Musket with Fast Ordnance

[TheMonkeyFish]

So... I've had my eye on the Gun Chemist for the better half of the week, and I keep coming back to this question... Are Gun Chemists able to make a Full Round attack by using the Fast Ordnance Discovery using the Musket? Really the only question I have, but I'd like to know the answer. Thinking of making a Musket Chemist themed after the old west.

[Cavall]

I'd say no. Capacity of a musket is 1. Though by level 8 (when you can take it) you'll likely have a higher capacity gun. In which case then yes.

[Taja the Barbarian]

To the best of my knowledge, the only practical way to get a full attack routine with a Musket is if you have three levels in Gunslinger (Musket Master):

Fast Musket(Ex) wrote:

At 3rd level, as long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm. This deed replaces the utility shot deed.

Early Two-Handed firearms take a full round action to reload.

• Rapid Reload feat reduces that by a step.
• Alchemical Cartridges reduce that by another step.

That still leaves your reload as a Move action, preventing you from using your iterative attacks. The only way to eliminate this gap is through the 'Fast Musket' ability, which reduces your base reload time to a standard action.

Technically, the Cylinder Rifle is an early two-handed firearm that can make iterative attacks (you get 8 shots before you need to reload, but reloading takes much longer than ususal) but the way Alchemical Ordnance reads, you need to charge your ammo as you load it, and it only stays charged for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence modifiers, which seems awkward at best.

[Meirril]

Cylinder Riffle is workable, but it requires planning. You aren't allowed to use alchemical cartridges with the Cylinder Riffle and it takes 2 full rounds to load it. If you have the Rapid Reload feat this is cut down to 1 full round action and you can use Alchemical Ordnance to charge as many of these shots as you wish to during that round. Now you have Int mod rounds to empty those special shots out.

Normally you can only use 1 Alchemical Ordnance each round, but with the discovery you could make all 8 rounds Alchemical Ordnance and do multiple shots in a round. Now if the fight ends early you're kind of screwed because the spells you loaded up will go to waste.

You'r actually much better off with a pistol. That is normally a standard action to load. With Rapid Reload feat and Alchemical Cartridges you knock that down to a Free Action that you can perform between shots. Get a Dragoon Pistol to boost your range to 30'. Remember you'll need a free hand to reload, no 2 pistol shenanigans. Now you can decide on each and every shot if you want to use Alchemical Ordnance or just a standard bullet.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Meirril wrote:

Cylinder Riffle is workable, but it requires planning. You aren't allowed to use alchemical cartridges with the Cylinder Riffle and it takes 2 full rounds to load it. If you have the Rapid Reload feat this is cut down to 1 full round action and you can use Alchemical Ordnance to charge as many of these shots as you wish to during that round. Now you have Int mod rounds to empty those special shots out.

Normally you can only use 1 Alchemical Ordnance each round, but with the discovery you could make all 8 rounds Alchemical Ordnance and do multiple shots in a round. Now if the fight ends early you're kind of screwed because the spells you loaded up will go to waste.

Like I said, awkward at best. Unless you are ambushing someone and can load right before the attack, you're almost certainly not going to be able to make a full attack for the first couple of rounds of the fight (at least one round to load, and probably a move action to get into a good firing position on the second round). Depending on your group, there may be nothing left to shoot at this point.

Also, misfiring your first shot would be extremely annoying: Beyond the damage you would take, you'd have to start loading all over again...

Meirril wrote:

You'r actually much better off with a pistol. That is normally a standard action to load. With Rapid Reload feat and Alchemical Cartridges you knock that down to a Free Action that you can perform between shots. Get a Dragoon Pistol to boost your range to 30'. Remember you'll need a free hand to reload, no 2 pistol shenanigans. Now you can decide on each and every shot if you want to use Alchemical Ordnance or just a standard bullet.

Actually, he's an alchemist: It's pretty easy to get an extra hand or two for reloading while dual-wielding.

Unfortunately, the Dragoon Pistol + Dragoon Cartridge combination has a similar 'front loading' issue: You load three rounds as a full round action (reduced to a standard action with Rapid Reload), which means you will probably not attack until the second round of combat(but at least it would probably be a full attack). Under normal circumstances, I could see dual-wielding these pistol (you get three shots before you need to reload) but it doesn't mix well with Alchemical Ordinance: You'd probably be better off with a normal pistol + rapid reload + alchemical cartridges.

