So I just want to make sure that I am understanding the Adaptive Biochains correctly.
If I am to understand this I can choose any cybernetic or biotech and this basically becomes that augmentation for 10% more?
So for example if I am 3rd level I have 8000 credits I can use the Adaptive Biochains to duplicate Mk 2 Dermal Plating for 7645 credits and still count as a level 3 item?
I guess I am trying to figure out what the weakness is for this. For example this seems to be pretty amazing for Society Play. The ability to buy something 3-5 levels above your level for a 10% increase.
Am I missing something?
You probably want to ask this in the PFS forum, but i believe the point of adaptive biochains is to be 99% cosmetic and 1% "i don't want my arm to be hacked when they come up with the ability to do that" . I don't think you can circumvent the item level requirement this way.
Adaptive Biochains does not alter the base item's level. Level 3 simply implies the earliest you can purchase a Biochained augment (as there are level 1 augmentations).
However, that's my interpretation of it. Largely because of character WBL, and the item level system. If I am wrong though, here's the big downside. You don't want a 3rd level item later in the game.
Being of third level means say, your Biochains arm, has the hardness and hit points of a level 3 item. Or say your Speed Suspension. There's suddenly a glaring weak point of having 11 hardness (being generous and considering it on par with weapon or armor, if you aren't it's hardness 8), and 30 hit points (again generous, if not 8).
You really don't want an enemy able to full attack your fragile systems and literally tear them off of you. There's also the downside of low level making targeted hacking easier, so anything that targets Bioware specifically would have no problem shutting you off. The Biotechnician theme in Pact Worlds already has an ability for shutting your own Bioware down, so the framework is there for it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I only cited SFS as an example for item buying an all. That is it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You really don't want an enemy able to full attack your fragile systems and literally tear them off of you.
Thats absolutely NOT how it works. You cannot target part of a creature without a special ability to do so. Once installed the legs are your legs, the same as anyone elses, the item level doesn't matter. You cannot literally disarm someone because they have a prosthetic limg
You really don't want an enemy able to full attack your fragile systems and literally tear them off of you.Thats absolutely NOT how it works. You cannot target part of a creature without a special ability to do so. Once installed the legs are your legs, the same as anyone elses, the item level doesn't matter. You cannot literally disarm someone because they have a prosthetic limg
Sunder can apply to certain ware, such as a Polyhand. A corrosive atmosphere would deal 1 acid damage a minute to your ware. and various critical effects can literally "disarm" you regardless of ware. Etc. My apologies for overgeneralizing my statement rather than giving specific examples of how exactly having an HP 30 part of your body would be a major disadvantage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sunder can apply to certain ware, such as a Polyhand.
No.
That is part of the character. You damage a creature by damaging their hit points, at which point its gumby damage.
Let's consult the book:
CRB 208
"These are modifications to your body that give
you special abilities and bonuses. Once installed, they become
a part of your body and generally can’t be affected by abilities
that destroy or disable objects or target technological items
or creatures. As far as attacks and abilities are concerned, a
cybernetic or vat-grown arm is no more (or less) vulnerable than
your original biological limb."
"Cybernetics are
more than just machine implants: they are complex meldings of
technology and the living host’s own organs. This allows them
to be hardened against assaults that affect other technologies
in ways robots and other entirely technological creatures can’t.
Cybernetics are not subject to any effect or attack that targets
technology unless it specifies that it affects cybernetics."
I couldn't find something that targets cybernetics specifically.
Sundering a polyhand might be a reference to this bit, but it's a stretch:
CRB 210
"The adamantine construction makes the polyhand
extremely durable (see page 408 in Chapter 11 for more
information about adamantine). This doesn’t change the
amount of unarmed strike damage, no matter the form
your polyhand is in. The polyhand can’t maintain structural
integrity if extended too far, so it can’t assume a form more
than one and a half feet long in any dimension. Consequently,
it can’t extend your reach."
It seems augments can only be taken off by a critical wound or similar, but can't be treated as objects.
Your bolding choices are odd.
I'd point out:
CRB 208
"These are modifications to your body that give
you special abilities and bonuses. Once installed, they become
a part of your body and generally can’t be affected by abilities
that destroy or disable objects or target technological items
or creatures. As far as attacks and abilities are concerned, a
cybernetic or vat-grown arm is no more (or less) vulnerable than
your original biological limb."
Your highlight is from a reference specific to arms or prosthetics, not all cybernetics. And I agree that a prosthetic arm is an illegal target for the sunder maneuver. And I've highlighted the generally in there because it's a doorway for exception, whether pre-existing or in future releases.
Your second quote, again you've highlighted a sentence fragment, where the entirety is about effects that specifically target technology, not an encompassing everything. Saying cyberware is not tech for abilities and attacks that specifically target tech.
Sundering a Polyhand comes from the fact it becomes tools or kits, and tools and kits are both viable targets for the Sunder action. Any object that can be easily drawn as a move action, whether currently in-hand or on their person somewhere.
CRB 246
"You deal damage to one object held in the target’s hand or accessible on its body. The object must be something that could be drawn easily by the target as a move action (see Draw or Sheathe a Weapon on page 247). The damage is reduced by an amount equal to the object’s hardness (see Smashing an Object page 409)."
