OK, tracking creatures via scent must be more easy, than just tracking them, right? I saw that explanation in other threads about scent: "Oh, it's so amazing, it's much easier to do!"
But I can see one little problem here...
The DC of the trail is greater by +2 every HOUR past.
So, the DC for a dog to follow the trail of a smelly guy after 24 hours will be just... 58! It's fine!
And for ordinary tracking it will be... +1 for every 24 hours! So, 11 (In normal situation)
Am I missing something?
Well yes, no, maybe :D
The base DC may not start at 10 for tracking without Scent. The surface conditions do not matter for Scent (very soft vs hard etc.). Likewise visibility is out of the equation for Scent, not so much for using vision.
But yes Scent is nice early on but will in general get passed up by 'normal' vision based tracking. Do the same equation Tracking someone attempting to hide their trail over hard rocks during an overcast night with rain vs very soft ground on a sunny day whose making no attempt to hide their tracks. How the DM sets up the nature of the pursuit will heavily influence which might work best and the difficulty overall.
Yes, I understand, but it is ridiculous, that you can not hunt somebody with dogs after 12 hours. Dogs have scent, and even with specially skilled dog you'll get +6 on survival. 12 hours = +24 on DC, and even if starting DC is 0 (I suppose, you can not set it on -40, right?), the dog only tracks it on 18+.
from the SRD:
SRD wrote: Scent (Ex)(universal monster rules)
This special quality allows a creature to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.
The creature can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range.
When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source’s location.
A creature with the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom (or Survival) check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10 (no matter what kind of surface holds the scent). This DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Survival skill. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.
SRD wrote: Scent (special ability)
This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.
The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
A creature with the Survival skill and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Survival check to find or follow a track. A creature with the scent ability can attempt to follow tracks using Survival untrained. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Survival skill in regards to tracking. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.
Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.
Water, particularly running water, ruins a trail for air-breathing creatures. Water-breathing creatures that have the scent ability, however, can use it in the water easily.
False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Survival DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10.
SRD wrote: Survival (Wis) (from skills, snipped parts not needed)
You are skilled at surviving in the wild and at navigating in the wilderness. You also excel at following trails and tracks left by others.
Several modifiers may apply to the Survival check, as given on Table: Survival DC Modifiers. (tables snipped)
Common Uses
Follow Tracks
To find tracks or to follow them for 1 mile requires a successful Survival check. You must make another Survival check every time the tracks become difficult to follow. If you are not trained in this skill, you can make untrained checks to find tracks, but you can follow them only if the DC for the task is 10 or lower. Alternatively, you can use the Perception skill to find a footprint or similar sign of a creature’s passage using the same DCs, but you can’t use Perception to follow tracks, even if someone else has already found them.
You move at half your normal speed while following tracks (or at your normal speed with a –5 penalty on the check, or at up to twice your normal speed with a –20 penalty on the check). The DC depends on the surface and the prevailing conditions, as given on table.
Action A Survival check made to find tracks is at least a full-round action, and it may take even longer.
Retry? For finding tracks, you can retry a failed check after 1 hour (outdoors) or 10 minutes (indoors) of searching.
So, these quotes show that the DC with scent will always start at 10, while tracking by sight starts at 5 under best conditions. Also, remember that tracking takes a movement penalty of half speed without a survival penalty, so you would also be able to move faster at the dog's speed. Since this goes in one mile increments, it would remain the same DC to continue tracking unless you are able to make up ground on the quarry (and losing ground makes it harder each hour). Retries after failure cost you a one hour increment penalty. Tracking without scent also carries a -1 per hour penalty, so you still have to add that in with all the other terrain penalties too. Groups of dogs could be trained for this purpose under handle animal, one dog is the "bloodhound" while the remainder are assisting. It is a bit of a trade of, but in general, the dog still has the better chance until a couple of days have gone by.
Intresting, but still a 5th ranger with scent better track somebody with ordinary tracking, than with scent, which is odd :(
Pretty much.
Lots of creatures have the scent quality, but a bloodhound or similar trailing dog ought to be particularly excellent at it, as they've been known to follow trails several days old. Unfortunately, Pathfinder doesn't have built-in support for such a talent.
blahpers wrote: Pretty much.
Lots of creatures have the scent quality, but a bloodhound or similar trailing dog ought to be particularly excellent at it, as they've been known to follow trails several days old. Unfortunately, Pathfinder doesn't have built-in support for such a talent.
