A DEX-to-Damage Proposal that should make everyone happy


Prerelease Discussion

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The title should read: "that should make most people happy", of course.

Let me preface this proposal with the considerations in mind when formulating it:

1. DEX-to-damage should be an option. I don't find it necessary for the game, but there's enough traction and history behind it that it should be present in some way.

2. DEX-to-damage should a General Feat available at 1st level. It should be a General Feat to allow any class to take it. As it affects character development and could be integral to some concepts, it should be readily available at 1st level for players to pick it up.

3. DEX-to-damage should have a cost. If DEX-to-damage were a General Feat with no other caveats, the opportunity cost of it would be very low. Sure, you have less damage potential than a STR character. But damage is a very narrow dimension. By focusing fully on DEX and eschewing an ability score completely, the DEX-to-damage character is presented with many more choices and narrative power, as a high STR score cannot compete with a mental score in terms of versatility.

4. DEX-to-damage should not be appealing to every single Finesse user. This is a personal take, but I do believe that mixed scores should have their own reward. STR 14/DEX 18 is as much as a character expression as STR 10/DEX 18, and it shouldn't be punished by making it unviable in every way.

With this in mind, I present you Finesse Striker, the General Feat:

FINESSE STRIKER
Feat 1
General, Combat
When you attack with a finesse melee weapon, you may add your Dexterity modifier to damage instead of your Strength modifier. While using this feat, any attacks you make beyond the first take an additional -1 penalty to your attack roll.

Now, wording on the second part might be wrong, but you get the idea – it's reverse agile.
What does this General Feat accomplish?

1. It enables DEX-to-damage from 1st level to every single class.

2. It's penalty isn't massive, but provides a real choice. Those who want DEX-to-damage to make a single, precise hit should find the Feat perfect. Those who want to be wild slashers need to consider pros and cons, and I'm sure both decisions could be valid depending on player goals.

With this feat, I could see 4 martial archetypes arising, each distinct and with enough interesting things to each own!

A) The Tower – STR 18+, DEX 10~. This guy goes full hog on STR, leaving their Reflex saves exposed and losing out on several skills, but having higher damage potential and more mental skills or HP to spare. For example, a metal-clad Paladin who wants to focus on developing CHA/WIS to be a better negotiator.

B) The Striker – STR 16/18, DEX 12/14. This girl misses out on the mental skills, but enjoys higher damage potential without endangering their Reflex saves and DEX skills. For example, a ranger who wants to still be a good sneak without losing combat potency.

C) The Shredder – STR 12/14, DEX 16/18. This guy wants to go with Finesse, but they don't want to be worse at hitting subsequent attacks – they want to be good at barrages of quick strikes specifically. For example, a monk who wants to be able to lay down some Fist of the North Star action.

D) The Piercer – STR 10, DEX 18+. This girl doesn't want to go for the trophy to the highest damage, but she wants to have good damage output among her many tools. For example, the cunning rogue who spends actions readying for the perfect Sneak Attack.

Discuss!


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Strength to AC should be an option.


Maybe the DEX-to-damage feat should require 16 STR.


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Interesting Idea. I'll try and run some numbers but I like the way you're thinking. I am not sure if characters get a general feat at first level however.

EDIT: Depending on how Combat Maneuvers work the piercer could do a lot of feint and stab or something like that to fish for criticals.


Meophist wrote:
Maybe the DEX-to-damage feat should require 16 STR.

Maybe 14 strength to give you up to +4 from Dex, 16 or 18+ could give unlimited. Still wrapped into a single feat.


All dex to damage did in PF1 was encourage X to Y stacking in order to single stat your character. If Dex to damage came in a package with multiclassing across classes that had no stat based synergy, then I'd probably accept it. Otherwise it only serves to undermine whatever balance there is behind the stats. So if it shows up in a gish archetype, cool, I'm all for it; though I'd prefer the caster stat to be the damage bonus instead. I still much prefer combining dex and strength into a single stat if there's an expectation that any dex based character would be able to use their dex for damage.

Basically, if dex to damage is needed, then stat balance should be revisited.

But you're asking about your proposal, not the concept itself. A -1 to hit is substantial for a bonus that will be dwarfed by damage dice as levels progress. You need to make sure that the ability functions at low level when dex to damage would matter, and reducing to-hit by one when you're too low level to have methods of recouping that loss isn't a good plan.

