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I still think my feat that gives half dex mod to crit threshold idea would satisfy the most players. Dex based character are getting a damage boost in a way that's thematically and mechanically different from Str characters. And it doesn't punish characters that want both dex and str.
Hmm half is the only thing I don't like cause it seems kind of strange to half the value and then all the odd values become worth less. So when you say crit threshold in other words if I had a +4 dex bonus I would only have to score 8 (since its halved) above my targets ac to crit right? so if I got dex to hit technically I'm adding dex 1.5 times for my to hit but only when determining crit?
I still think my feat that gives half dex mod to crit threshold idea would satisfy the most players. Dex based character are getting a damage boost in a way that's thematically and mechanically different from Str characters. And it doesn't punish characters that want both dex and str.Hmm half is the only thing I don't like cause it seems kind of strange to half the value and then all the odd values become worth less. So when you say crit threshold in other words if I had a +4 dex bonus I would only have to score 8 (since its halved) above my targets ac to crit right? so if I got dex to hit technically I'm adding dex 1.5 times for my to hit but only when determining crit?
Yeah you've got it right. I figured straight dex mod would be a bit op. And since they haven't previewed anything for increasing critical chance like in 1e with keen or improved critical and thematically dex and crit fit together in my mind.
I worded it as reducing the crit threshold because in 2e it seems like they really want to remove floating bonuses. So it'd be easier to remember that oh I crit on ac + 8 rather than: I get half my dex bonuses added to my attacks but only for crits.
Yeah your wording is probably better but I just said it that way so I could make sure I was understanding it right.
Also to be clear: This feat would only work when you are using Dex to attack, and adding Str to damage. So no boosting str high as possible and then just getting enough dex to take this feat to make those crazy two hand crit builds like the falchion 1e builds.
Not gonna lie, reducing the crit range doesn't really help all that much, it increases the dpr a little but it still forces dex players to build str. In addition to making the crit range wierder, it makes it harder for the gm to remember that they have an ability that reduces the crit range for them, and they have to calculate.
Also reducing the crit threshold would also increase the chance of crit failures as well, so it'd have to be a bonus +x for seeing if you crit. This pushes it onto the player to remember this for every attack and adds a second step in their attacks.
Player: I swing at the ogre for 21.
Gm: You hit, roll damage
Player: wait, I have a 23 for the purposes of criticals, do I crit?
Gm: no, go ahead and roll damage.
I mean it doesn't increase dpr "a little" it increases it quite a bit. Especially if you're using a deadly weapon that gains extra damage on criticals (rapier has this I believe).
It wouldn't increase the chance of crit failures? it's only changing the threshold for critical success on attacks.
And it wouldn't be so much on the player, but just reminding the GM that your crit chance is better at the start of the session. I don't think this would take more than 2 sessions to get used to. The GM already has to check if the player beat the AC by 10 before counting a crit, so they just have to subtract a bit from that number when a dex based character is attacking.
"it still forces dex players to build str"
that's the point. str characters still need a little dex for their AC. So dex based characters should need a little str for their damage. You shouldn't be able to ignore either without consequences.
As a general rule, I think it gets pretty complicated, especially if there are any ways to get temporary boosts or penalties to dex, but there might not be any of that in the game. I could definitely see this as an optional rule, but I don't think it is the optimal and easiest rule to use to replace finesse striker.
Edit: I do think that this rule would significantly increase DPR based off dexterity without giving Dex to damage.
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It's not really a rule as much as a feat. I think there are more complicated feats in the game than that for sure. I mean Power Attack in 1e is definitely way more complicated.
here's the scenario: when they first get the feat whenever player rolls decently high and is pretty sure they broke their AC by a bit. They remind the GM their Crit threshold is X less. The GM who can easily tell what the normal crit threshold is (it's just 10 more.) can subtract from that half the player's dex mod, which should be pretty static, I don't expect there to be many temporary round/minute long dex buffs in the game. If the player beat that then they crit. Really don't think it's too much harder than factoring flat footed, or other conditions.
It's not really a rule as much as a feat. I think there are more complicated feats in the game than that for sure. I mean Power Attack in 1e is definitely way more complicated.
here's the scenario: when they first get the feat whenever player rolls decently high and is pretty sure they broke their AC by a bit. They remind the GM their Crit threshold is X less. The GM who can easily tell what the normal crit threshold is (it's just 10 more.) can subtract from that half the player's dex mod, which should be pretty static, I don't expect there to be many temporary round/minute long dex buffs in the game. If the player beat that then they crit. Really don't think it's too much harder than factoring flat footed, or other conditions.
I could see it existing as a feat since that goes the whole optional route.
If this feat existed, what would your recommend happen to the Finesse Striker class ability?
