your list isn't expanded.
IF there was a different feat, say "Hedgehog Familiar" that said "when choosing a familiar you can now choose a hedgehog as well as any other familiar that is available to you" and you took that feat, then a hedgehog familiar would be available to you. It adds choices.
That is what improved familiar does.
What is this "list" you speak of? Serpentfriend doesn't mention a list, it just says you gain a viper familiar. That's all it says. It doesn't say you're restricted to vipers in the future. Therefore you can trade one in for a hedgehog.
Prove me wrong.
And we're done.
Judging by intent, serpent friend seems like you are only supposed to have serpents, but the language is weak to that effect.
Improved familiar has its own intent to increase the options that you can choose for your familiar, and it's worded with much stronger language than serpent friend.
Fuzzy, you are 100% wrong.
The rules don’t have to say you can’t do something, because unless the rules say you CAN do something, you can’t. The rules don’t say that Serpentine Bloodline Sorcerer can replace their familiar with a hedgehog, so they can’t.
Sure they do. Read the rules on familiars. You can pick anything you like from the normal list whenever you change familiars. Serpentfriend contains no language explicitly changing this except for the initial viper.
Now, if you take authorial intent into account, then of course you can't replace the viper with a hedgehog... even a celestial one. It's absurd to think you can do that within serpentfriend's authorial intent, with or without Improved Familiar.
Judging by intent, serpent friend seems like you are only supposed to have serpents, but the language is weak to that effect.
Improved familiar has its own intent to increase the options that you can choose for your familiar, and it's worded with much stronger language than serpent friend.
Which leaves us the options of (a) forgoing authorial intent on the grounds that they didn't use enough words, or (b) embracing authorial intent and rejecting the notion of non-viper serpentfriend familiars ever.
There's also the issue of specific trumps general. Serpentfriend only get serpents as familiars is the general case. Improved Familiar adds its list of familiars to the options you can choose, which is the specific case.
Combine that with the fact that serpentfriend doesn't even bother including actual language limiting you to serpents, and there is no real reason to rule that the serpentfriend can't take whatever improved familiar he wants.
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Personally, I think a reasonable ruling would be to allow reptilian Improved Familiars (which would cover a celestial viper or dragons such as the pseudodragon or faerie dragon) but not non-reptilian Improved Familiars (such as a lyrakien azata).
Nothing in RAW suggests this solution, but it preserves the flavour of the archetype while still allowing some familiar choices that are more interesting than just a templated viper.
There's also the issue of specific trumps general. Serpentfriend only get serpents as familiars is the general case. Improved Familiar adds its list of familiars to the options you can choose, which is the specific case.
Heh. I like to invoke specific-trumps-general too, but I see serpentfriend, which specifies one archetype's familiar, as more specific than Improved Familiar, which operates on a wide variety of classes.
Combine that with the fact that serpentfriend doesn't even bother including actual language limiting you to serpents, and there is no real reason to rule that the serpentfriend can't take whatever improved familiar he wants.
Again, authorial intent matters, because if we dismiss it here we get absurd results as indicated previously. (Not that "you got a celestial hedgehog via serpentfriend?" isn't pretty silly by itself.) I agree that the author was lazy on this one, but I don't think that's a good reason to make the ability broader than it's meant to be.
Improved familiar made sure to use additive language though, which is so specific as to require something to specifically deny it, to keep it from applying. “When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed below are also available to you.” That’s super specific.
But there is also an FAQ precedent involving shaman. They have text saying, “The new spirit animal must be of the same sort of creature as the previous one.” But the FAQ clearly states that “you can take Improved Familiars for class-granted variant familiars like a shaman’s spirit animal”. The only way this ruling makes sense is if improved familiar ignores the normal limitations of your familiar selection.
But there is also an FAQ precedent involving shaman. They have text saying, “The new spirit animal must be of the same sort of creature as the previous one.” But the FAQ clearly states that “you can take Improved Familiars for class-granted variant familiars like a shaman’s spirit animal”. The only way this ruling makes sense is if improved familiar ignores the normal limitations of your familiar selection.
Well, the FAQ trumps my arguments. Serpentfriend with celestial hedgehog is a Go!