Something simple like "If you begin your turn in an unthreatened square, you can apply dex rather than strength on all melee attacks with a <whatever> weapon." would work well enough.


ErichAD wrote:

All dex to damage did in PF1 was encourage X to Y stacking in order to single stat your character. If Dex to damage came in a package with multiclassing across classes that had no stat based synergy, then I'd probably accept it. Otherwise it only serves to undermine whatever balance there is behind the stats. So if it shows up in a gish archetype, cool, I'm all for it; though I'd prefer the caster stat to be the damage bonus instead. I still much prefer combining dex and strength into a single stat if there's an expectation that any dex based character would be able to use their dex for damage.

Basically, if dex to damage is needed, then stat balance should be revisited.

DEX-to-damage is not needed. This system allows MAD characters to work really well.

But there's a large vocal part of the fanbase that wants it. And thus, an option should appear.

Quote:
But you're asking about your proposal, not the concept itself. A -1 to hit is substantial for a bonus that will be dwarfed by damage dice as levels progress. You need to make sure that the ability functions at low level when dex to damage would matter, and reducing to-hit by one when you're too low level to have methods of recouping that loss isn't a good plan.

It works perfectly for making a single hit. If you make more than one, you have a small, but noticeable downgrade.

At later levels, it's felt as much as it hits accuracy. However, you can build to compensate for it, which is what makes an engaging character.

Liberty's Edge

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Personally, I would find this deeply unsatisfying and thematically off. The Agile weapons a Dex-based character uses are typified by lower penalties to iteratives rather than higher ones to reflect their speed. Getting rid of that on the characters most invested in being fast/agile seems pretty counter to the themes the players in question are likely going for.

I'm personally gonna wait and look at the math before suggesting a solution, though I do tend to agree that one is needed that both makes this an option, as well as not making it strictly superior to Strength builds.

In short, I agree more or less with your problem analysis but think the solution has some thematic issues.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Personally, I would find this deeply unsatisfying and thematically off. The Agile weapons a Dex-based character uses are typified by lower penalties to iteratives rather than higher ones to reflect their speed. Getting rid of that on the characters most invested in being fast/agile seems pretty counter to the themes the players in question are likely going for.

I'm personally gonna wait and look at the math before suggesting a solution, though I do tend to agree that one is needed that both makes this an option, as well as not making it strictly superior to Strength builds.

In short, I agree more or less with your problem analysis but think the solution has some thematic issues.

Note I chose -1 so it didn't negate the benefit of agile weapons – only reduced it.


Secret Wizard wrote:

1. DEX-to-damage should be an option. I don't find it necessary for the game, but there's enough traction and history behind it that it should be present in some way.

2. DEX-to-damage should a General Feat available at 1st level. It should be a General Feat to allow any class to take it. As it affects character development and could be integral to some concepts, it should be readily available at 1st level for players to pick it up.

3. DEX-to-damage should have a cost. If DEX-to-damage were a General Feat with no other caveats, the opportunity cost of it would be very low. Sure, you have less damage potential than a STR character. But damage is a very narrow dimension. By focusing fully on DEX and eschewing an ability score completely, the DEX-to-damage character is presented with many more choices and narrative power, as a high STR score cannot compete with a mental score in terms of versatility.

4. DEX-to-damage should not be appealing to every single Finesse user. This is a personal take, but I do believe that mixed scores should have their own reward. STR 14/DEX 18 is as much as a character expression as STR 10/DEX 18, and it shouldn't be punished by making it unviable in every way.

#1 I agree

#2 Ditto.
#3 It does, a feat. With the new way stats are doled out, it's not single stat focused anymore.
#4 why? A good option is appealing no matter if you take it or not if it's made right. With the shift to multiple dice damage, no stat dumps and capped stats, the stat just isn't as much of a factor as it was. If we're looking at a that goes up to 5d8, it's 2 extra damage for a feat. That sounds like a fair trade off.

So I'm going to be one of those that disagrees that it's a proposal that makes me happy.

Liberty's Edge

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Secret Wizard wrote:
Note I chose -1 so it didn't negate the benefit of agile weapons – only reduced it.