[Meirril]

Ugh. Didn't realize about Dragoon Cartridge having a full round reload. Yeah, that is no good. Which mean our Gun Chemist here would probably want a +1 distance pistol (+2 total enchantment) so he can get a 40' range increment. 20' is a bit uncomfortable.

Alternatively try to get your hands on a Revolver, or a Riffle. An Advanced Firearm uses metalic cartridges and already reloads as a move action. Rapid Reload reduces that to free. If you make it yourself with Gunsmithing that is only 4 days and 400gp for a revovlver, or 5 days and 500gp for a riffle. Ammo becomes more expensive but totally worth it.

[TheMonkeyFish]

I'll check the advice out, thanks everyone!

For now, I'll probably stay with a Musket until level 2 when I can't make changes to the character.

[Kristal Moonhand]

I'd just ask the DM to let me use a rifle when I can afford it.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Kristal Moonhand wrote:

I'd just ask the DM to let me use a rifle when I can afford it.

Allowing advanced firearms is a line many GMs are reluctant to cross: They are a significant power upgrade (generally faster firing, longer range, and more reliable) and they can change the overall feel of the game.

Your GM may allow it, but I wouldn't make any plans before asking...

[TheMonkeyFish]

"any advanced firearms on Table 3-4 and advanced firearms on Table 3-5 and are not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play." sadly.

[Jaeru]

TheMonkeyFish wrote:

"any advanced firearms on Table 3-4 and advanced firearms on Table 3-5 and are not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play." sadly.

Responding to an old message I know, BUT, there is an AP that allows a full rebuild AND the use of a revolver after completing the final book.

[Meirril]

Jaeru wrote:

TheMonkeyFish wrote:

"any advanced firearms on Table 3-4 and advanced firearms on Table 3-5 and are not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play." sadly.

Responding to an old message I know, BUT, there is an AP that allows a full rebuild AND the use of a revolver after completing the final book.

There is an AP that gives players access to Modern Firearms and another totally unrelated AP that gives access to High Technology. But just because they exist in Golorian I wouldn't allow a character outside of that specific AP to have a laser pistol, or to use a shadowcrafted weapon as a gravity gun, or a Maxium Machinegun even if they are rules for it.

And other GMs may have certain conditions in which they would allow it. If you have a globe trotting campaign and you pass through Numeria and fight the Technic League I don't see why you wouldn't give the players some high tech loot to have fun with. But that really is a question of what the GM is willing to introduce or tolerate.

[Zwordsman]

I still feel that Paddle Pistol is likely the best firearm for a gunchemist. Can use all the speicalty stuff. has multi barrels. Leave one with normal ammo. one with special alch shot (dragon's breath). One with a silver or adamantine or non lethal shot salt)

Rifles in pathfinder in general are fairly fubar
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Well if you're a pure alchemist. that efficient bandolier reload as a swift action would help for a large portion of your time at least. Baring rapid fire and such (but you're pretty short on feats and bab in the first place)
(AS A SIDE NOTE: why is that a belt item. when the mundane-and any and all other magical bandoliers, are chest items? to this day I still assume that must be an accident)
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There is another idea. Well its a weird one but.
Spell Cartridges techincally still "loads" the weapon, just with a force bullet instead of other ones. Would be something you should clear with your GM first though.
Strictly reading and common sense wise. There is no other word I can think of than "load" for the creation of the force bullet within the barrel.

This won't work till high level but you can get alchemist caster levels with Spell Knowledge (I believe its called) discvoery. This nets you the ability to cast 1 spell from the wizard spell list using your extra slots-and it is a right and proper spell. So you get the arcane caster level.
Then you pick up Arcane Strike.
Then spell cart.

That is a pretty high investment, but it likely would work. But again ask GM if its considered "loading" the firearm.. but I honestly can't see what else you'd call that. Same loading as any other magical loading to me. Same as the belt that loads via a swift action. Same as a pistol of inifnite sky. (amusingly the latter actually has to be loaded once the first time but never again. as it never has to be 'reloaded' but still needs to be loaded after creation)