Indeed I worked with a lady who did search and rescue work with her dog who was specifically trained to look for cadavers. She knew of dogs capable of following a trail of someone who got in a car and drove off ... she said they could follow such a trail with a car moving upwards of near 30mph. The rules don't begin to cover what such a trained animal is capable of ... it is a game and not a tracking simulation. But as a GM go nuts if you want to.
Kayerloth wrote: blahpers wrote: Pretty much.
Lots of creatures have the scent quality, but a bloodhound or similar trailing dog ought to be particularly excellent at it, as they've been known to follow trails several days old. Unfortunately, Pathfinder doesn't have built-in support for such a talent.
Indeed I worked with a lady who did search and rescue work with her dog who was specifically trained to look for cadavers. She knew of dogs capable of following a trail of someone who got in a car and drove off ... she said they could follow such a trail with a car moving upwards of near 30mph. The rules don't begin to cover what such a trained animal is capable of ... it is a game and not a tracking simulation. But as a GM go nuts if you want to. You need a dog handler that knows what they are doing. Yes dogs can follow a trail several days old but can they do consistency? Can any dog do it consistency?
Its my understanding that dog trainers have debates about how well dogs can follow a scent that is at least a day old
I'm just telling you, that a character with survival 15 AND scent does not benefit from scent while tracking AT ALL :)
well Scent is trumpeted by novices as a way to detect invisible creatures. It's not very accurate.
Scent will add to survival in the long run as it improves your statistical chances of success. Tracking a creature is not necessarily the path to getting a meal (success at survival).
I'd agree that the game model is rough and does not model the accuracy of a 'tracker' dog very well or service dogs that use scent and queues to detect seizures in patients or detect drugs in baggage. Ahh well...
Lord Lupus the Grey wrote: I'm just telling you, that a character with survival 15 AND scent does not benefit from scent while tracking AT ALL :) With scent don't you ignore surface conditions and poor visibility? That isn't a benefit?
huggin wrote: Lord Lupus the Grey wrote: I'm just telling you, that a character with survival 15 AND scent does not benefit from scent while tracking AT ALL :) With scent don't you ignore surface conditions and poor visibility? That isn't a benefit? You DO NOT ingroe, you use DIFFERENT RULES, where you ger +2 to DC for every hour, not +1 DC for every 24 hours :)
I think his point was the different rules don't factor in surface conditions rather than "ignore"
Cavall wrote: I think his point was the different rules don't factor in surface conditions rather than "ignore" Think this is a matter of perspective or semantics. They use different rules because visual cues do not matter nor does the surface, like with my car anecdote. Just change that to wagon or horse instead of car. For example, the kidnappers rode off with the infant princess in that direction ... . The rules under Scent specifically state: "Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility." (copy and paste from the post above quoting Scent by Thedmstrikes). I believe it's more a note to the GM to keep in mind what sort of things might modify the outcome depending on how the Tracker is doing his tracking.
Lord Lupus the Grey wrote: huggin wrote: Lord Lupus the Grey wrote: I'm just telling you, that a character with survival 15 AND scent does not benefit from scent while tracking AT ALL :) With scent don't you ignore surface conditions and poor visibility? That isn't a benefit? You DO NOT ingroe, you use DIFFERENT RULES, where you ger +2 to DC for every hour, not +1 DC for every 24 hours :) sure but your previous claim was demonstrably false. if the trail is <10 hours old on hard ground, or less than 5 hours old on firm ground, tracking with scent is easier. if the creatures being tracked are smaller than medium, it gets harder for to do without scent. if they are particularly smelly, tracking with scent gets easier.
you seem to want scent to be better in all conditions. i'm not sure that's realistic. it should probably be better than it is, but to say that scent provides no benefit to someone with survival 15 is false, QED.
Kayerloth wrote: Cavall wrote: I think his point was the different rules don't factor in surface conditions rather than "ignore" Think this is a matter of perspective or semantics. They use different rules because visual cues do not matter nor does the surface, like with my car anecdote. Just change that to wagon or horse instead of car. For example, the kidnappers rode off with the infant princess in that direction ... . The rules under Scent specifically state: "Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility." (copy and paste from the post above quoting Scent by Thedmstrikes). I believe it's more a note to the GM to keep in mind what sort of things might modify the outcome depending on how the Tracker is doing his tracking. It was less a matter of semantics and more a matter of stop typing all caps to people about something that's likely about semantics.
Which is to say, I was trying to be like "hey guy no need to shout"
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