It only leaves any benefit at all on third attacks, and that a mere +1 on a terrible attack. And then there's the unpleasantness that it inflicts on a rapier user...

Really, it just doesn't make me happy at all.


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I genuinely want some feats that give you cool stuff when using dex-to-hit and str-to-damage just to up the opportunity cost of dex-to-damage.

Also some cool stuff for str builds defensively for the same reason.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
And then there's the unpleasantness that it inflicts on a rapier user...

I'm kind of okay with rapiers being *the* dex and str weapon, to be honest... just because these are four-foot long blades with an offense based on lunging and punching through whatever you're pointing at. Noodly armed folks need not apply. Pure dex folks should stick to daggers and kukri and the like.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I genuinely want some feats that give you cool stuff when using dex-to-hit and str-to-damage just to up the opportunity cost of dex-to-damage.

Also some cool stuff for str builds defensively for the same reason.

I generally think that the 'cool' thing for keeping up dex and strength is the benefit of using either stat to hit and damage if either stat is lowered/damaged/drained/ect. This is especially important if alchemists can make free poisons and some of those lower stats.

As for cool defensive str options, I thought that's what heavy armor was.


Secret Wizard,
I like what you are trying to do here - I too think it'd be cool for the game to have awesome incentives to prioritize non-dichotemous ST/DX scores and avoid systems of mutual exclusion (as you mention your experiences with 5E have shown you), but I have to agree that this current solution goes against the "feel" of what it is trying to solve.

Sorry my feedback is only negative here - if I had positive feedback (ie. a suggestion or somesuch) I would propose it.

Instead I'll continue to admire the problem with you.

Cheers.


A -1 to attack isn't a barrier to entry so no your suggestion isn't making everyone happy. The new game also hasn't come out yet so we don't know how impactful the ability scores will be. There be other side effects we aren't even aware of.


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graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I genuinely want some feats that give you cool stuff when using dex-to-hit and str-to-damage just to up the opportunity cost of dex-to-damage.

Also some cool stuff for str builds defensively for the same reason.

I generally think that the 'cool' thing for keeping up dex and strength is the benefit of using either stat to hit and damage if either stat is lowered/damaged/drained/ect. This is especially important if alchemists can make free poisons and some of those lower stats.

As for cool defensive str options, I thought that's what heavy armor was.

This... might be one of the most pointless suggestions I have ever seen. No one is going to keep STR and DEX maxed out at the expense of all other stats (which I'm not even sure is possible with PF2 character generation) on the off chance that you get dex-drained and your strength is temporarily higher.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
ErichAD wrote:

All dex to damage did in PF1 was encourage X to Y stacking in order to single stat your character. If Dex to damage came in a package with multiclassing across classes that had no stat based synergy, then I'd probably accept it. Otherwise it only serves to undermine whatever balance there is behind the stats. So if it shows up in a gish archetype, cool, I'm all for it; though I'd prefer the caster stat to be the damage bonus instead. I still much prefer combining dex and strength into a single stat if there's an expectation that any dex based character would be able to use their dex for damage.

Basically, if dex to damage is needed, then stat balance should be revisited.

DEX-to-damage is not needed. This system allows MAD characters to work really well.

But there's a large vocal part of the fanbase that wants it. And thus, an option should appear.

I'm not sure [b] is a strong enough argument on its own. There's a difference between the virtue of listening to the target demographic and using that feedback to inform game design decisions, and the mistake of just giving people everything they ask for thoughtlessly.

I personally would like the option for Dex-to-damage (and int-to-damage for magi) but I am not a game designer, and if the game designers (in their far more informed opinion) think that fulfilling my wish would be bad for the overall game, then I actually want them to exercise their creative control and say no to me.

Liberty's Edge

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Personally, I'd be fine with Int or Cha to damage (preferably your choice) instead of Dex to damage (weapon restricted in the same way). It gives a bonus to a non-Save stat, while allowing character archetypes that focus away from Str to benefit.

The big issue with enforcing the Dex/Str characters (by not having Dex-to-damage) is that it mechanically disincentivizes clever or charming Dex-based characters (which is a real and important character type that should be available). Allowing people to pick which of those two options they get makes Dex-based combatants strongly incentivized to be good at Str, Int, or Cha, dealer's choice. Which is all I really want.