It's not really a rule as much as a feat. I think there are more complicated feats in the game than that for sure. I mean Power Attack in 1e is definitely way more complicated.
here's the scenario: when they first get the feat whenever player rolls decently high and is pretty sure they broke their AC by a bit. They remind the GM their Crit threshold is X less. The GM who can easily tell what the normal crit threshold is (it's just 10 more.) can subtract from that half the player's dex mod, which should be pretty static, I don't expect there to be many temporary round/minute long dex buffs in the game. If the player beat that then they crit. Really don't think it's too much harder than factoring flat footed, or other conditions.
I could see it existing as a feat since that goes the whole optional route.
If this feat existed, what would your recommend happen to the Finesse Striker class ability?
My idea was a replacement to all dex to damage since I don't like how it's identical to strength. So maybe Rogues get this feat for free at level 1?
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I still think my feat that gives half dex mod to crit threshold idea would satisfy the most players.
As with the OP, I don't think any solution is going to satisfy 'most' people. While it's an interesting idea, much like the idea Vidmaster7 had. It's quite a bit more complicated than what you're trying to replace. This is especially true if the game sports other abilities that alter the crit range. I still haven't seen anything that replaces the simplicity of replacing a stat with another: it's a simple concept anyone can figure out with minimal math. Start adding multiple modifiers to multiple attacks and it's going to flummox people.
With the way ability scores are now generated, and how even they are, I do not see the need, want to do more damage with a weapon, get your Str higher, deal with it.
I'll turn this around: if stats are so easy to get and you do not NEED a feat to hit with dex and still do good damage, then there isn't a reason NOT to have a dex to damage feat a it's not unbalancing anything as the person using the option is down a feat and the person that didn't had no problem competing without it. Win/win.
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Dire Ursus: while it's an interesting idea, much like the idea Vidmaster7 had. It's quite a bit more complicated than what you're trying to replace. This is especially true if the game sports other abilities that alter the crit range. I still haven't seen anything that replaces the simplicity of replacing a stat with another: it's a simple concept anyone can figure out with minimal math. Start adding multiple modifiers to multiple attacks and it's going to flummox people.
With the way ability scores are now generated, and how even they are, I do not see the need, want to do more damage with a weapon, get your Str higher, deal with it.I'll turn this around: if stats are so easy to get and you do not NEED a feat to hit with dex and still do good damage, then there isn't a reason NOT to have a dex to damage feat a it's not unbalancing anything as the person using the option is down a feat and the person that didn't had no problem competing without it. Win/win.
I know that for myself, the Finesse Striker class feature for the Rogue does not appear overpowered as a class feature, and is relatively straight-forward, but that is dependent on it being limited by class and by weapon, and, since it is mandatory, it kills off one sixth of potential attribute variance for an entire class.
If you make it a feat, everyone gets access to it and it is seriously detrimental to the monk class. (For the record, I think the biggest mistake here is the design of the monk class to focus on STR and DEX with the option of having WIS as a tertiary feat, but that seems much more of a challenge to fix). We will have to wait to see just how unbalancing it would be to the monk, but from the way in which DEX to Damage has been so carefully restricted by the developers, it seems likely that letting it slip out of "rogue-only" or to include weapons with a damage die or potential damage die greater than D6 is going to be unbalancing to the game.
The rogue needs some kind of damage boost to keep up in combat, and, probably, sneak attack alone is not enough since it is designed around being a situational bonus that might factor in about 50% of the time at level 1, increasing to 80-90% of the time as the character levels up and focuses feats, skills and attributes on making it their primary strategy. Rogues need something else to boost their non-sneak attack damage or else they are going to spend 50% of their time at low-levels feeling useless (1d6 damage with your primary attack is minion level), which means few players will play them to the point where they are better able to shine.
My personal hope, before the Rogue reveal, was that sneak attack was going to be something like a scaling accuracy bonus, and the rogue's ability to use dexterity to hit lethal spots on their enemy was going to look like them being able to use finesse weapons to get critical hits more frequently than other characters, but only with weapons that did less base damage. Then I wanted the rogue feats to be a lot of crit activated debilitating strikes with the more status-effect ones incentivizing a focus on INT or CHA abilities and damaging ones available for a STR-based rogue that wanted to prioritize raw damage dealing. These abilities wouldn't require SA to work, but sneak attack would make them work more often, as would using finesse weapons (since the rogue gets a +2 DEX as a class ability) but less-so trying to attack more often with agile weapons or two-weapon attacks. A STR-based rogue might still try to prioritize number of attacks, but every other rogue would be much happier moving into position, and using a 1 action trick to get a +5-20% chance of getting a crit (possibly more) than taking a second or third attack that might not even have a chance of hitting critically (Targeting an AC of 17 with a -4 for example).
But it didn't happen that way.
This means the rogue is probably more focused on raw damage dealing as a class than giving out status effects, and all rogues need a little more damage boost or the class is going to be dead in the water.
I am still leaning towards a scaling flat damage bonus as a better solution than a mandatory Dex to Damage option, but I have seen some creative efforts here to come up with other ideas.
The trick is that there are so many interconnected pieces that an idea that might work to give the rogue Dex to Damage as an option might be game breaking else where and impossible for us to evaluate before we see why the developers have restricted it so much for the play test.