As it stands, GMs can rule either way on it. However, it sets a precedent. Looking at existing things, armor is not subject to a Sunder, however power armor does not make weapons in their weapon slots immune to Sunder. If the Polyhand is a tool, it needs to be subject to rules effecting tools. A Polyhand grappler for example cannot make it immune to having its line cut "because it's cyberware", and later if a piece of cyberware allows you to add a weapon onto your person, that weapon cannot be in violation of normal weapon rules without the addition of specific rules (example it cannot be disarmed).
However, Sunder rules aside, the other points of having low item level stand. If an ability is able to target bioware (as this discussion is on Biochains item level), then being third level would have enormously low DCs to resist effects, and incredibly few hitpoints to avoid being destroyed. Regardless of the source.
Your bolding choices are odd.
Yeah, they are out of this galaxy odd.
Sundering a Polyhand comes from the fact it becomes tools or kits, and tools and kits are both viable targets for the Sunder action. Any object that can be easily drawn as a move action, whether currently in-hand or on their person somewhere.
I'll be even odder:
CRB 210
"With either a mental command
or a programmable interface built into the hand, you can
reconfigure your hand into the shape of various tools. "
I'll borrow your quote and add some oddness:
CRB 246
"You deal damage to one object held in the target’s hand or accessible on its body. The object must be something that could be drawn easily by the target as a move action (see Draw or Sheathe a Weapon on page 247). The damage is reduced by an amount equal to the object’s hardness (see Smashing an Object page 409)."
CRB 210
"As a move
action, you can switch the setting, causing the adamantine pieces
to realign into the shape of the chosen tool."
So a polyhand is neither an object nor it is drawn.
I don't doubt we will have effects specifics against augmentations, maybe some spells even do it already (couldn't find anything with a quick ctrl+f).
But sundering a polyhand doesn't seen to be one.
Neil - SFS DOES limit your purchase options to level + 1, or Level +2 for CRB items. Part of the rules of play.
OP: I don't have any text to back this up, but I would say that the Adaptive biochains become whatever augment you apply them to, with the 10% extra cost; that includes level, minimum 3. So a Level 19 cybernetic mark 3 whatever becomes a level 19 Adaptive Bio-chained cybernetic Mark 3 whatever.
I bet the feeling that Adaptive Biochains may actually end up disappearing as an item and simply be replaced with a line under Biotech stating "Any cybernetic augmentation can be created as a biotech augmentation and installed for 110% of the augmentation’s normal cost." As this is the way they went with Necrografts in the Armory.
Speaking of, it also covered the precedent I mentioned earlier in this thread before Armory's release. The Weaponized Prosthesis uses the new Integrated property, and Integrated does not grant weapons any special immunities to Sunder or Disarm, and the Bone Blade necrograft while immune to Disarm can be Sundered.
This currently makes the Polyhand an exception to the rule, unless at a future date they change things.
Neil - SFS DOES limit your purchase options to level + 1, or Level +2 for CRB items. Part of the rules of play.
OP: I don't have any text to back this up, but I would say that the Adaptive biochains become whatever augment you apply them to, with the 10% extra cost; that includes level, minimum 3. So a Level 19 cybernetic mark 3 whatever becomes a level 19 Adaptive Bio-chained cybernetic Mark 3 whatever.
Nitpick: SFS limits your purchases to Level+1 from the CRB, Level+0 for supplements other than the CRB, and Level+2 for any item found on a Chronicle sheet from one of the SFS adventures.
Yeah, you definitely cannot sunder augmentations (any augmentations), or even specifically target them with anything existing in the rules right now.
Dracomicron - Thank you for the correction! I do not actually play SFS, so I was going from (faulty) memory.
I like to think that biochained augments are a great way to get around the cybernetics detectors and other such devices we're likely to see in the future.
I honestly have been using Biochains to support the character concept. She's an Icon and it keeps things "all natural".
Related biochains question:
Adaptive biochains can also be used to replace any existing cybernetic with a biotech version of the same device; doing so has the same price and time as introducing a new adaptive biochain.
So, if I want a biochain speed suspension, I can get it for 1,900 * 1.1 = 2,090.
If I already have a speed suspension I got for regular price, making it biochains is
1) 2,090, just like buying it from scratch
or
2) 190, just like the normal biochains upcharge
It reads like #1, but that's just the normal rule: you can already replace augmentations with other augmentations.
It’s #1.
Adaptive biochains can also be used to replace any existing cybernetic with a biotech version of the same device; doing so has the same price and time as introducing a new adaptive biochain.
Buying from scratch unfortunately
Some "extra augmentation slot" abilities (Geneturge mystic connection, biotechnician theme) require both (or maybe one for the theme) to be biotech, so adaptive biochains are good if you're using those options to expand your pool of available augmentations that you can combine.
As far as i can tell ....
1 Adaptive Biochains should go off the level of what your turning them into ...way to many problems otherwise (like why can't I use it to buy so&so its only 5 levels higher, I have the money and adaptive biochains it only 3rd).... I agree it should be worked just like necrographs clause for simulating other augments (but 110% and just cybernetics)
2 You can not sunder a augment or prosthetic unless it specifically says so (like bone blade) ..it is part of the creature and represented by it's Hp ....With weaponized prosthesis you would be attacking the weapon in it, not the actual prosthetic (also integrated weapons take 10 minutes to put in and take out ..sunder language "The object must be something that could be drawn easily by the target as a move action (see Draw or Sheathe a Weapon on page 247) seems to state sunder can not target integrated weapons (if there is a official ruling on that let me know)
3 Full Price to replace existing tech with biochains