If I was actually doing it, I'd have it be a General Feat and then give Rogues the choice between getting it for free and getting some other benefit. Right now I'm thinking Medium Armor Proficiency (a real boon to Str primary Rogues) or maybe an Exotic Weapon Proficiency for Dex/Str Rogues to take advantage of. You could easily have all those as options, of course.


Hmm random idea: what if we increased the penalties from making multiple attacks slightly but then dexterity reducded the penalties in addition to adding to his with a finesse weapon.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Hmm random idea: what if we increased the penalties from making multiple attacks slightly but then dexterity reducded the penalties in addition to adding to his with a finesse weapon.

That sounds... really bad. The multi-attack penalty is already really punishing, and Dex is already the best stat. The game doesn't need even more reasons to prioritize Dex.


hmm then remove it from to hit entirely for that.


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If it’s a first-level general feat, only humans can take it at first level. Everybody else has to wait until third level. I think the most broadly available and earliest it could be made available would be a first-level archetype dedication feat.


1. An option for some.

2. No, it shouldn't.

No need to go further.


Since the Demi-Rogue Archetype grants Sneak Attack IIRC, perhaps a Duelist Archetype will grant Finesse (or Cunning) Striker for Dex/Int to Damage with Finesse weapons.

I wouldn't take the OPs proposed feat over building a Rogue. But I've also built as many Str-Based Swashbucklers as Dex-based ones.

A single feat for Finesse Striker is already a little too high a cost. The feats they've presented are much, much better than the average PF1 feat (even including the Extra [feature] feats).


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Dex to damage shouldn't be in the game. It looks like they are making it much easier to make a well rounded character. I believe you can have 3 16s at level 1 with the right build and when you advance your ability scores you get to boost 3 instead of just one, with advancing lower ones easier.So it's not much of a cost for a character to get some strength at least to 14 if they want some damage.

I'm fine leaving it as just Rogue can take it, as they are usually weaker in melee but if it's available to other classes I feel it will just be too strong.


Secret Wizard wrote:
-snip-

If the feat is limited to Agile weapons, it's balanced as it is due to the math being more tight, and weapon damage being a more significant factor (of which Agile has less of):

Level 1 Fighter with 18 Strength and a Greataxe versus Level 1 Rogue with 18 Dexterity and two Shortswords (presumably with Agile).

1D12+4 Versus 1D6+4 means on average, the Fighter is still doing 3 more damage per hit, and with Power Attack (since the Rogue won't have a feat to spend on Double Slice for the feat of Dexterity to Damage with Agile weapons), jumps to 2D12+4 (or heaven forbid he attacks twice and hits with 2D12+8), for an average of 17 (or 21 with two attacks).

If the Rogue attacks with one of his Agile weapons for 1D6+4, he only does 7.5 damage (compared to the average 10.5 of the Fighter's single attack), with a follow-up attack for the same damage (jumping to 15 compared to the Fighter's 17 Power Attack or 21 two-attack regime), though he is more likely to hit with two attacks than the Fighter is due to how Agile weapons work. Of course, the Rogue with 14 Strength could instead take Double Slice, and do 2D6+4 damage that way (for an average of 11 damage, with the potential of exploiting an enemy's Weakness, as well as exploiting potential Sneak Attack damage), but this only demonstrates that the Dex to Damage feat is more powerful (though that doesn't mean Double Slice can't be taken later, just that it can't be taken by 1st level along with Dex to Damage, which is a fair balancing point).

Unfortunately, this doesn't factor in Sneak Attack, which puts the Rogue 0.5 damage ahead of the Fighter, but since this is a circumstantial bonus, it won't really apply until the Rogue can reliably do this (assumedly with Master Stealth and a proper Skill Feat, where they can use it at any time, and I remember this being a feat mentioned in the blogs), and isn't something symptomatic of Dex to Damage.

Let's up the ante to 13th level. Here, the Fighter has Legendary Weapon proficiency, a +3 Greataxe, and the Rogue has Legendary Stealth with the ability to use Stealth at any time (and thereby utilize Sneak Attack practically on a whim), while wielding 2 +2 Shortswords. Each will have +4 to their main stats (+2 from levels, +2 from an item) to compensate, thereby granting a 22 (or +6 modifier) to their main scores.

The Fighter will have 4D12+6 per swing, averaging to approximately 32 damage per hit. If he uses Power Attack (with an additional dice of scaling due to the level increase), he deals 6D12+6 with two actions, totalling to 45 damage. If he instead attacks twice, he deals 8D12+12, for an average of 65 damage, which is pretty strong. This doesn't include any special stuff he gets for having Legendary Weapon proficiency, which I imagine there are several (such as specialized critical benefits).

The Rogue will have 3D6+6 per swing from the weapon, with an additional 6D6 Sneak Attack, averaging to approximately 37.5 damage per swing. Do note, however, that the major portion of this damage comes from Sneak Attack, and not weapon damage (which only clocks in at 16.5 if Sneak Attack isn't included, which is only half of the Fighter's damage per swing). This can be doubled with the Double Slice feat for 75 damage, exploiting Weaknesses as normal, but as with above, the majority of this damage comes from Sneak Attack, with Dex to Damage compromising ~15-20% of the damage being dealt.

If there are D8 Agile weapons, then the Rogue would be doing one or two more additional points of damage, which can help sway things a bit more, but compared to a high end damaging weapon, it won't win out by itself. Also note that this does cost a feat that the Rogue could instead spend to get more skills and such, meaning it is still a valuable and reasonable choice.


Now compare the damage against a Dex build without the feat, using strength to damage with strength 2 modifiers behind Dex!

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I like Paizo's more recent approach to focusing on DEX, which is shifters grace and lethal grace.

I would like to see a general feat that says if you use DEX to attack and STR to damage, you get to add half your level to damage.

IF you have 10 STR so be it. You still get to add half your level. If you invest in both, then you get even more damage out of it.


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Secret Wizard wrote:

DEX-to-damage is not needed. This system allows MAD characters to work really well.

But there's a large vocal part of the fanbase that wants it. And thus, an option should appear.

As a general rule, granting specific mechanical requests to players is going to be a bad idea. If dex based characters are falling behind other characters, then dex to damage should be on the list of solutions, but doing it the other way means creating unnecessary problems. If you're saying the stats are balanced enough for MAD characters to work well, then there's no reason to consider dex to damage.

If there's some other problem that dex to damage is solving, I'd love to hear it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ErichAD wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

DEX-to-damage is not needed. This system allows MAD characters to work really well.

But there's a large vocal part of the fanbase that wants it. And thus, an option should appear.

As a general rule, granting specific mechanical requests to players is going to be a bad idea. If dex based characters are falling behind other characters, then dex to damage should be on the list of solutions, but doing it the other way means creating unnecessary problems. If you're saying the stats are balanced enough for MAD characters to work well, then there's no reason to consider dex to damage.

If there's some other problem that dex to damage is solving, I'd love to hear it.

Yeah seriously. Why don't we get our hands on the game and see how dex based melee characters feel before already giving opinions. That's basically giving away your bias if you already want to get dex to damage before knowing if dex characters will fall behind.

Scarab Sages

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I'd rather Dex add to combat in a different way than Strength. I don't want it to simply be, "Same mechanics, different stat." That's boring to me. And in the case of PF1, led to some of the most broken characters being Dex-based melee because then Melee suddenly became more SAD than MAD.

I'd rather see Dex somehow add to the chance to crit. Perhaps subtract the mod for the number you need to get to crit. Perhaps instead of AC +10, they would need to get AC +10 (-Dex Mod). But to get this, you'd need to take a feet and lose the ability to add Strength to damage.


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...Doesn't dex to damage already have the disadvantage that the base damage die for most Agile weapons is already smaller than the base damage die for most non-Agile weapons?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tallow wrote:

I'd rather Dex add to combat in a different way than Strength. I don't want it to simply be, "Same mechanics, different stat." That's boring to me. And in the case of PF1, led to some of the most broken characters being Dex-based melee because then Melee suddenly became more SAD than MAD.

I'd rather see Dex somehow add to the chance to crit. Perhaps subtract the mod for the number you need to get to crit. Perhaps instead of AC +10, they would need to get AC +10 (-Dex Mod). But to get this, you'd need to take a feet and lose the ability to add Strength to damage.

I think dex adding to crit in someway is an interesting thought. I just find dex to damage a really boring band-aid to people who want dex to act exactly like strength for whatever reason.


The Dex to damage deal seems like a vestige of latter day 3.5/4th Ed that some will not let go of, apparently even the designers of 5th Ed, much to my chagrin.

Scarab Sages

wizzardman wrote:
...Doesn't dex to damage already have the disadvantage that the base damage die for most Agile weapons is already smaller than the base damage die for most non-Agile weapons?

Sure, but in PF1, that really doesn't matter much. The difference between a d4 or d6 for a light weapon (or rapier) and a d8 or 2d4 for a one-handed weapon isn't significant enough when you are getting +8 or higher for Dex to damage (plus all the other things that can add to damage.) There isn't much difference between a 1d4 +21 damage (small wakizashi) and 1d8 +21 damage (medium Longsword).

In PF2 that seems to be slightly different as the weapon die becomes much more important as lots of things multiply the number of dice used. But I'm still not sure its significant enough to matter as much as some make it out to be.

Scarab Sages

Dire Ursus wrote:
Tallow wrote:

I'd rather Dex add to combat in a different way than Strength. I don't want it to simply be, "Same mechanics, different stat." That's boring to me. And in the case of PF1, led to some of the most broken characters being Dex-based melee because then Melee suddenly became more SAD than MAD.

I'd rather see Dex somehow add to the chance to crit. Perhaps subtract the mod for the number you need to get to crit. Perhaps instead of AC +10, they would need to get AC +10 (-Dex Mod). But to get this, you'd need to take a feet and lose the ability to add Strength to damage.

I think dex adding to crit in someway is an interesting thought. I just find dex to damage a really boring band-aid to people who want dex to act exactly like strength for whatever reason.

Agreed. Find some way to make it really important to attacking if the right feat is taken, but make it different than strength.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dire Ursus wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

DEX-to-damage is not needed. This system allows MAD characters to work really well.

But there's a large vocal part of the fanbase that wants it. And thus, an option should appear.

As a general rule, granting specific mechanical requests to players is going to be a bad idea. If dex based characters are falling behind other characters, then dex to damage should be on the list of solutions, but doing it the other way means creating unnecessary problems. If you're saying the stats are balanced enough for MAD characters to work well, then there's no reason to consider dex to damage.

If there's some other problem that dex to damage is solving, I'd love to hear it.

Yeah seriously. Why don't we get our hands on the game and see how dex based melee characters feel before already giving opinions. That's basically giving away your bias if you already want to get dex to damage before knowing if dex characters will fall behind.

Mark Seifter wrote that 1d6 one-handed finesse weapons compared to 1d8 one-handed non-finesse weapons in PF2

So DEX-based builds getting lesser damage is already a thing in PF2

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:

The title should read: "that should make most people happy", of course.

Let me preface this proposal with the considerations in mind when formulating it:

1. DEX-to-damage should be an option. I don't find it necessary for the game, but there's enough traction and history behind it that it should be present in some way.

2. DEX-to-damage should a General Feat available at 1st level. It should be a General Feat to allow any class to take it. As it affects character development and could be integral to some concepts, it should be readily available at 1st level for players to pick it up.

3. DEX-to-damage should have a cost. If DEX-to-damage were a General Feat with no other caveats, the opportunity cost of it would be very low. Sure, you have less damage potential than a STR character. But damage is a very narrow dimension. By focusing fully on DEX and eschewing an ability score completely, the DEX-to-damage character is presented with many more choices and narrative power, as a high STR score cannot compete with a mental score in terms of versatility.

4. DEX-to-damage should not be appealing to every single Finesse user. This is a personal take, but I do believe that mixed scores should have their own reward. STR 14/DEX 18 is as much as a character expression as STR 10/DEX 18, and it shouldn't be punished by making it unviable in every way.

With this in mind, I present you Finesse Striker, the General Feat:

FINESSE STRIKER
Feat 1
General, Combat
When you attack with a finesse melee weapon, you may add your Dexterity modifier to damage instead of your Strength modifier. While using this feat, any attacks you make beyond the first take an additional -1 penalty to your attack roll.

Now, wording on the second part might be wrong, but you get the idea – it's reverse agile.
What does this General Feat accomplish?

1. It enables DEX-to-damage from 1st level to every single class.

2. It's penalty isn't...

SW, I am in awe of your willingness to find a solution for people who look to play frontliners not relying on high STR

Thanks a lot


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Tallow wrote:
In PF2 that seems to be slightly different as the weapon die becomes much more important as lots of things multiply the number of dice used. But I'm still not sure its significant enough to matter as much as some make it out to be.

Actually it makes a world of difference, consider the following scenario a rogue with 22 dex, and a fighter with 22 str, both have +5 weapons, since their ability scores are the same I'm ignoring the damage it adds.

The rogues +5 d8 weapon deals 4.5x5=22.5 damage.

The fighters +5 d12 greatsword deals 6.5x5=32.5.

The fighter has a +10 damage advantage which is definitely significant, in pf1 he'd have only had a +2 advantage (although he'd have gotten 1.5 str), which isn't that much.


I wrote this somewhere else, but what if Dex-to-Damage came from a feat, but only gave half-mod? Until a later level or second feat, that is. Or something like that, anyway.


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Why not Dex-to-HP?


RafaelBraga wrote:
Why not Dex-to-HP?

At this point, why not...


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Why not just have every ability score do the exact same thing? Int to melee damage, attack bonus, perception, spell casting, HP, AC, All saving throws, Weiner size, etc.


I would like to use my Str instead of Dex for AC when I have my shield raised (as I'm actively blocking). As well as the ability to use Str instead of Dex for thrown weapon accuracy.
Lets see how Dexterity likes it when we take its shiny things. Not that I don't still want non-Rogues to have access to Finesse Striker.


Dire Ursus wrote:
Why not just have every ability score do the exact same thing? Int to melee damage, attack bonus, perception, spell casting, HP, AC, All saving throws, Weiner size, etc.

Yep, let's finagle it so we can key everything off of Cha: AC, attack bonus, damage, saves, HP, Initiative, the lot!


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We really only need one ability score: Coolness. The cooler you look, the better you are at everything.


Cantriped wrote:
We really only need one ability score: Coolness. The cooler you look, the better you are at everything.

Absolutely, if there is one final homogeneous way to measure all of this: "...how cool is that dude/chick?"


Arachnofiend wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I genuinely want some feats that give you cool stuff when using dex-to-hit and str-to-damage just to up the opportunity cost of dex-to-damage.

Also some cool stuff for str builds defensively for the same reason.

I generally think that the 'cool' thing for keeping up dex and strength is the benefit of using either stat to hit and damage if either stat is lowered/damaged/drained/ect. This is especially important if alchemists can make free poisons and some of those lower stats.

As for cool defensive str options, I thought that's what heavy armor was.

This... might be one of the most pointless suggestions I have ever seen. No one is going to keep STR and DEX maxed out at the expense of all other stats (which I'm not even sure is possible with PF2 character generation) on the off chance that you get dex-drained and your strength is temporarily higher.

I've never been a fan of the dual stat idea myself: I was just stating what you could do if your choice WAS keeping both of those stats high. I sure wasn't advocating/suggesting maxing both stats as a great idea.


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Realistically every PF2 character is going to be able to keep 4 of 6 stats in the "Respectable" category. If your rapier fencer is Str 14 at level 5 that's probably fine provided you can get something beneficial in lieu of dex-to-damage.

Scarab Sages

willuwontu wrote:
Tallow wrote:
In PF2 that seems to be slightly different as the weapon die becomes much more important as lots of things multiply the number of dice used. But I'm still not sure its significant enough to matter as much as some make it out to be.

Actually it makes a world of difference, consider the following scenario a rogue with 22 dex, and a fighter with 22 str, both have +5 weapons, since their ability scores are the same I'm ignoring the damage it adds.

The rogues +5 d8 weapon deals 4.5x5=22.5 damage.

The fighters +5 d12 greatsword deals 6.5x5=32.5.

The fighter has a +10 damage advantage which is definitely significant, in pf1 he'd have only had a +2 advantage (although he'd have gotten 1.5 str), which isn't that much.

This is as it should be frankly. But my grippli ninja held her ground at level 19 with a single Wakizashi. Once you get to the level where you start having +5 weapons, 10 damage per hit really doesn't matter a whole bunch, when you are averaging 70+ damage per hit, and usually each character is taking down one if not two or more mooks per round (and possibly even the BBEG in one round.)

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